Reformed Only! Masoretic Text (MT)

JustAsIam77

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You could never take the pulpit and say what you guys are saying without causing doubt among the people of God. You just can’t do it. So, practically, it doesn’t matter what we post on CF, the average person in the pew doesn’t need to know any of it. It's just intellectual mumbo jumbo. They believe the Bible they hold in their hands is the very word of God and it is authoritative.

So honestly, it doesn’t matter what intellectuals say or what they believe, it’s just not practical. This is why you never hear sermons preached on the subject.

Yours in the Lord,


jm
This!
 
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JM

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Protestants do not deny oral tradition, it is the continuing of oral tradition and the point in time where or if it ceased and the degree of authority ascribed to oral tradition versus written tradition that is the question. Our Confessions have authority in our Churches, it's just they do not have the same degree of authority as Scripture. They are of lesser authority. I am fine with the notion of ancient oral and written Christian tradition accepted with an equal level of authority, but ancient oral and written tradition should not be conflated with modern oral and or written tradition, one would have to presuppose a continualism which does not exist...though some argue it does, I deny it.



I agree the canon is settled, and not because of halfway early Church councils, but because of the providence's of God, because it is His Word, it is His canon. It is because of man, because of man's efforts from his nature and presuppositions to influence texts that textual criticism of the lower type is a necessity, and because of manuscript discoveries and means of transportation (to have access) and access to a greater abundance of manuscripts as time has passed. The ultimate end of textual criticism from a Christian worldview is to crush all doubts, to give Christian confidence in the English translations they read from.
Yeah, like I already posted, try that in from the pulpit. As I prepare to preach my first sermon it's obvious this kind of thinking doesn't fly with the people of God, just those in the ivory towers of theological speculation and unbelief. (not that you disbelieve, but are more heady than the average Christian, as am I)

To understand the Reformed Confessions the way modern Reformed Christians do is ahistorical and ignores the plains fact that believers need to make their final appeal to the immediately inspired word of God...the Bible and the Bible as it is preserved, not some phantom originals. Christians need to be able to appeal to scriptures to support doctrinal positions and as you know the Westminster Divines looked to scripture that is now called into question today. This rips the carpet out from underneath us.

Still love ya Bro, we just disagree and the issue must remain closed for me. From our private conversations you know why.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Erik Nelson

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... I am fine with the notion of ancient oral and written Christian tradition accepted with an equal level of authority, but ancient oral and written tradition should not be conflated with modern oral and or written tradition, one would have to presuppose a continualism which does not exist...though some argue it does, I deny it.



I agree the canon is settled, and not because of halfway early Church councils, but because of the providence's of God, because it is His Word, it is His canon. It is because of man, because of man's efforts from his nature and presuppositions to influence texts that textual criticism of the lower type is a necessity, and because of manuscript discoveries and means of transportation (to have access) and access to a greater abundance of manuscripts as time has passed. The ultimate end of textual criticism from a Christian worldview is to crush all doubts, to give Christian confidence in the English translations they read from.
John 16, verse 13.
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.


If the Holy Spirit guides unto truth. Whilst the church veered away from the truth. Sometime after the Council of Nicea. Then when did the Holy Spirit leave the church? When did it depart Christendom? And where did it go?

Is not the Christian age and the church of the Messiah supposed to be eternal? How could the Holy Spirit ever depart the presence of the word of God in the church?
 
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John 16, verse 13.
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.

If the Holy Spirit guides unto truth. Whilst the church veered away from the truth. Sometime after the Council of Nicea. Then when did the Holy Spirit leave the church? When did it depart Christendom? And where did it go?

Is not the Christian age and the church of the Messiah supposed to be eternal? How could the Holy Spirit ever depart the presence of the word of God in the church?

Erik, I like questions, but I do not find these appropriate in this forum (because of assumptions about the Church and Spirit which are not there), not with the Reformed understanding of Church. We, you and me are a part of the royal priesthood of believers (Hebrews 7:23–28). The Holy Spirit does not leave believers, the Holy Spirit is with me whether I am attending a Catholics mass, an EO Church, or a Protestant Church. Wherever I go the Holy Spirit is with me, it does not mean I will continue to return to wherever I go, the Spirit may lead me away or have me stay for a time, I do not know the mind of the Spirit, anymore than I can know the will of God beyond what He has revealed in Scripture.

Your questions do not even apply to what I said, sorry. Maybe look into the meaning of cessationism further? We are not adding to or taking away from canon here, neither have Christians before us throughout the ages, and neither does an established and settled canon presuppose the Spirit leaving believers in Christ.
 
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JM

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I just read this summary and I believe it's valid. There are two streams of thought on this issue.

Quote:

CT position- We have discovered lost texts that take away or add to what has been past down through the church.

TR position- We have the text (or canon) which has been preserved through the church and kept pure through all ages.
 
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Oct 21, 2003
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CT position- We have discovered lost texts that take away or add to what has been past down through the church.

From reading Dr. Wallace, that is not the MT position, mss disoveries and careful analysis and comparisons of textual traditions show we have more than 100% (cannot remember the exact percentage above 100%) of the canon.

TR position- We have the text (or canon) which has been preserved through the church and kept pure through all ages.

This presupposes a pure Church throughout the ages, why the Great Schism, why the Reformation?

From memory, I recall a passage from TR, a passage used to support the doctrine of the Trinity, the passage about Spirit, blood, and water, being a Catholic addition. Not true?
 
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JM

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From reading Dr. Wallace, that is not the MT position, mss disoveries and careful analysis and comparisons of textual traditions show we have more than 100% (cannot remember the exact percentage above 100%) of the canon.

Sorry Brother, the quote mentioned CT not MT and having read Bart D. Ehrman...that's exactly what the Critical Text method employs.

This presupposes a pure Church throughout the ages, why the Great Schism, why the Reformation?

It doesn't. It presupposes that God uses sinful men and woman to transmit the New Testament text without blemish. It presupposes God superintends the copying of the manuscripts and is therefore, "kept pure in all ages..."

From memory, I recall a passage from TR, a passage used to support the doctrine of the Trinity, the passage about Spirit, blood, and water, being a Catholic addition. Not true?

1 John 5:7

If you scroll through you will see scholarly responses to the objection of 1 John 5:7 and that's part of the problem. CT proponents deny there is a scholarly response to their textual witchcraft.

Nolan on 1 John 5:7: Johannine Comma post #35

Minute vs. adequate preservation: Johannine Comma

Pickering on the early history of the text: Johannine Comma

Holland on 1 John 5:7: Johannine Comma

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Sorry Brother, the quote mentioned CT not MT and having read Bart D. Ehrman...that's exactly what the Critical Text method employs.

Sorry I meant the Alexandrian textual family compared with the Byzantine textual family.

Bart is part of the 80% of non-believers Dr. Wallace refers to in the field of textual criticism.

It doesn't. It presupposes that God uses sinful men and woman to transmit the New Testament text without blemish. It presupposes God superintends the copying of the manuscripts and is therefore, "kept pure in all ages..."

I agree with what you're saying here, but surely you can see how the question arises, considering theological differences among the three primary divisions mentioned. It is a miracle in itself how through the course of two thousand years God kept sinful men from tainting His inscribed Word. I think a problem for us today is, with so many manuscript copies, we (Christians) will always have this debate over textual families. It is both a blessing and a curse to have so many manuscripts. On one hand the attestation and witness for the New Testament is overwhelming and second to none. On the other hand it greatly complicates teaching Bibliology, and can be disheartening and discouraging as you've noted, but the diligence and persistence of faith in the believing student will prevail and serve to strengthen faith, avoiding many fiery darts from the evil one.


1 John 5:7

If you scroll through you will see scholarly responses to the objection of 1 John 5:7 and that's part of the problem. CT proponents deny there is a scholarly response to their textual witchcraft.

Nolan on 1 John 5:7: Johannine Comma post #35

Minute vs. adequate preservation: Johannine Comma

Pickering on the early history of the text: Johannine Comma

Holland on 1 John 5:7: Johannine Comma

Yours in the Lord,

jm

:oldthumbsup: Thanks for this useful info.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Erik, I like questions, but I do not find these appropriate in this forum (because of assumptions about the Church and Spirit which are not there), not with the Reformed understanding of Church. We, you and me are a part of the royal priesthood of believers (Hebrews 7:23–28). The Holy Spirit does not leave believers, the Holy Spirit is with me whether I am attending a Catholics mass, an EO Church, or a Protestant Church. Wherever I go the Holy Spirit is with me, it does not mean I will continue to return to wherever I go, the Spirit may lead me away or have me stay for a time, I do not know the mind of the Spirit, anymore than I can know the will of God beyond what He has revealed in Scripture.

Your questions do not even apply to what I said, sorry. Maybe look into the meaning of cessationism further? We are not adding to or taking away from canon here, neither have Christians before us throughout the ages, and neither does an established and settled canon presuppose the Spirit leaving believers in Christ.
Well, some make the claim that the Holy Spirit resides in the church. And that there by the church is guided onto truth. There by the early church fathers. Wrote. Valuable. And truthful statements. The traditions that be there by founded. Are true invaluable?

If so church tradition was. And it is. Guided by the Holy Spirit. What is or is not true about the Holy Spirit? And where and with whom it dwells is a very important issue. Misspeaking about the Holy Spirit is the unpardonable sin. Not forgivable In any age
 
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JM

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Sorry I meant the Alexandrian textual family compared with the Byzantine textual family.

Bart is part of the 80% of non-believers Dr. Wallace refers to in the field of textual criticism.



I agree with what you're saying here, but surely you can see how the question arises, considering theological differences among the three primary divisions mentioned. It is a miracle in itself how through the course of two thousand years God kept sinful men from tainting His inscribed Word. I think a problem for us today is, with so many manuscript copies, we (Christians) will always have this debate over textual families. It is both a blessing and a curse to have so many manuscripts. On one hand the attestation and witness for the New Testament is overwhelming and second to none. On the other hand it greatly complicates teaching Bibliology, and can be disheartening and discouraging as you've noted, but the diligence and persistence of faith in the believing student will prevail and serve to strengthen faith, avoiding many fiery darts from the evil one.




:oldthumbsup: Thanks for this useful info.

:hug: Let's start at the beginning.

A Defense of Reformed (biblical) Presuppositional Apologetics by Cornelius VanTil
 
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