Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

JAL · Feb 20, 2019

ExTiff said:
Not at all. It is a metaphor. God is still doing it. You and I are but dust, and to dust we shall return. God did not grovel on the gound making mud pies with his hands when he made you or I. No! What makes you think God would have to have resorted to such physical activity with Adam? God made an entire universe by just 'speaking' it into existence. If God could do that, then I have no problem seeing the 'making of Adam' in a purely metaphorical sense. i.e. God brought the human race into physical existence, (without assuming God made Adam out of literal mud pies). Genesis Ch.1-5 is a story of beginnings, not a pottery making manual.

All this is so 'off thread' that a rabbit could run on it, -- or a lemming.
.

You see what you just did, right? I gave you a verse, and your response is to write it off as a metaphor. That's your prerogative. But the point is, that the actual VERSES favor my position. God formed the earth from waters. You can write it all off as metaphor. Again, That's your prerogative. But if you do that, you can no longer pretend to have proven your position from Scripture. In effect, you're just dismissing what it says.

God made an entire universe by just 'speaking' it into existence.

The Bible doesn't clearly state creatoin ex nihilo. It isn't clear on where the raw material came from. Noted Bible scholars already admit as much. You're just forcing your opinion on the text, on me, and on everyone else. That's called eisegesis.

JAL · Feb 20, 2019

ExTiff said:
metaphor
Dictionary result for metaphor
/ˈmɛtəfə,ˈmɛtəfɔː/
noun
noun: metaphor; plural noun: metaphors

a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
"when we speak of gene maps and gene mapping, we use a cartographic metaphor"
synonyms: figure of speech, figurative expression, image, trope, allegory, parable, analogy, comparison, symbol, emblem, word painting, word picture;
literaryconceit

a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else.
"the amounts of money being lost by the company were enough to make it a metaphor for an industry that was teetering"

THUS: God has been 'seen' by no one. John 1:18; 1 John 4:12. Wind being generally not itself seen is a metaphor for God, who has been 'seen' by no one.
The Holy Spirit is unseen, as are all things associated with the eternal Spirit of God. 2 Cor.4:18. In this case 'look for' is a metaphor. We could not physically 'look for' something metaphysical, which cannot be seen.
.

A metaphor is a DIFFERENT word used to describe something.
A car is not a metaphor for a car because it's the same word.
Pneuma is therefore not a metaphor for Pneuma.

Again, was God trying to confuse us? Evidently so, on standard readings of John 3. In their view:
At verse 5, Pneuma means Spirit.
At verse 8:
(A) In the first half of the verse Pneuma is a metaphor for Pneuma.
(B) In the second half, Pneuma actually means Pneuma.
(C) What about the rest of John's gospel? Does Pneuma actually mean Pnuma? Does it EVER mean Pneuma? Maybe it's ALWAYS just a metaphor for the work of Father and Son? So maybe there are only two of them?

See how you're just opening a can of worms, potentially denying the Trinity? Why all this confusion? Is God bent on confusing us? This was supposed to be the Son of Gods's MAGNUM OPUS SPEECH ON SALVATION - and what do we get? Just a bunch of confusion?

JAL · Feb 20, 2019

ExTiff said:
THUS: God has been 'seen' by no one. John 1:18; 1 John 4:12. Wind being generally not itself seen is a metaphor for God, who has been 'seen' by no one.
The Holy Spirit is unseen, as are all things associated with the eternal Spirit of God. 2 Cor.4:18. In this case 'look for' is a metaphor. We could not physically 'look for' something metaphysical, which cannot be seen.
.

You're sadly mistaken. John saw the Holy Breath descend upon Jesus in the physical form of a dove. Moses spoke with God face to face. The 70 elders walked up Sinai to see God, and His feet rested on pavement. I could go on.

This means the verses referring to God not being seen are of limited force. i.e, God hasn't been seen in the absolute fullness of His glory (He hand-shaded His own facial brilliance from Moses in the Ex passage). "I will cover you with my hand as I pass by, so my face will not be seen."

You CAN see His face, but currently you can't withstand it at fullest radiance. That would kill you.

Shading of brilliance is a physical act. Therefore God is physical.

When Moses came down the mountain, his face was radiant. He used a PHYSICAL VEIL to shade it. That means the Light was physical. An immateiral Light would pass through a physical veil, unshaded, unrestrained.

I could go on. ALL the biblical data points to a physical God. Not just SOME of it. ALL OF IT.

ExTiff · Feb 20, 2019

JAL said:
You see what you just did, right? I gave you a verse, and your response is to write it off as a metaphor. That's your prerogative. But the point is, that the actual VERSES favor my position. God formed the earth from waters. You can write it all off as metaphor. Again, That's your prerogative. But if you do that, you can no longer pretend to have proven your position from Scripture. In effect, you're just dismissing what it says.

The Bible doesn't clearly state creatoin ex nihilo. It isn't clear on where the raw material came from. Noted Bible scholars already admit as much. You're just forcing your opinion on the text, on me, and on everyone else. That's called eisegesis.

You see what you just did, right? I gave you a reply, and your response was to write it off as a nonsemse. That's your prerogative.

I intend to avoid arguments of this kind.
.

JAL · Feb 20, 2019

ExTiff said:
You see what you just did, right? I gave you a reply, and your response was to write it off as a nonsemse. That's your prerogative.

I intend to avoid arguments of this kind.
.

I base my arguments on Scripture. If your rubric for Scripture-based arguments is, 'writing it off as nonsense', that's your prerogative.

ExTiff · Feb 20, 2019

JAL said:
I base my arguments on Scripture. If your rubric for Scripture-based arguments is, 'writing it off as nonsense', that's your prerogative.

So did this guy. Matt.4:5-6. But I don't take much stock by his exegesis.
.

JAL · Feb 20, 2019

ExTiff said:
So did this guy. Matt.4:5-6. But I don't take much stock by his exegesis.
.

Cheap debating tactic. So if I had NOT used Scripture, you would have rebuked me for a lack of Scripture, but when I do use it, that makes me the devil? Fine. I'll remain one heck of a devil then. Meanwhile, enjoy the Greek philosophy that birthed YOUR views.

JAL · Feb 20, 2019

ExTiff said:
God made an entire universe by just 'speaking' it into existence.

Ok, so, is the role of the divine Voice, as pictured in Genesis, to speak something into existence? Plenty of evidence belies that.

IN verse 2 we see the raw material, waters, already existing. THEN God begins to speak. The role of the voice, thereafter, isn't to CREATE OUT OF NOTHING (at least there's no decisive evidence of that) but is rather to FORM AND SHAPE the raw material into the contours now identifiable as earth.

How exactly does this work? Isa 55:11 has the answer. It talks about the Voice. 'My Word that goes out from my mouth shall not return void, but shall achieve that for which I sent it." When we speak, we issue wind/breath from the mouth.

A Psalm put it like this, 'By the Word of the Lord were the heavens formed, the starry host by the Breath of His mouth."

Ok so according to the psalmist, HOW was the universe formed? Ex nihilo? No it was physically CONTOURED (formed and shaped) by the Holy Wind/Breath departing from God's mouth.

The evidence flatly contradicts YOUR statement:

ExTiff said:
God made an entire universe by just 'speaking' it into existence.

I'm sorry you'd rather have me believe Greek philosophy instead of Scripture.

JAL · Feb 20, 2019

ExTiff said:
Not at all. It is a metaphor. God is still doing it. You and I are but dust, and to dust we shall return. God did not grovel on the gound making mud pies with his hands when he made you or I. No! What makes you think God would have to have resorted to such physical activity with Adam? God made an entire universe by just 'speaking' it into existence. If God could do that, then I have no problem seeing the 'making of Adam' in a purely metaphorical sense. i.e. God brought the human race into physical existence, (without assuming God made Adam out of literal mud pies). Genesis Ch.1-5 is a story of beginnings, not a pottery making manual.

All this is so 'off thread' that a rabbit could run on it, -- or a lemming.
.

Scripture calls God the potter who molds the clay. I'm sorry you find His ways beneath you.

Where did Eve come from? Wasn't she molded from Adam's ribs and therefore from clay? Oh that's right, I forgot, the whole Bible is just metaphor to you, and its language is beneath you. You don't stoop to that level.

Do you believe in physical healing? I think you do. So it's okay for God to mold and shape the clay when it SUITS you, but when it doesn't fit your theology, you suddenly deny it?

JAL · Feb 20, 2019

ExTiff said:
Not at all. It is a metaphor. God is still doing it. You and I are but dust, and to dust we shall return. God did not grovel on the gound making mud pies with his hands when he made you or I.

Seems that God has a little more humility than you do. He is not above stooping to the level of groveling on the ground to form mud pies:

After saying this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. 7“Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means “Sent”). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing (John 9:6).

BABerean2 · Feb 20, 2019

JAL said:
What argument are you making here? I didn't follow.

You seemed to say we do not know whether John 3 is speaking of the "Spirit" of God, or "wind".
The other scriptures I presented in Post #153 show it not to be about "wind".

.

JAL · Feb 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
You seemed to say we do not know whether John 3 is speaking of the "Spirit" of God, or "wind".
The other scriptures I presented in Post #153 show it not to be about "wind".

.

What I am saying is that we cannot come to the text with preconceived conclusions. We can't just presume it to be 'Spirit' just because a bunch of Greek philosophers said so. We have to examine the actual context. Having done so, I can say decisively that the evidence in the text points us to the title The Holy Wind/Breath, as opposed to The Holy Spirit/Ghost. And from there, for the sake of consistency (unless God really was bent on confusing us), we can safely say that Pneuma consistently means breath/wind throughout Scripture.

BABerean2 · Feb 20, 2019

JAL said:
What I am saying is that we cannot come to the text with preconceived conclusions. We can't just presume it to be 'Spirit' just because a bunch of Greek philosophers said so. We have to examine the actual context. Having done so, I can say decisively that the evidence in the text points us to the title The Holy Wind/Breath, as opposed to The Holy Spirit/Ghost. And from there, for the sake of consistency (unless God really was bent on confusing us), we can safely say that Pneuma consistently means breath/wind throughout Scripture.

Anyone who has to re-write scripture to make their doctrine work has gone off the road and into the ditch.

.
John 14:26

(CJB) But the Counselor, the Ruach HaKodesh, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything; that is, he will remind you of everything I have said to you.

(ESV) But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

(Geneva) But the Comforter, which is the holy Ghost, whom the Father wil send in my Name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, which I haue tolde you.

(Greek NT TR) ο δε παρακλητος το πνευμα το αγιον ο πεμψει ο πατηρ εν τω ονοματι μου εκεινος υμας διδαξει παντα και υπομνησει υμας παντα α ειπον υμιν

(GW) However, the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything. He will remind you of everything that I have ever told you.

(LITV-TSP) but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and shall remind you of all things that I said to you.

(KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

(KJV+) ButG1161 theG3588 Comforter,G3875 which is theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost,G4151 whomG3739 theG3588 FatherG3962 will sendG3992 inG1722 myG3450 name,G3686 heG1565 shall teachG1321 youG5209 all things,G3956 andG2532 bring all things to your remembrance,G5279 G3956 G5209 whatsoeverG3739 I have saidG2036 unto you.G5213

(NKJV) But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

(YLT) and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.

.

JAL · Feb 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Anyone who has to re-write scripture to make their doctrine work has gone off the road and into the ditch.

.
John 14:26

(CJB) But the Counselor, the Ruach HaKodesh, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything; that is, he will remind you of everything I have said to you.

(ESV) But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

(Geneva) But the Comforter, which is the holy Ghost, whom the Father wil send in my Name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, which I haue tolde you.

(Greek NT TR) ο δε παρακλητος το πνευμα το αγιον ο πεμψει ο πατηρ εν τω ονοματι μου εκεινος υμας διδαξει παντα και υπομνησει υμας παντα α ειπον υμιν

(GW) However, the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything. He will remind you of everything that I have ever told you.

(LITV-TSP) but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and shall remind you of all things that I said to you.

(KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

(KJV+) ButG1161 theG3588 Comforter,G3875 which is theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost,G4151 whomG3739 theG3588 FatherG3962 will sendG3992 inG1722 myG3450 name,G3686 heG1565 shall teachG1321 youG5209 all things,G3956 andG2532 bring all things to your remembrance,G5279 G3956 G5209 whatsoeverG3739 I have saidG2036 unto you.G5213

(NKJV) But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

(YLT) and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.

.

Anyone who accepts the opinions of men over the scriptural data and immediate context isn't acting wisely. MEN are telling you to read it as 'Spirit'. What does the CONTEXT indicate?

JAL · Feb 20, 2019

You keep citing verses regarding the Third Person. Don't you realize that I'm a Trinitarian? These verses do not contradict my views.

JAL · Feb 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Anyone who has to re-write scripture to make their doctrine work has gone off the road and into the ditch.

.
John 14:26

(CJB) But the Counselor, the Ruach HaKodesh, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything; that is, he will remind you of everything I have said to you.

(ESV) But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

(Geneva) But the Comforter, which is the holy Ghost, whom the Father wil send in my Name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, which I haue tolde you.

(Greek NT TR) ο δε παρακλητος το πνευμα το αγιον ο πεμψει ο πατηρ εν τω ονοματι μου εκεινος υμας διδαξει παντα και υπομνησει υμας παντα α ειπον υμιν

(GW) However, the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything. He will remind you of everything that I have ever told you.

(LITV-TSP) but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and shall remind you of all things that I said to you.

(KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

(KJV+) ButG1161 theG3588 Comforter,G3875 which is theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost,G4151 whomG3739 theG3588 FatherG3962 will sendG3992 inG1722 myG3450 name,G3686 heG1565 shall teachG1321 youG5209 all things,G3956 andG2532 bring all things to your remembrance,G5279 G3956 G5209 whatsoeverG3739 I have saidG2036 unto you.G5213

(NKJV) But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

(YLT) and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.

.

You might want to add this verse to your favorites on the Third Person:

"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the Breath (Pneuma) of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming" (2Th 2:8, NIV).

That's from the New International Version.

BABerean2 · Feb 20, 2019

JAL said:
You might want to add this verse to your favorites on the Third Person:

"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the Breath (Pneuma) of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming" (2Th 2:8, NIV).

That's from the New International Version.

Everything that is good, is not new(Textus Receptus)...

Everything that is new (Westcott and Hort), is not good.

Early Church Father Cyprian quoted from the Textus Receptus, about 250 AD.

.

One Son · Feb 21, 2019

JAL said:
What I am saying is that we cannot come to the text with preconceived conclusions. We can't just presume it to be 'Spirit' just because a bunch of Greek philosophers said so. We have to examine the actual context. Having done so, I can say decisively that the evidence in the text points us to the title The Holy Wind/Breath, as opposed to The Holy Spirit/Ghost. And from there, for the sake of consistency (unless God really was bent on confusing us), we can safely say that Pneuma consistently means breath/wind throughout Scripture.

Gen.7:21(ASV) And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both birds, and cattle, and beasts, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died.

breath of the spirit of life

Genesis 7:22 ►
Text Analysis
Str Translit Hebrew English Morph
3605 [e] kōl כֹּ֡ל all Noun
834 [e] ’ă-šer אֲשֶׁר֩ that [had] Prt
5397 [e] niš-maṯ נִשְׁמַת־ the breath Noun
7307 [e] rū-aḥ ר֨וּחַ of the spirit Noun
2416 [e] ḥay-yîm חַיִּ֜ים of life Adj
639 [e] bə-’ap-pāw, בְּאַפָּ֗יו in the nostrils Noun
3605 [e] mik-kōl מִכֹּ֛ל of all Noun
834 [e] ’ă-šer אֲשֶׁ֥ר that [was] Prt
2724 [e]be-ḥā-rā-ḇāh בֶּחָֽרָבָ֖ה in the dry [land] Noun
4191 [e] mê-ṯū. מֵֽתוּ׃ died Verb

Is.59:20(ASV) And a Redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith Jehovah.

21 And as for me, this is my covenant with them, saith Jehovah: my Spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed*, saith Jehovah, from henceforth and for ever.

Gal.3:16(NAS) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

breath of the spirit of life
(Word) . . . (Spirit) . . (Christ)

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts unto God.(Col.3:16)

JLHargus · Feb 26, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Let's first define what regeneration is. Could you explain how you understand the doctrine?

JL: We are regenerated when we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, born again by water and of the Spirit, Jn3:3-6.

[Titus3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he ]b]shed on us abundantly through Jesus[/b] Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.]

[Acts22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.]

[2Cor5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.]

[Gal3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.]

BABerean2 · Feb 26, 2019

JLHargus said:
JL: We are regenerated when we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, born again by water and of the Spirit, Jn3:3-6.

[Titus3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he ]b]shed on us abundantly through Jesus[/b] Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.]

[Acts22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.]

[2Cor5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.]

[Gal3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.]

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

.

Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

Veteran

Veteran

Veteran

Well-Known Member

Veteran

Well-Known Member

Veteran

Veteran

Veteran

Veteran

Newbie

Veteran

Newbie

Veteran

Veteran

Veteran

Newbie

Active Member

Active Member

Newbie

Similar threads