Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

Uber Genius · Feb 20, 2019

T. Taylor said:
In my view the Bible is the source of all truth.

I think it is hard to make this leap. We have no textual support that the speech gives to the disciples in John where he tells them that the HS will lead you into ALL Truth has anything to do with historical, scientific, mathematical truth, etc.

It seems the context is the truth regarding the message of the gospel of the kingdom.

Further Paul's ruminations seem in line with John's having to do with "Instruction in righteousness."

But for argument's sake what are we to make of the unclear narrative in Gen 1-2:3? This scientific account of creation if we are to argue your view, has no less than 7 Bible-believing conservative protestant Christian scholarly views!

Now how is it that case that God is so vague about cosmological accounts as to produce such confusion amongst true Christians?

Further differing accounts in simple historical facts such as 4 different versions of the title hung on the cross describing Jesus and his offense seems absurd if God is this "infallible,divine source of all truth." Are we to believe he can't make the science clear, or statements like, "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS," consistent between 4 witness, shoot even two?

Since no Christian argues that we get the scriptures via dictation, (mormons and Muslims argue this) why not accept that like all of history, God allows men to freely represent the things God reveals in ways he knew before the foundation of the world would be sufficient to give a witness about him?

Hundreds of difficult conflicts disappear when we affirm a human and divine cooperation in writing the scriptures, something that has been affirmed since the beginning of Christianity. This would also save Evangelicals from having to rewrite commentaries everytime a new scientific discovery is made in order to explain how God actually didn't do it the way they had read into the text and that we should read some new discovery into an ancient author's words. For me see anything by Hugh Ross.

Hank77 · Feb 20, 2019

Uber Genius said:
I think it is hard to make this leap. We have no textual support that the speech gives to the disciples in John where he tells them that the HS will lead you into ALL Truth has anything to do with historical, scientific, mathematical truth, etc.

It seems the context is the truth regarding the message of the gospel of the kingdom.

Speedwell · Feb 20, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
By who's authority do you speak?

The authority of scripture, tradition and reason; That is the authority which my faith rests on. There is no other.

juvenissun · Feb 20, 2019

T. Taylor said:
View attachment 251702
This was the hebrew concept of the world.

Only one problem, which even a fool can see:
How does the sun go back to the east during the night? (described in one of the Psalms)
So, there must be more to this concept.

FEZZILLA · Feb 20, 2019

Speedwell said:
The authority of scripture, tradition and reason; That is the authority which my faith rests on. There is no other.

So where in Scripture, Tradition and Reason does it say flat earth? Did you not read my opening post? I used Scripture, Tradition and Reason like any Anglican would.

FEZZILLA · Feb 20, 2019

Hank77 said:
Jeremiah 51:15 - Where do you see the word 'round' in the Latin?

The Latin says orbis which William Tyndale translated

T. Taylor said:
The heavens are compared to a tent. How do you spread out a tent on a ball?

The atmosphere of the is like a tent that stretches around like an inflatable ball.

SeventyOne · Feb 20, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
The Latin says orbis which William Tyndale translated

The atmosphere of the is like a tent that stretches around like an inflatable ball.

You're saying that Isaiah and people contemporary of himself would have imagined a tent as as something stretching over an inflatable ball?

lasthero · Feb 20, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
The Latin says orbis which William Tyndale translated

The atmosphere of the is like a tent that stretches around like an inflatable ball.

They must have oddly shaped tents, wherever you come from.

FEZZILLA · Feb 20, 2019

Hank77 said:
Jeremiah 51:15 - Where do you see the word 'round' in the Latin?

The Latin Vulgate says orbis which William Tyndale translated round. Both words are translated from the Hebrew word H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl.

The Latin definition of orbis:

round noun
globus, orbis, circulus, circlus, circes
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...1mBEJstYXx0gzF6EipmciMwlSPiHcWHW_yuSat8vwhsJc

Some verses that contain the Hebrew H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl are followed by H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets. When têbêl & ʼerets are used together in a verse it translates to orbis terrarum in Latin. The Latin definition of orbis terrarum is world globe.
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...yYTw7F0jgxRM9KLdpajKWYYrIX1U1NVyFobwNS0ll1LdI

Of course, in the case of Isaiah 40:22, the words H2329 חוּג chûwg & H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets are used together which are translated into Latin as gyrum terrae (aka, gyrus terrarum). The Latin definition of gyrus terrarum is "globe of the earth."
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/d...Be9gI2lzWOXLp501bQ0r0E4qksF2Hff9v3v5WK3tPDRxk

FEZZILLA · Feb 20, 2019

SeventyOne said:
You're saying that Isaiah and people contemporary of himself would have imagined a tent as as something stretching over an inflatable ball?

Isaiah was a Prophet who did not think and speak on his own authority, but wrote down in Scripture everything the Spirit of God told him.

FEZZILLA · Feb 20, 2019

SeventyOne said:
You're saying that Isaiah and people contemporary of himself would have imagined a tent as as something stretching over an inflatable ball?

Isaiah was sawed in half.

This has nothing to do with human thinking. Isaiah was a Prophet of God and the Book of Isaiah is the word of God...not ancient man's opinions.

SeventyOne · Feb 20, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Isaiah was sawed in half.

This has nothing to do with human thinking. Isaiah was a Prophet of God and the Book of Isaiah is the word of God...not ancient man's opinions.

It has nothing to do with human thinking? Was it not written to humans for them to read and understand? What if I just said everything you state as your proof is something completely different that what it says, because it's not for human thinking after all>

Can you show any tent over an inflated ball?

Speedwell · Feb 20, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
So where in Scripture, Tradition and Reason does it say flat earth? Did you not read my opening post? I used Scripture, Tradition and Reason like any Anglican would.

Isaiah didn't say the Earth is flat. He didn't really say it was a sphere, either. The precise shape of the Earth was not material to his discourse and the verse does not "teach" us anything about it.

Use your reason: Just because I don't believe that Isaiah 40:22 teaches a spherical Earth doesn't mean that I must believe it teaches a flat Earth. I believe that it teaches neither one, even though you will not admit that as a possibility.

Hank77 · Feb 20, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
The Latin says orbis which William Tyndale translated

Orbim is translated world, which Tyndale did translate worlde. If as you say orbim is translated 'round' then which Latin word is 'worlde'.
I could have missed a word maybe.

T. Taylor · Feb 21, 2019

Uber Genius said:
I think it is hard to make this leap. We have no textual support that the speech gives to the disciples in John where he tells them that the HS will lead you into ALL Truth has anything to do with historical, scientific, mathematical truth, etc.

It seems the context is the truth regarding the message of the gospel of the kingdom.

Further Paul's ruminations seem in line with John's having to do with "Instruction in righteousness."

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (Jn. 16:12-13 KJV)

This Spirit of truth is the same Spirit that spoke through the prophets in the inspired scriptures.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Pet. 1:21 KJV)

God's main message through holy men is off course the gospel of the kingdom. However that doesn't mean that in other topics, such as historical, scientific, mathematical matters it cannot be truthful.

Uber Genius said:
But for argument's sake what are we to make of the unclear narrative in Gen 1-2:3? This scientific account of creation if we are to argue your view, has no less than 7 Bible-believing conservative protestant Christian scholarly views!

Now how is it that case that God is so vague about cosmological accounts as to produce such confusion amongst true Christians?

God is not vague about cosmological accounts and the genesis narrative is not unclear. God pesented it understendably, articulately in His Word. It is plain and simple. The fallen soul and mind of men is the one that does not comprehend it and misinterprets its message because of doubt and distrust. That's why we have so many confused "true" christians.

Uber Genius said:
Further differing accounts in simple historical facts such as 4 different versions of the title hung on the cross describing Jesus and his offense seems absurd if God is this "infallible,divine source of all truth." Are we to believe he can't make the science clear, or statements like, "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS," consistent between 4 witness, shoot even two?

If you read an account today that is ambiguous and there are many versions you don't have to conclude that it was the case when the account was written down.

Uber Genius said:
Since no Christian argues that we get the scriptures via dictation, (mormons and Muslims argue this) why not accept that like all of history, God allows men to freely represent the things God reveals in ways he knew before the foundation of the world would be sufficient to give a witness about him?

If the general message is true, the details can be true also.

Uber Genius said:
Hundreds of difficult conflicts disappear when we affirm a human and divine cooperation in writing the scriptures, something that has been affirmed since the beginning of Christianity. This would also save Evangelicals from having to rewrite commentaries everytime a new scientific discovery is made in order to explain how God actually didn't do it the way they had read into the text and that we should read some new discovery into an ancient author's words. For me see anything by Hugh Ross.

Evangelicals reading into the text. That is the problem.

Essentially it's all about trusting and having faith in whatever God says. Everybody has different amount of faith and that is one of the reasons why we have so many interpretations.

7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. (Prov. 8:7-9 KJV)

Speedwell · Feb 21, 2019

T. Taylor said:
God's main message through holy men is off course the gospel of the kingdom. However that doesn't mean that in other topics, such as historical, scientific, mathematical matters it cannot be truthful.

It doesn't mean they must be, either. It also doesn't justify hostility and even violence directed towards other Christians who don't think they must be.

A Realist · Feb 21, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
There have been few flat earth Christians.

You wouldn't know that from browsing this and other forums.

Jimmy D · Feb 21, 2019

So basically we're saying that the Bible says we want it to say.... and anyone who disagrees is interpreting it wrong?

Uber Genius · Feb 21, 2019

T. Taylor said:
God's main message through holy men is off course the gospel of the kingdom. However that doesn't mean that in other topics, such as historical, scientific, mathematical matters it cannot be truthful.

This is what is known as an argument from ignorance. I agree that the message is primarily concerned with the gospel of the kingdom, and further miracle accounts should be taken at face value, but where do you see anything suggesting that God supernaturally links "all truth," to scientific, math, historical truth?

T. Taylor said:
God is not vague about cosmological accounts and the genesis narrative is not unclear.

Again, you need to explain why conservative Bible believing scholars that hold a view similar to yours about the inspiration of the Bible come up with 7 different interpretations.
Those scholars say:
"It means A,"
"No B,"
"No clearly C,
"No it is not vague or unclear, it means D"
"You are all wrong it is E,"
"The HS has shown me that you are all carnal and wrong, it means F,"
"It is obviously the case that G is the only proper way to interpret Gen 1:1-2:3,"

And your response: "There is nothing unclear or vague, therefore all the above scholars that hold similar views to mine about God leading us into all truth are all correct."

Wait what?
Law of noncontradiction has just been violated.

Since clarity would produce ONE AND ONLY ONE THEORY from Bible Scholars who held your view. You have to provide some reason why there are 7.

T. Taylor said:
If you read an account today that is ambiguous and there are many versions you don't have to conclude that it was the case when the account was written down.

So God goes to the trouble of making sure the authors wrote the original autographs error-free in order to insure the Bible leading us into all truth, and then God approved error destroying the truth-value of those same accounts?

Wait What?

T. Taylor said:
If the general message is true, the details can be true also.

This is a non-sequitur. Did God allow human free will in recording their accounts in the Bible? If no, then are you a mormon or a Muslim? If yes then describe how God gave them perfect knowledge outside of their culture of things like cosmology, and I'm not talking about current cosmology, since that is wrong. I'm talking about Grand Unified theory and explanations of dark matter and dark energy only discovered in the last 25 years. And further who in audience that read the Bible the past 3000 years would have even understood or been able to be led into the truth of the inflationary hot big bang cosmology given they came from a prescientific world?

T. Taylor said:
Evangelicals reading into the text. That is the problem.

Every denomination reads into the text. And every denomination has some scholars who exegete or draw out of the text its meaning to the original audience. So there is no interpretation gap that is universal.

T. Taylor said:
Essentially it's all about trusting and having faith in whatever God says. Everybody has different amount of faith and that is one of the reasons why we have so many interpretations.

So my faith tells me Christ was fully man but not fully God, actually he was "begotten" or was the first-born. The spirit tells me Jesus was the "first of creation," and that means he was created but was the most important creation." (Mods - I'm being facetious here to make a point, I don't actual hold this view so please don't modify it due to not reading it in context or misrepresent me as a heretic).

My point is that across church history we have thousands or hundreds of thousands of false claims based on the statement, "I have faith that this is what the HS is telling me."

Paul had faith that his words were from the Lord. But said if he came back preaching another gospel (that he had faith that the new gospel was from the Lord) they should:
A: Abandon the old gospel and adopt the new one
B: Abandon Paul's new gospel even if accompanied by angels

So here too the method you present is not the method we see presented in scripture, i.e. that is it is self-refuting.

I'm sympathetic to your view however, being raised in the Charismatic church, I was taught and hardily agreed with every one of your claims albeit 40 years ago.

Lost4words · Feb 21, 2019

People will look at scripture and twist it into what they believe it is saying.

Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

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