Is Origin of Language proof for a Creator/God?

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,446
803
71
Chicago
✟121,700.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Oriental languages fit into a number of different families including Indo-European, Sino-Tibetan (these are the largest 2 families), Indo-Aryan, Japonic, Austronesian, Kadai, Mon-Khmer, Dravidian, Turkic, Semitic and a number of other, smaller families. Western languages in general fit into a different set of families, although Indo-European and Turkic would be 2 obvious common families.

In terms of writing, Hanzi (Chinese) is the only purely logographic system. Japanese uses a mix of logographic and syllabic writing, while the others use either syllabic, abugida or alphabetic systems.

ETA All "western" (meaning European, rather than western hemisphere) languages use alphabetic orthography.

You did not answer my question.

For example, the language of Iran, why is their alphabets looks so different from Latin alphabets? Is ancient Egyptian language graphical or alphabetical?
And, if the language of whole world use some kind of alphabet, why is Chinese language different?
 
Upvote 0

Bungle_Bear

Whoot!
Mar 6, 2011
9,084
3,513
✟254,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
You did not answer my question.

For example, the language of Iran, why is their alphabets looks so different from Latin alphabets? Is ancient Egyptian language graphical or alphabetical?
And, if the language of whole world use some kind of alphabet, why is Chinese language different?
I asked you to clarify your question and you failed to do so. Stop trying to blame your inadequate language skills on others.

In response to your 3 questions:
1. Which language of Iran? Persian is the official language written in Persian alphabet, but Kurdish, for instance, is written using Persian, Latin, Armenian or Cyrillic depending where the speaker is. Why do they use Persian? A consequence of Arabic invasion. It's based on the Arabic alphabet, with in turn can be traced back to Phoenician via Nabatean, Syriac and Aramaic. Latin can also be traced to Phoenician via Greek. Why do they differ? Different phonemes requiring variations on previous symbols, so local variants were used. Humans are an imaginative bunch so they created variant symbols to represent their phonemes as required.
2. Ancient Egyptian was written using Hieroglyphs which included logograms, syllabary and alphabet. Later scripts dropped the logograms.
3. Not every language has a written form. But to address the Chinese question: There are potentially myriad reasons why Chinese uses logograms. Consider:
a) Chinese suits a logographic system as the same character/word is pronounced differently in different locations. So a character can convey the same meaning even if pronounced differently. Thus it is possible to communicate in writing where speech fails.
b) Once you start down a path of logograms it would take a reform to change to use an alphabet instead. Although this has been suggested several times in China, it has never happened.
c) Calligraphy is highly regarded in China. An alphabet does not lend itself so well to such artistic expression.

Ultimately your question boils down to "why don't we all use the same writing system?" Different languages use different phonemes and have different requirements for representation. Humans are, as mentioned above, also imaginative so they will find different solutions to common problems.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,446
803
71
Chicago
✟121,700.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I asked you to clarify your question and you failed to do so. Stop trying to blame your inadequate language skills on others.

In response to your 3 questions:
1. Which language of Iran? Persian is the official language written in Persian alphabet, but Kurdish, for instance, is written using Persian, Latin, Armenian or Cyrillic depending where the speaker is. Why do they use Persian? A consequence of Arabic invasion. It's based on the Arabic alphabet, with in turn can be traced back to Phoenician via Nabatean, Syriac and Aramaic. Latin can also be traced to Phoenician via Greek. Why do they differ? Different phonemes requiring variations on previous symbols, so local variants were used. Humans are an imaginative bunch so they created variant symbols to represent their phonemes as required.
2. Ancient Egyptian was written using Hieroglyphs which included logograms, syllabary and alphabet. Later scripts dropped the logograms.
3. Not every language has a written form. But to address the Chinese question: There are potentially myriad reasons why Chinese uses logograms. Consider:
a) Chinese suits a logographic system as the same character/word is pronounced differently in different locations. So a character can convey the same meaning even if pronounced differently. Thus it is possible to communicate in writing where speech fails.
b) Once you start down a path of logograms it would take a reform to change to use an alphabet instead. Although this has been suggested several times in China, it has never happened.
c) Calligraphy is highly regarded in China. An alphabet does not lend itself so well to such artistic expression.

Ultimately your question boils down to "why don't we all use the same writing system?" Different languages use different phonemes and have different requirements for representation. Humans are, as mentioned above, also imaginative so they will find different solutions to common problems.

Great. Thanks. Now you talk like a linguist. I can not catch up. I can not even ask a good question now.

But I still think we can not link the origin of these languages together. They "appeared" and developed separately.

Where does this thing come from? Do they really "pronounce
" these logographic alphabetical words?
EgyptianHieroglyphs1.jpg

hieratic_lp.jpg
 
Upvote 0

Bungle_Bear

Whoot!
Mar 6, 2011
9,084
3,513
✟254,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Great. Thanks. Now you talk like a linguist. I can not catch up. I can not even ask a good question now.

But I still think we can not link the origin of these languages together. They "appeared" and developed separately.

Where does this thing come from? Do they really "pronounce
" these logographic alphabetical words?
EgyptianHieroglyphs1.jpg

hieratic_lp.jpg
Origins of language and origins of writing are not linked. I already told you that not every language has a written form. And orthography of languages is not fixed (Kurdish being written using different alphabets is a good example). And I'm really not clear what your question about pronouncing "logographic alphabetical words" means. What don't you understand?
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,446
803
71
Chicago
✟121,700.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Origins of language and origins of writing are not linked. I already told you that not every language has a written form. And orthography of languages is not fixed (Kurdish being written using different alphabets is a good example). And I'm really not clear what your question about pronouncing "logographic alphabetical words" means. What don't you understand?
36274440-vector-illustration-for-ancient-egypt-hieroglyphs-alphabet-set.jpg


If I write "FATHER" by the logograph, how do I pronounce the word? Is that how the language works?
How does Egyptian writing show "FATHER"? (see this link) It looks very much like a graphic language to me.

Where does this language come from?
 
Upvote 0

Steve Petersen

Senior Veteran
May 11, 2005
16,077
3,390
✟162,912.00
Faith
Deist
Politics
US-Libertarian
Pictographic
36274440-vector-illustration-for-ancient-egypt-hieroglyphs-alphabet-set.jpg


If I write "FATHER" by the logograph, how do I pronounce the word? Is that how the language works?
How does Egyptian writing show "FATHER"? (see this link) It looks very much like a graphic language to me.

Where does this language come from?

'The major difference between pictographic and phonetic scripts is that while in the former the individual symbols represent ideas and objects, in the latter the symbols stand for sounds.'

http://www.sfu.ca/~ramccall/Pictographsversusletters.pdf
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,446
803
71
Chicago
✟121,700.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Aman777

Christian
Jan 26, 2013
10,351
584
✟30,043.00
Faith
Baptist
That's pretty funny considering the KJV translators are all dead.

The KJV translators did NOT have the "increased knowledge" necessary to understand the recent scientific discoveries of today's science. Daniel 12:4 Only those living in the present last days can possibly understand God's hidden Truth in Genesis. It's proof of the literal God since NO man, except those living in the last days, could have possibly written Genesis more than 3k years ago. Amen?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Aman777

Christian
Jan 26, 2013
10,351
584
✟30,043.00
Faith
Baptist
I see no necessity for that distinction.

Here's one. Lord God/Jesus made mosquitoes and all other creeping things and man. Like all of His creations, mosquitoes like men, are subject to death. The only way to enter the eternal Heaven is to be born Spiritually by agreement of the Trinity. Genesis 1:26 Genesis 5:1-2 and John 14:16 even though Humans were first created by the Hands of Jesus. Genesis 2:7 Does this help you understand these words?

Jhn 3:5 ¶ Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The mosquito is NOT born again Spiritually by the Trinity, thus cannot enter Heaven. Only Humans (descendants of Adam) have the superior intelligence of God, which makes it possibly for them to be born Spiritually and Eternally. Genesis 3:22
 
Upvote 0

Bungle_Bear

Whoot!
Mar 6, 2011
9,084
3,513
✟254,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Atheists, agnostics and phonies.
So now you want to claim that the bible was written by "Atheists, agnostics and phonies"? That's an interesting claim for a Christian to be making.

Leviticus 11:19 "And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat."

I know you will never admit you're wrong, just wondering if you'll go quiet now or continue with the dishonesty. Last time it was outright lies - have you got anything new?
 
Upvote 0

Bungle_Bear

Whoot!
Mar 6, 2011
9,084
3,513
✟254,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
36274440-vector-illustration-for-ancient-egypt-hieroglyphs-alphabet-set.jpg


If I write "FATHER" by the logograph, how do I pronounce the word? Is that how the language works?
How does Egyptian writing show "FATHER"? (see this link) It looks very much like a graphic language to me.

Where does this language come from?
Have you ever used a rebus? Consider the picture of an eye (I can't seem to post one here). It can represent an idea (your eye). But it can also represent the sound "I". Why do you think hieroglyphs should be any different?

What does this image represent?

images
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,446
803
71
Chicago
✟121,700.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Have you ever used a rebus? Consider the picture of an eye (I can't seem to post one here). It can represent an idea (your eye). But it can also represent the sound "I". Why do you think hieroglyphs should be any different?

What does this image represent?

images

Excellent. Thanks.
[need digestion, no more question now.]
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

46AND2

Forty six and two are just ahead of me...
Sep 5, 2012
5,807
2,210
Vancouver, WA
✟102,103.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The KJV translators did NOT have the "increased knowledge" necessary to understand the recent scientific discoveries of today's science. Daniel 12:4 Only those living in the present last days can possibly understand God's hidden Truth in Genesis. It's proof of the literal God since NO man, except those living in the last days, could have possibly written Genesis more than 3k years ago. Amen?

Um. ok. But you are arguing for a translation of Genesis written a LONG time ago ( the KJV, which says "his" instead of "its."), when the translators in the CURRENT age, disagree with your interpretation, and agree with mine...so...I'm not sure what your point is. More than likely, you are just trying to obfuscate the fact that the possessive pronouns CLEARLY refer back to the animals, and not god.

Besides which, if the scholars who translated the KJV were so ignorant of the truths of the last days....WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU USE THAT TRANSLATION?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bungle_Bear

Whoot!
Mar 6, 2011
9,084
3,513
✟254,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Um. ok. But you are arguing for a translation of Genesis written a LONG time ago ( the KJV, which says "his" instead of "its."), when the translators in the CURRENT age, disagree with your interpretation, and agree with mine...so...I'm not sure what your point is. More than likely, you are just trying to obfuscate the fact that the possessive pronouns CLEARLY refer back to the animals, and not god.

Besides which, if the scholars who translated the KJV were so ignorant of the truths of the last days....WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU USE THAT TRANSLATION?
I believe he uses it because he thinks it is the most popular version of the Bible, even though in USA the most commonly puchased version of the bible is NIV. It's a simple appeal ad populum logical fallacy
 
Upvote 0

Steve Petersen

Senior Veteran
May 11, 2005
16,077
3,390
✟162,912.00
Faith
Deist
Politics
US-Libertarian
I believe he uses it because he thinks it is the most popular version of the Bible, even though in USA the most commonly puchased version of the bible is NIV. It's a simple appeal ad populum logical fallacy

Heard this when I was a kid. The Old KJV only propaganda.
 
Upvote 0

Aman777

Christian
Jan 26, 2013
10,351
584
✟30,043.00
Faith
Baptist
Leviticus 11:19 "And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat."

I know you will never admit you're wrong, just wondering if you'll go quiet now or continue with the dishonesty. Last time it was outright lies - have you got anything new?

Sorry, but that is an obvious mistranslation since the Hebrew word for "her" is the SAME word for "his" in the verses just before the verse you listed. ALSO, The Hebrew word which is used for both is the word "miyn" which is in Strong's.

Transliteration
miyn Pronunciation
mēn (Key)

Part of Speech
masculine noun

Unless you use the KJV you will misunderstand.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Aman777

Christian
Jan 26, 2013
10,351
584
✟30,043.00
Faith
Baptist
Um. ok. But you are arguing for a translation of Genesis written a LONG time ago ( the KJV, which says "his" instead of "its."), when the translators in the CURRENT age, disagree with your interpretation, and agree with mine...so...I'm not sure what your point is. More than likely, you are just trying to obfuscate the fact that the possessive pronouns CLEARLY refer back to the animals, and not god.

Besides which, if the scholars who translated the KJV were so ignorant of the truths of the last days....WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU USE THAT TRANSLATION?

I use the KJV since it is the most read, which to me means that God has put it in front of more Humans than any other version. It is also old and that means that it is less altered than the newer versions. I have also discovered something which is very rare and precious and that is the agreement of Scripture, Science, History, Genetics and every other discovered Truth, in Genesis.

God told Daniel HOW to hide His Truth until the last days, Daniel 12:4 when the increased knowledge of the time would give mankind empirical testable evidence. Only God could have told us of recent discoveries of Science in Genesis more than 3k years ago. It's proof of the literal God. Today is the last Day. Amen?
 
Upvote 0