Bring Back the Wise Men

DamianWarS · Feb 19, 2019

crossnote said:
?? I don't understand. Aren't the Scriptures inspired by God? Of course, the account happened or are we now judges of God's Word deciding what happened and didn't happen?

Eastern philosophy truth is different than Western philosophy truth. Western thinking demands facts to build the truth where Eastern thinking can use more of a fluid approach with information to build the truth. Both are examples of truth.

For example, Mathew has a genealogy of Christ and so does Luke but they are different. Mathew uses records with 3 groups of 14 generations called a tresseradecad which was a specific Jewish custom in organizing genealogies. Matthew and Luke are both organized in this way and both seem to be forced to omit information to accomplish this because their focus was more about this way of organizing it than it was literal.

Matthew also seems to really emphasize Christ's royal line which differs from Lukes. It is possible for generations to take different paths and still end in the same place but you do have to take the mother's path sometimes in order to accomplish this. Possibly that is what happened or maybe Matthew had a different focus and adjusted the information to proclaim his royal lineaged better which is not uncommon in Eastern thinking like Christ is automatically adopted into this line so it may be used to describe his lineage even if not true.

Which genealogy do you think is truth because in order for both to be you must put away a strict literal view.

crossnote · Feb 19, 2019

DamianWarS said:
Eastern philosophy truth is different than Western philosophy truth. Western thinking demands facts to build the truth where Eastern thinking can use more of a fluid approach with information to build the truth. Both are examples of truth.

For example, Mathew has a genealogy of Christ and so does Luke but they are different. Mathew uses records with 3 groups of 14 generations called a tresseradecad which was a specific Jewish custom in organizing genealogies. Matthew and Luke are both organized in this way and both seem to be forced to omit information to accomplish this because their focus was more about this way of organizing it than it was literal.

Matthew also seems to really emphasize Christ's royal line which differs from Lukes. It is possible for generations to take different paths and still end in the same place but you do have to take the mother's path sometimes in order to accomplish this. Possibly that is what happened or maybe Matthew had a different focus and adjusted the information to proclaim his royal lineaged better which is not uncommon in Eastern thinking like Christ is automatically adopted into this line so it may be used to describe his lineage even if not true.

Which genealogy do you think is truth because in order for both to be you must put away a strict literal view.

Genealogies are facts locked into time and space, I don't put them in the 'truth' category.. Even if there may be missing sections in a written genealogy God knows only the ONE (not two) that actually took place. If He decided to hide it through literary devices, so be it, then apparently He did not intend for us to take it literally but yet there is an absolute literal genealogy known to God...unless you are trying to say Matthew was into Eastern philosophy and Luke into Western, which I doubt both writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Satan, (you do believe he exists right, as a personal being opposed to God's purposes, and not a representation of that which is evil?) would just love us to drop a literal approach to Scripture. That has been his game plan from the beginning with 'Hath God said?".

prodromos · Feb 20, 2019

DamianWarS said:
Which genealogy do you think is truth because in order for both to be you must put away a strict literal view.

Both genealogies are true. Joseph is rather unique in that he is the result of his legal father dying childless, so his father's brother (his biological father) lay with his widow and raised up seed for his dead brother. The two brothers were also unique in that while they shared the same mother, they had different fathers, their mother being widowed after her first son was born, then remarrying and producing another son.

DamianWarS · Feb 20, 2019

crossnote said:
Genealogies are facts locked into time and space, I don't put them in the 'truth' category.. Even if there may be missing sections in a written genealogy God knows only the ONE (not two) that actually took place. If He decided to hide it through literary devices, so be it, then apparently He did not intend for us to take it literally but yet there is an absolute literal genealogy known to God...unless you are trying to say Matthew was into Eastern philosophy and Luke into Western, which I doubt both writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Satan, (you do believe he exists right, as a personal being opposed to God's purposes, and not a representation of that which is evil?) would just love us to drop a literal approach to Scripture. That has been his game plan from the beginning with 'Hath God said?".

eastern/western philosophies are inherently embedded in the way someone thinks and responds to things. someone doesn't have to be one or the other and they can exhibit a mix of both. Hebrews fall under eastern philosophy they have something called Hebraic block logic where information can be organized in self contained blocks of information that tell their own account but when put together they don't have to agree with each other.

The creation account in Gen 1 is a perfect example where each day is a block of information. Day 1 light is spoken and day 4 the Sun/moon/star/etc.. are created for the purposes of giving light. On a literal timeline these don't reconcile but block logic doesn't care about what is rationally organized and the purpose of the creation account has a goal where the information that builds that goal is fluid and organized to make the point but not necessarily to state fact. Jump to Gen 2 and you have a different creation account, again another block of information that has a different goal and so the information is organized differently and the two don't have to agree with each other.

the same philosophy is used in these genealogies. both use information to make a point but the information is inconsistent and somewhat fluid, not just missing but actually in conflict with each other. This is done to emphasize different points, and as states, Matthew's version seems to be fixed at a royal lineage.

The account of the wise men could be an example of eastern embellishment and would be consistent with Mathew's royal line theme he already established in the genealogy. Does the account become less true if the wise men are adopted into the account to emphasize his nobility? It's organized in a way valuing information cascading around the main point.

DamianWarS · Feb 20, 2019

prodromos said:
Both genealogies are true. Joseph is rather unique in that he is the result of his legal father dying childless, so his father's brother (his biological father) lay with his widow and raised up seed for his dead brother. The two brothers were also unique in that while they shared the same mother, they had different fathers, their mother being widowed after her first son was born, then remarrying and producing another son.

I would like to find the source of that account. I have heard of others, that one is Mary's and the other's is Joseph since Mary is claimed to have no brothers so Joseph became the heir of the family with official status, even legal rights to the lineage. I know Orthodox have a lot of non-stated accounts in their traditions that are sort of in the voids of scripture but may I suggest that this can also be an example of eastern philosophy where the actual facts matter less than what is Orthodox.

Take for example the first council of Niece. How many bishops were in attendance? The traditional number is 318 but it actually was probably less than 300. So why say 318? 318 is the number of men Abraham gathered to rescue Lot and 318 can also represent Christ. I would suggest that 318 is the royal number here, the number that tells the story best and authenticates it. Even if a signed confession from Athanasius himself was found that said the number was below 300 I don't think this would change the traditional number from 318 because 318 is the better number. The actual number doesn't matter what matters is that which is Orthodox and I think in this case the details surrounding the genealogies are the same. There is perhaps an Orthodox account but that doesn't mean that it's true.

crossnote · Feb 20, 2019

DamianWarS said:
eastern/western philosophies are inherently embedded in the way someone thinks and responds to things. someone doesn't have to be one or the other and they can exhibit a mix of both. Hebrews fall under eastern philosophy they have something called Hebraic block logic where information can be organized in self contained blocks of information that tell their own account but when put together they don't have to agree with each other.

The creation account in Gen 1 is a perfect example where each day is a block of information. Day 1 light is spoken and day 4 the Sun/moon/star/etc.. are created for the purposes of giving light. On a literal timeline these don't reconcile but block logic doesn't care about what is rationally organized and the purpose of the creation account has a goal where the information that builds that goal is fluid and organized to make the point but not necessarily to state fact. Jump to Gen 2 and you have a different creation account, again another block of information that has a different goal and so the information is organized differently and the two don't have to agree with each other.

the same philosophy is used in these genealogies. both use information to make a point but the information is inconsistent and somewhat fluid, not just missing but actually in conflict with each other. This is done to emphasize different points, and as states, Matthew's version seems to be fixed at a royal lineage.

The account of the wise men could be an example of eastern embellishment and would be consistent with Mathew's royal line theme he already established in the genealogy. Does the account become less true if the wise men are adopted into the account to emphasize his nobility? It's organized in a way valuing information cascading around the main point.

I essentially agree with above except with the example of 'light' in Genesis 1...
Genesis 1:3 NKJV
[3] Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

This was the first recorded words of God speaking and through His Words light (understanding) was given. (on a lesser scale without words we would be in darkness).The second was a matter of physical entities...e.g. Sun, moon, stars. I believe they are two separate events, separated by verses 4-14.

DamianWarS · Feb 20, 2019

crossnote said:
I essentially agree with above except with the example of 'light' in Genesis 1...
Genesis 1:3 NKJV
[3] Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

This was the first recorded words of God speaking and through His Words light (understanding) was given. (on a lesser scale without words we would be in darkness).The second was a matter of physical entities...e.g. Sun, moon, stars. I believe they are two separate events, separated by verses 4-14.

that's a bit of a cheat answer and it sounds like you're forcing the text to be reconciled. I believe day 1/4 is the same event they are just separated out into different blocks to tell the account and make the points it wants to make.

There's a lot of parallels in the creation account which is typical in Hebrew poetry. compare days 1/4, days 2/5, and days 3/6. God first speaks things into being on the first 3 days, then he "fills" them up in days 4-6. The word "create" in Hebrew literally means "to fatten" or more sensibly to "fill up". So God spoke the water/sky into being on day 2 then he filled them up on day 5. your theory of understanding doesn't fit these parallels.

crossnote · Feb 20, 2019

DamianWarS said:
that's a bit of a cheat answer and it sounds like you're forcing the text to be reconciled. I believe day 1/4 is the same event they are just separated out into different blocks to tell the account and make the points it wants to make.

There's a lot of parallels in the creation account which is typical in Hebrew poetry. compare days 1/4, days 2/5, and days 3/6. God first speaks things into being on the first 3 days, then he "fills" them up in days 4-6. The word "create" in Hebrew literally means "to fatten" or more sensibly to "fill up". So God spoke the water/sky into being on day 2 then he filled them up on day 5. your theory of understanding does fit these parallels.

a cheat answer? nice. I'll let God reveal His actual intention on that Day, in the meantime I'll navigate between the natural understanding of man and what I understand God's Spirit is revealing through His Word.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (KJV) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

DamianWarS · Feb 20, 2019

crossnote said:
a cheat answer? nice. I'll let God reveal His actual intention on that Day, in the meantime I'll navigate between the natural understanding of man and what I understand God's Spirit is revealing through His Word.

you mean the natural understanding of man according to ancient Hebrews of course.

crossnote · Feb 20, 2019

DamianWarS said:
you mean the natural understanding of man according to ancient Hebrews of course.

I mean the natural understanding of man as revealed in God's Word, which is a true condition of man apart from the new birth, an understanding alienated from the life of God and led by the prince of this world...

Ephesians 2:1-3 (NASB) And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

1 Corinthians 2:6-15 (NASB) Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.

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Bring Back the Wise Men

DamianWarS

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crossnote

Berean

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prodromos

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DamianWarS

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DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih

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crossnote

Berean

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DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih

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crossnote

Berean

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DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih

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crossnote

Berean

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