Eschatology for dummies :)

claninja said:

That is a possible interpretation, one I would probably could agree with: Body of Christ and OT saints.

But as Hebrews 11 clearly states they are not made perfect APART from the church.



I absolutely agree with this.

2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.



I disagree that they are not part of the body of Christ.

Apart from the body of Christ they are not made perfect, as the author of Hebrews clearly states

Hebrews 11:39-40 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.




The new Jerusalem is the body of Christ. So if you believe that the OT saints will be in the New Jerusalem, then you believe they are part of the Body of Christ.

1.)BOTH the new Jerusalem and the body of Christ are the bride of Christ

Revelation 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."

Ephesians 5:31 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

2.)BOTH the new Jerusalem and the body of Christ are built on the foundation of the apostles

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Ephesians 2:19-20 but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone

3.) BOTH the new Jerusalem and body of Christ are where God dwells with his people.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling placea of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

Ephesians 2:21-22 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God bye the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 6:16 For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.



Christ is the heir of the promises made to Abraham. So not sure how anyone outside of Christ could inherit anything.

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

Hebrews 1:2 in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world

The author of Hebrews clearly states the OT saints acknowledged that they were strangers ON EARTH and were longing for a HEAVENLY country. Thus, I disagree that the OT saints are separate from the Church, for they longed for the same things as the NT saints: a heavenly dwelling.

Hebrews 11:13-16 All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. Now those who say such things show that they are seeking a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Click to expand...

Hi claninja,

A lot of ground to cover there. Glad we can agree on some of it. Now let`s get to the basis of what you are saying and see the scriptures. Let`s start with your first statement.

1.)BOTH the new Jerusalem and the body of Christ are the bride of Christ

Revelation 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."

Ephesians 5:31 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

I do not see that God`s word says - The New Jerusalem is the Body of Christ. (or holds...)
I do not see that God`s word says the Body of Christ is the Bride.

You are inferring from scripture and that is not how we know our doctrine. Care to elaborate more?

Marilyn.

Marilyn C said:

Hi claninja,

A lot of ground to cover there. Glad we can agree on some of it. Now let`s get to the basis of what you are saying and see the scriptures. Let`s start with your first statement.

1.)BOTH the new Jerusalem and the body of Christ are the bride of Christ

Revelation 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."

Ephesians 5:31 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

I do not see that God`s word says - The New Jerusalem is the Body of Christ. (or holds...)
I do not see that God`s word says the Body of Christ is the Bride.

You are inferring from scripture and that is not how we know our doctrine. Care to elaborate more?

Marilyn.

Click to expand...

Hi Marilyn,

Maybe a simple math formula with help. If A=B and B=C, we know that A=C

apply this to the body of Christ as described in Ephesians by Paul, and the New Jerusalem described by John in Revelation

IF

A (body of Christ) =B (description)
Body of Christ is bride of Christ (ephesians 5:31-32)
Body of Christ is built on the foundation of the apostles (Ephesians 2:20)
Body of Christ is where God dwells (ephesians 2:22, 2 Corinthians 6:16).

AND

B (description)=C (New Jerusalem)
The Bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem (revelation 21:9)
Built on the foundation of apostles is the New Jerusalem (revelation 21:14)
God dwells in the New Jerusalem (revelation 21:3)

Then

A (body of Christ) = C (New Jerusalem)

claninja said:

Hi Marilyn,

Maybe a simple math formula with help. If A=B and B=C, we know that A=C

apply this to the body of Christ as described in Ephesians by Paul, and the New Jerusalem described by John in Revelation

IF

A (body of Christ) =B (description)
Body of Christ is bride of Christ (ephesians 5:31-32)
Body of Christ is built on the foundation of the apostles (Ephesians 2:20)
Body of Christ is where God dwells (ephesians 2:22, 2 Corinthians 6:16).

AND

B (description)=C (New Jerusalem)
The Bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem (revelation 21:9)
Built on the foundation of apostles is the New Jerusalem (revelation 21:14)
God dwells in the New Jerusalem (revelation 21:3)

Then

A (body of Christ) = C (New Jerusalem)

Click to expand...

Hi claninja,

Thank you for the great summary of your view. As I have been taught differently, maybe we can look at that too. So...A ....C The Body of Christ`s inheritance, (C) is based on the doctrine of A. Yes I realise it looks obvious, but I have studied that view and I do believe this other view.

Let`s look at what the Apostle Paul is saying, by the Holy Spirit to the believers. Paul reveals that the Ekkeslia, (called out ones) are His body of which He is the head. (Eph. 1: 22 & 23) Then Paul goes on to say that God is creating `a new man` of both Jews and Gentiles. (Eph. 2: 15)

This was not revealed previously, Paul says, but is now made known to them. The Body of Christ will be brought to maturity ` to a perfect man,` (Eph. 4: 13) growing up into Him who is the head. (Eph. 4: 15)

Christ the head is masculine and His Body also, we are told is masculine.

This is a doctrine, a teaching that the Apostle Paul has taken the first 4 chapters to develop. And we would all agree with that, I think.

So now to chapter 5 which we can see is not now doctrine but exhortation, practical living - wives and husbands, (& children in Ch. 6) What Paul is saying in Eph. 5: 22 - 32 is that in the same manner in which the Head loves the members of the Body, let a man love his wife like that.

Paul does not say that the Body is the Bride, it is read into it for it is not there. We, the Body of Christ are not masculine for 4 chapters and then suddenly now female. There is a Bride and God`s word does tell us who that is. Will wait for your response so far.

Marilyn.

Marilyn C said:

Let`s look at what the Apostle Paul is saying, by the Holy Spirit to the believers. Paul reveals that the Ekkeslia, (called out ones) are His body of which He is the head. (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

Click to expand...

Correct, the Church is the body of Christ, and Christ is the head of that body

Ephesians 1:22-23 And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Corinthians 12:27-28 Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues.

Just as the husband is the head of the wife, and the wife the body of the husband

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior

Ephesians 5:28-29 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. Indeed, no one ever hated his own body, but he nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church. For we are members of His body.

Marilyn C said:

Then Paul goes on to say that God is creating `a new man` of both Jews and Gentiles. (Eph. 2: 15)

Click to expand...

The greek word for "man" in this case is "anthrópos", while it is a masculine noun, it does NOT HAVE to necessarily mean specifically a male. There is a specific greek word for "male" and it is "aner". Anthropos can be used in the generic sense of mankind: male, female, group, class.

DEFINITION:
444 ánthrōpos – man, also the generic term for "mankind"; the human race; people, including women and men (Mt 4:19, 12:12, etc.).

444 (anthrōpos) relates to both genders (male and female) as both are created in the image of God – each equally vested with individual personhood and destiny (cf. Gal 3:28). Accordingly, the Bible uses 444 (ánthrōpos) of a specific man, woman, or class (type, group) of people – i.e. mankind in general (inclusive of every man, woman and child; see also 1 Cor 11:7). (435 /anḗr specifically refers to a male and 1135 /gynḗ to a female.)

And since the context isn't specifically about a single male man, but about 2 groups of people, jews and gentiles, that consist of both male and female, I would argue anthropos in this case refers to the creation of a new mankind.

Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace

Marilyn C said:

Christ the head is masculine and His Body also, we are told is masculine.

Click to expand...

The body of Christ is also genderless in another instance.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The body of Christ is also compared to a feminine virgin to be betrothed to a husband (Christ).

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

So your argument of "the body of Christ must be masculine and therefore can't be a bride to Christ" isn't really a solid argument against the Church being the bride.

Marilyn C said:

So now to chapter 5 which we can see is not now doctrine but exhortation, practical living - wives and husbands, (& children in Ch. 6) What Paul is saying in Eph. 5: 22 - 32 is that in the same manner in which the Head loves the members of the Body, let a man love his wife like that.

Click to expand...

Paul specifically states that marriage, the husband and wife becoming one flesh, is a profound MYSTERY. He then goes even further to explain that mystery: that the 2 becoming one flesh is a picture of Christ and the Church.

Ephesians 5:31-32 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

Why is the husband to love his wife as his own body? the mystery is revealed in Christ. For Just as Christ loved the Church (his body) so to is the man to love his wife (his body).

Ephesians 5:28-29 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. Indeed, no one ever hated his own body, but he nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church. For we are members of His body.

Again, types and anti-types. Man and woman becoming one flesh = type, Christ and the Church = Anti-type.

Marilyn C said:

Paul does not say that the Body is the Bride, it is read into it for it is not there.

Click to expand...

Paul specifically states the Mystery of marriage (man and wife becoming one flesh) is specifically rooted in Christ and Church becoming one flesh (Christ the head, the church is the body).

Ephesians 5:31-32 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

So I disagree with your reasoning.

Marilyn C said:

We, the Body of Christ are not masculine for 4 chapters and then suddenly now female.

Click to expand...

Through Christ, God was creating a new mankind, that was both Jew and Gentile. This new mankind is referred to as genderless (Galatians 3:28) and as a wife (Ephesians 5:32-33, 2 Corinthians 11:2).

Marilyn C said:

There is a Bride and God`s word does tell us who that is. Will wait for your response so far.

Click to expand...

Correct, scripture does. It is the Church, which is the New Jerusalem.


IF

A (body of Christ) =B (description)
Body of Christ is bride of Christ (ephesians 5:31-32)
Body of Christ is built on the foundation of the apostles (Ephesians 2:20)
Body of Christ is where God dwells (ephesians 2:22, 2 Corinthians 6:16).

AND

B (description)=C (New Jerusalem)
The Bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem (revelation 21:9)
Built on the foundation of apostles is the New Jerusalem (revelation 21:14)
God dwells in the New Jerusalem (revelation 21:3)

Then

A (body of Christ) = C (New Jerusalem)

claninja said:

Correct, the Church is the body of Christ, and Christ is the head of that body

Ephesians 1:22-23 And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Corinthians 12:27-28 Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues.

Just as the husband is the head of the wife, and the wife the body of the husband

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior

Ephesians 5:28-29 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. Indeed, no one ever hated his own body, but he nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church. For we are members of His body.



The greek word for "man" in this case is "anthrópos", while it is a masculine noun, it does NOT HAVE to necessarily mean specifically a male. There is a specific greek word for "male" and it is "aner". Anthropos can be used in the generic sense of mankind: male, female, group, class.

DEFINITION:
444 ánthrōpos – man, also the generic term for "mankind"; the human race; people, including women and men (Mt 4:19, 12:12, etc.).

444 (anthrōpos) relates to both genders (male and female) as both are created in the image of God – each equally vested with individual personhood and destiny (cf. Gal 3:28). Accordingly, the Bible uses 444 (ánthrōpos) of a specific man, woman, or class (type, group) of people – i.e. mankind in general (inclusive of every man, woman and child; see also 1 Cor 11:7). (435 /anḗr specifically refers to a male and 1135 /gynḗ to a female.)

And since the context isn't specifically about a single male man, but about 2 groups of people, jews and gentiles, that consist of both male and female, I would argue anthropos in this case refers to the creation of a new mankind.

Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace



The body of Christ is also genderless in another instance.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The body of Christ is also compared to a feminine virgin to be betrothed to a husband (Christ).

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

So your argument of "the body of Christ must be masculine and therefore can't be a bride to Christ" isn't really a solid argument against the Church being the bride.



Paul specifically states that marriage, the husband and wife becoming one flesh, is a profound MYSTERY. He then goes even further to explain that mystery: that the 2 becoming one flesh is a picture of Christ and the Church.

Ephesians 5:31-32 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

Why is the husband to love his wife as his own body? the mystery is revealed in Christ. For Just as Christ loved the Church (his body) so to is the man to love his wife (his body).

Ephesians 5:28-29 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. Indeed, no one ever hated his own body, but he nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church. For we are members of His body.

Again, types and anti-types. Man and woman becoming one flesh = type, Christ and the Church = Anti-type.




Paul specifically states the Mystery of marriage (man and wife becoming one flesh) is specifically rooted in Christ and Church becoming one flesh (Christ the head, the church is the body).

Ephesians 5:31-32 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

So I disagree with your reasoning.



Through Christ, God was creating a new mankind, that was both Jew and Gentile. This new mankind is referred to as genderless (Galatians 3:28) and as a wife (Ephesians 5:32-33, 2 Corinthians 11:2).



Correct, scripture does. It is the Church, which is the New Jerusalem.


IF

A (body of Christ) =B (description)
Body of Christ is bride of Christ (ephesians 5:31-32)
Body of Christ is built on the foundation of the apostles (Ephesians 2:20)
Body of Christ is where God dwells (ephesians 2:22, 2 Corinthians 6:16).

AND

B (description)=C (New Jerusalem)
The Bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem (revelation 21:9)
Built on the foundation of apostles is the New Jerusalem (revelation 21:14)
God dwells in the New Jerusalem (revelation 21:3)

Then

A (body of Christ) = C (New Jerusalem)

Click to expand...

Hi claninja,

Thank you for your detailed response. I would still like to make some comments on the Body/bride before we look at the other parts of that view. Doesn`t mean we have to agree before we go on, though.

Thank you for the meaning of the Greek words. Still as Christ is the Head and He is male, then His Body also would be referred to as male. Yes, there is neither male or female In the body, however the relationship we have with the Lord is as Head and His Body, thus male. There is a reason for this which will become clear if & when we look at the New Jerusalem, (as a Bride).

The `one flesh` actually agrees with male, as Christ is male and we, His Body.

Now to this verse you presented. The Apostle Paul is speaking to his disciples whom he so desires that they be pure. The picture is of purity.

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

Note that the Apostle Paul wants to present them to Christ. It can`t be us, as scripture says that the Lord Himself wants to present us to Himself.

`Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to PRESENT YOU faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy...` (Jude 24)

Marilyn.

Marilyn C said:

Thank you for the meaning of the Greek words. Still as Christ is the Head and He is male, then His Body also would be referred to as male. Yes, there is neither male or female In the body, however the relationship we have with the Lord is as Head and His Body, thus male. There is a reason for this which will become clear if & when we look at the New Jerusalem, (as a Bride).

The `one flesh` actually agrees with male, as Christ is male and we, His Body.

Click to expand...

Hi Marilyn,

I'm not really understanding your point.

I'll use my marriage as an example. My wife and I are one flesh. I am the head and she is the body. Does that make my wife male because I am the head? No of course not.

God often uses the physical (types) to show us the spiritual (anti-types).

As man (head) and woman (body) are one flesh (type) so to is Christ (head) and the church (body). Thus Paul is stating that the true purpose of earthly marriage is to point to Christ and his Church.

When you are born again (type) do you literally come out of your mother's womb again, or does it symbolize a greater spiritual truth (anti-type).

You are putting so much emphasis on this "male" relationship that you don't appear to understand the spiritual truth. The church is described in masculine tones, feminine tones, and genderless tones. So your argument doesn't work.

Marilyn C said:

Now to this verse you presented. The Apostle Paul is speaking to his disciples whom he so desires that they be pure. The picture is of purity.

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

Click to expand...

I agree, it's a picture of purity. Additionally, Is Paul comparing the church to a man or woman in this instance?

"Repent! For the kingdom of God is at hand!"

About the most simplified eschatology there is

claninja said:

Hi Marilyn,

I'm not really understanding your point.

I'll use my marriage as an example. My wife and I are one flesh. I am the head and she is the body. Does that make my wife male because I am the head? No of course not.

God often uses the physical (types) to show us the spiritual (anti-types).

As man (head) and woman (body) are one flesh (type) so to is Christ (head) and the church (body). Thus Paul is stating that the true purpose of earthly marriage is to point to Christ and his Church.

When you are born again (type) do you literally come out of your mother's womb again, or does it symbolize a greater spiritual truth (anti-type).

You are putting so much emphasis on this "male" relationship that you don't appear to understand the spiritual truth. The church is described in masculine tones, feminine tones, and genderless tones. So your argument doesn't work.


I agree, it's a picture of purity. Additionally, Is Paul comparing the church to a man or woman in this instance?

Click to expand...

Hi claninja,

Eph. 5: 22 - 33 concerns Christ`s LOVE for His Body, and that is how a man should LOVE his wife. It is an exhortation of how they should live. it is NOT a basis for doctrine.

Have you realised that this view which leads to where we will spend eternity is based on an `exhortation?`

Perhaps we need to move on to your other points in A. OK?

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

Marilyn C said:

Eph. 5: 22 - 33 concerns Christ`s LOVE for His Body, and that is how a man should LOVE his wife. It is an exhortation of how they should live. it is NOT a basis for doctrine.

Click to expand...

While I agree that Men loving their wives as Christ loved the Church is an exhortation, it is NOT A MYSTERY.

What was a mystery is that marriage represents Christ and the church. However, Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, reaveled this mystery in his letter to the ephesians.

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

Marilyn C said:

Have you realised that this view which leads to where we will spend eternity is based on an `exhortation?`

Click to expand...

This is only problematic for those that that believe in different groups of believers (OT and NT).

However, for those that believe there is only one group: the faithful and obedient, this is not problematic.

Marilyn C said:

Perhaps we need to move on to your other points in A. OK?

Click to expand...

Whenever you're ready.

Marilyn C said:

Christ the head is masculine and His Body also, we are told is masculine.

Click to expand...

Notice paul refers to the Church as "HER" in Ephesians 5. The greek word is autos which can mean: he, she, it, they, them, same. The greek word in this case is "FEMININE 3rd person singular". Here is what the feminine form looks like: αὐτὴν. It is only used in the feminine form when it refers to the female gender.

Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her (autes), that he might sanctify her (auten), having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

If the greek word auto was to refer to the male gender, it would have a different ending: αὐτοῦ (autou). This is "MASCULINE 3rd person singular". We can see this used in other scriptures.

Let's look at example with both masculine and feminine uses of Auto.

Matthew 5:31 It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him (autou) give her (aute) a certificate of divorce.’


Thus, since Paul uses the FEMININE form of AUTO in regards to the church, your argument again doesn't work.

claninja said:

Hi Marilyn,



While I agree that Men loving their wives as Christ loved the Church is an exhortation, it is NOT A MYSTERY.

What was a mystery is that marriage represents Christ and the church. However, Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, reaveled this mystery in his letter to the ephesians.

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.




This is only problematic for those that that believe in different groups of believers (OT and NT).

However, for those that believe there is only one group: the faithful and obedient, this is not problematic.




Whenever you're ready.



Notice paul refers to the Church as "HER" in Ephesians 5. The greek word is autos which can mean: he, she, it, they, them, same. The greek word in this case is "FEMININE 3rd person singular". Here is what the feminine form looks like: αὐτὴν. It is only used in the feminine form when it refers to the female gender.

Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her (autes), that he might sanctify her (auten), having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

If the greek word auto was to refer to the male gender, it would have a different ending: αὐτοῦ (autou). This is "MASCULINE 3rd person singular". We can see this used in other scriptures.

Let's look at example with both masculine and feminine uses of Auto.

Matthew 5:31 It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him (autou) give her (aute) a certificate of divorce.’


Thus, since Paul uses the FEMININE form of AUTO in regards to the church, your argument again doesn't work.

Click to expand...

Hi Claninja,

`Wives submit to your husbands, as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife as also Christ is head of the church; and saviour of the Body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Husbands love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So husbands ought to love their own wives as their bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of his flesh and His bones….

This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.` (Eph. 5: 22 - 32)

Wives are to submit, (listen) to their husbands, husbands are to love their wives. Great exhortation on living.

Then the Apostle Paul reveals that we, the Body of Christ, the church, the called out ones, the Ekklesia, (Eph.1: 23) are members of Christ`s own body. That is the profound mystery that was not revealed before. That is the truth that Paul was revealing, by the Holy Spirit throughout the letter to the Ephesians.

As to the Greek word, as you said, it can mean `it.` And the context shows that the `it,` is the Body of Christ.

I will prepare some notes for your next point - the Apostles.

Marilyn.

straykat said:

"Repent! For the kingdom of God is at hand!"

About the most simplified eschatology there is

Click to expand...

But what exactly is the KoG?

Matthew 21:43
Therefore I am saying to ye, that shall be being taken-away from Ye, the Kingdom of God, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the Fruits of it.
Luke 21:31
"Thus also ye, whenever ye may be seeing these-things becoming, ye are knowing that nigh is the Kingdom of the God."'
Romans 13:11
And this knowing the time, that hour it-is already out of sleep to be roused, for now nearer/egguteron <1452> of us the Salvation than when we believed.
12 The Night progresses, the yet Day has-neared. We should be putting off then the works of the Darkness, we should be putting on the implements of the Light.

Revelation 12:10
And I hear great voice in the Heaven saying "now became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him,
that was cast the Accuser of the brothers of us, the one-accusing them in sight of the God of us day and night. [John 5:45/2 Tim 4:1]

Kindgdom Bible Studies Kingdom of God Part 1

“KINGDOM” — what a magical ring that word plays upon the ear, yet when it comes to the subject of the Kingdom of God there seems to be no end to the carnal-minded reasonings of man as to what it is, where it is, and how it will come to pass. If you were to ask several average professed Christians what the Kingdom of God is, you would receive a variety of answers.

There are a great many ideas, opinions, interpretations, conceptions and mis-conceptions among believers as to what constitutes the Kingdom of God. Vast multitudes of people believe that any minute Jesus will appear in the sky and whisk away (rapture) those who are saved and take them to heaven to enjoy the Kingdom of God.
They teach that the Kingdom of God is heaven and that it has no relationship with the earth. For these the “end time” means the cataclysmic end of the universe, the destruction of the earth by fire, the sending of all unbelievers and wicked people to eternal damnation in hell, and the establishing of an eternal order of bliss for the saved in some far-off heaven somewhere.

Others teach that the Kingdom of God is purely earthly, and that it will be a political and social structure enforced on earth for a thousand years at the return of Jesus Christ with His saints to rule and reign. This theory has been popularized by the Schofield Bible.
To these the Kingdom of God is the restored kingdom of Israel fulfilling the Davidic covenant. Jesus offered this kingdom to the Jews, but they refused; therefore Christ withdrew His offer and postponed it until a future time when they would accept Him as their King. When that day comes, they say, Jesus will come back and set His feet upon the Mount of Olives. His saints with Him, He will come to the eastern gate of Jerusalem.
Having been sealed up for centuries, this gate will be opened for Him to pass through into the city. He will then set up His headquarters in a building, sit on a throne, and be crowned King. His Kingdom will then be established.
People from all nations will journey to Jerusalem to see Jesus — in person — and to worship Him in a millennial temple there. From Jerusalem the Kingdom will expand to rule over all nations. The nations will quit fighting — will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks and there will follow a thousand years of unparalleled peace, blessing, prosperity, and righteousness.

Still another teaching is that the Church (organized Christianity) is the Kingdom of God. The covenantal promises God made with Abraham and David have been transferred to and fulfilled spiritually in the Church.
The Church is thus the New Israel in the earth. This theory prevailed during the Middle Ages (also called the Dark Ages) when the supreme head of the Church (the Pope), complete with a crown, a throne, a government and an army, ruled the nations of Europe for a thousand years as the Kingdom of God on earth. Unfortunately, this period, instead of being the most enlightening, progressive, prosperous, righteous and glorious epoch in history was in fact the darkest, most illiterate and ignorant, superstitious and backward, of earth’s generations!

Some among us even today believe that the Kingdom will come as a result of Christians becoming politically active, taking over the existing political institutions, getting elected to office, and ruling the earth through the power of politics
=============================
1. The Kingdom of God 3

2. The Realm of the Kingdom of Heaven 16

3. The Realm of the Kingdom of Heaven (cont.) 30

4. Birthed into the Kingdom 44

5. Birthed into the Kingdom (cont.) 55

6. Birthed into the Kingdom (cont.) 69

7. The Beginning of the Kingdom 83

8. The Beginning of the Kingdom (cont.) 98

9. The Beginning of the Kingdom (cont.) 112

10. The Nature of the Kingdom 125

11. My Kingdom is not of this World 139

12. The Kingdom Within 153

13 The Kingdom Within (cont.) 168

Marilyn C said:

Wives are to submit, (listen) to their husbands, husbands are to love their wives. Great exhortation on living.

Click to expand...

Agree, But this is not profound mystery.

Marilyn C said:

Then the Apostle Paul reveals that we, the Body of Christ, the church, the called out ones, the Ekklesia, (Eph.1: 23) are members of Christ`s own body. That is the profound mystery that was not revealed before. That is the truth that Paul was revealing, by the Holy Spirit throughout the letter to the Ephesians.

Click to expand...

Do you agree, the husband is the head of the wife, just Christ is the head of the Church?

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body

Do you agree the wife is the body of the husband, just as the church is body of Christ?

Ephesians 5:28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church.

Do you agree that the wife and husband are one flesh?

Ephesians 5:31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

Marilyn C said:

As to the Greek word, as you said, it can mean `it.` And the context shows that the `it,` is the Body of Christ.

Click to expand...

Absolutely correct, the "it/her" is the church. In either case, the pronoun is in a FEMININE FORM because the noun Ekklesian (church) is a Feminine noun.

Ephesians 5:25-26 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church (feminine) and gave himself up for her/it, that he might sanctify her/it, having cleansed her/it by the washing of water with the word

So what we see, is that Paul states Husbands (masculine noun) are to love their wives (feminine noun) AS Christ (masculine noun) loved the Church (feminine noun).

Is a wife the bride of a husband?

straykat said:

"Repent! For the kingdom of God is at hand!"

About the most simplified eschatology there is

Click to expand...

....until the questions come up about "WHAT is the Kingdom of God?".....and "when is 'at hand'?"....

ETA: I posted before seeing LLoJ's post. See what I mean? Simplified until.....

mkgal1 said:

....until the questions come up about "WHAT is the Kingdom of God?".....and "when is 'at hand'?"....

Click to expand...

I admit, my post was cryptic. I'm an amillenialist. The Kingdom - and the powers working against it - are always playing out in our lives, no matter the era. That's not to say there isn't a real return of our Lord either though. There is, but there are also "life and death" choices all ages of the church goes through, eschatology always playing out, and many "antichrists" out in the world that we must thwart.

Marilyn C said:

Wives are to submit, (listen)

Click to expand...

I disagree. The "mystery" isn't about "listening" - it's about the unity between man and wife/Christ and the church.....the one flesh harmony.

Since it's a mystery, I believe this is more of a metaphor and not a direct translation - so "attaching; appending; subjoining" makes the most sense to me. Concepts that are mysteries take more than word for word translation:

Hupotasso, from BDAG (the go-to Koine Greek lexicon for language scholars):

1. (In the active) To cause to be in a submissive relationship, to subject, to subordinate.
(In the passive) become subject to, subject oneself, be subjected or subordinated. (Of submission involving recognition of an ordered structure, w. dat. of the entity to whom/which appropriate respect is shown; of submission in the sense of voluntary yielding in love)

2. To add a document at the end of another document; attach, append, subjoin.

It's worth noting that it's a compound verb, with the "hupo" prefix being added to the verb for "to order, arrange, put in place." In effect its compound sense is something like "be ordered under, arranged with."

straykat said:

I admit, my post was cryptic. I'm an amillenialist. The Kingdom - and the powers working against it - are always playing out in our lives, no matter the era. That's not to say there isn't a real return of our Lord either though. There is, but there are also "life and death" choices all ages of the church goes through, eschatology always playing out, and many "antichrists" out in the world that we must thwart.

Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with that. If I remember correctly, 1 billion Roman Catholics are also Amill.
I am a Preterist and leaning toward full preterism/full Covenantle Fulfillment because I view Revelation as "Covenantle", but not quite there yet.
Here is an interesting thread on amill and preterism beliefs.............

Difference between amillennialism & preterism

yedida said:

Could someone please tell me the differences between amillennialism and preterism (partial vs full as well)?
I've tried googling and found several websites, but truth be told, I got so lost in it that I quit still not really knowing any answers.
Thanks in advance.
Just dumb it down royally, please.

Click to expand...

CryptoLutheran said:

Amillennialism is a specific position in regard to the Millennium, it says that the Millennium isn't intended to describe a literal period of time, but rather describes Christ's reign at the Father's right hand until the time of His coming.

Preterism is a position in regard to prophetic interpretation, sometimes contrasted with Futurism and Historicism. Historicism would argue, for example, that what St. John the Revelator wrote has had an ongoing fulfillment since his day to ours, the earliest Protestants were Historicists, which led Luther, Calvin (et al) to conclude that the Papacy fulfilled the eschatological role of Antichrist and Beast (not the person of the Pope, per se, but rather the office of Pope). Futurists would posit that all or most of everything in the Revelation will be fulfilled at a heretofore unspecified point in the future, Dispensationalists fall in this category (and they are also Premillennialists).

Preterism, on the other hand, states that much (partial) or all (full) of what St. John wrote, or what Jesus spoke about in the Olivet Discourse (etc) had its fulfillment, or was primarily about, stuff that took place in the first century and the time of John himself. Hyper-Preterism goes so far as to argue that the Parousia--the Second Coming--occurred in 70 AD when the Roman army destroyed the Temple, they believe this was a visitation of Judgment, the return or appearing of Christ, against the old order represented by Jerusalem and the Temple. Hyper-Preterism is regarded as heretical by mainstream Christianity as the Historic Creeds are clear that the Lord will return at the end to raise the dead bodily (Hyper-Preterism denies the resurrection of the body, which is, again, heretical).

The two involve different aspects of eschatology, one could be both Amillennial and a Preterist, one could be Amillennial but not a Preterist. Luther, Calvin and other early Protestants were Amillennialists and Historicists, one can also be Amillennial and a Futurist.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

CryptoLutheran said:

Futurism is the position that much of the prophetic and/or apocalyptic material in Scripture (such as stuff in Daniel, the Olivet Discourse, the Revelation of St. John, Ezekiel and many of the Prophets) has its fulfillment in the future. A Futurist reads John in the Revelation talking about the Beast and sees the Beast as a future Antichrist (as opposed to Nero or Domitian (which would be more Preterist) or the Papacy (which would be Historicist)), a Futurist would read Jesus' talking about the "abomination that causes desolation" and sees this as referring to the future Antichrist desolating a rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem.

A Historicist sees these things as having been fulfilled throughout the last two thousand years at different times, such as the early Protestants seeing the Papacy as fulfilling the role of "Man of Sin" from Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians and the Beast from Revelation 13. Seventh Day Adventists are Historicists, perhaps even moreso than the historic Protestant churches (Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc).

A Preterist would see these things as having happened in the past, for example a Preterist would probably see Jesus mentioning the "abomination that causes desolation" and see its fulfillment when the Romans desolated the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD, a Preterist would understand the Revelation's "Beast" to likely be a reference to Nero and/or Domitian and/or the imperial power in Rome in general. This is the position I take on these things.

It's also worthwhile to point out that there's a fourth position called Idealism, which interprets the Revelation not as being about events in the late first century (Preterism), a prophetic account of history (Historicism) or a prophecy concerning the end of time (Futurism) but as being a purely spiritual text dealing with the spiritual struggle of Christians in the world as we await the return of Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

LittleLambofJesus said:

Both Preterism and Amillism make more biblecal sense than futurism.
Let's face it, all of the prophecies in the OT and NT was indeed FUTURE for them and that is not refuted.......

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Matthew 23:35
that upon ye may come all the righteous blood being poured out on the land,
from the blood of Abel the righteous, unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar: [Luke 11:51]

Revelation 16:6
because blood of saints and prophets they did pour out,
and blood to them Thou didst give to drink, for they are worthy;'

Mat 24:34
Amen I am saying to ye not no may be passing away this generation
until ALL these may be becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638).

Reve 16:17
and the seventh Messenger pours out the bowl of him into the air and came out great Voice from the Sanctuary of the heaven from the throne saying "it hath become"/gegonen <1096> (5754).
[Reve 21:6]
Revelation 21:6
and He said to me "it hath become!/gegonen <1096> (5754)!
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End;

THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source! That’s, IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation. That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited.
How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!


.

Click to expand...

claninja said:

Agree, But this is not profound mystery.

Click to expand...

Hi Claninja,

I think you misread what I said - Then the Apostle Paul reveals that we, the Body of Christ, the church, the called out ones, the Ekklesia, (Eph.1: 23) are members of Christ`s own body. That is the profound mystery that was not revealed before. That is the truth that Paul was revealing, by the Holy Spirit throughout the letter to the Ephesians.

The Apostle Paul says, by the Holy Spirit at the beginning of his letter to the Ephesians, what the mystery was - that we are members of Christ`s body, (Gentiles and Jews).

`How that by revelation he made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), ....that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body,....` (Eph.3: 3, 4 & 6)

Then further on the Apostle Paul reveals it again.

`...just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of his flesh and His bones….This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.` (Eph. 5: 29 & 30)

`And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, which is His body.`(Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

Clearly the mystery is that the church, (ekklesia)the called out ones, are Christ`s body.

Marilyn.

claninja said:

Is a wife the bride of a husband?

Click to expand...

Hi claninja,

Actually a bride is a woman before she is married, and a wife is a woman after she is married.

Now there is a wife who although divorced became a bride again.

`Let us rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.` (Rev. 19: 7)

So who is this wife that has been divorced and will again marry the bridegroom.

`Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce;...` (Jer. 3: 8)

`For you will forget the shame of your youth, and will not remember the reproach of your widowhood any more, for your Maker is your husband, and the Lord of hosts is His name; and your redeemer is the Holy One of Israel: He is called the God of the whole earth.` (Isa. 54: 4 & 5)

`I will betroth you to me for ever; Yes, I will betroth you to me in righteousness and justice, in loving-kindness and mercy; I will betroth you to me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 2: 19 & 20)

What absolutely tender words the Lord God says to Israel.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

Marilyn C said:

I think you misread what I said - Then the Apostle Paul reveals that we, the Body of Christ, the church, the called out ones, the Ekklesia, (Eph.1: 23) are members of Christ`s own body. That is the profound mystery that was not revealed before. That is the truth that Paul was revealing, by the Holy Spirit throughout the letter to the Ephesians.

Click to expand...

There are many mysteries of the gospel that the Holy Spirit revealed through Paul. Each time the revealed mystery relates to the surrounding context, for example:

Mystery revealed: gentiles are fellow members of the body and fellow partakers in the promise
Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.

Mystery revealed: the church is to reveal the wisdom of God to rulers and authorities.
Ephesians 3:9-10 and to illuminate for everyone the stewardship of this mystery, which for ages past was hidden in God, who created all things. His purpose was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms

Mystery revealed: Israel was hardened for the salvation of the gentiles.
Romans 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:d a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Mystery revealed: the riches, which is Christ in you, is made knows among the gentiles.
Colossians 1:26-27 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

Mystery revealed: the gospel
Ephesians 6:18-19 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel

Mystery revealed: the resurrection
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Mystery revealed: godliness through Christ appearing in the flesh
1 Timothy 3:16 By common confession, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,c was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, was taken up in glory.

The context is Ephesians 5 is marriage, so let's stick with Ephesians 5.

Marilyn C said:

The Apostle Paul says, by the Holy Spirit at the beginning of his letter to the Ephesians, what the mystery was - that we are members of Christ`s body, (Gentiles and Jews).

`How that by revelation he made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), ....that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body,....` (Eph.3: 3, 4 & 6)

Click to expand...

The Mystery revealed in Ephesians 3 is not that the Jews were a part of the body of Christ, but that the gentiles were fellow partakers in the body of Christ through the gospel.

Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.

Marilyn C said:

Then further on the Apostle Paul reveals it again.

Click to expand...

Marriage is the context of Paul's discussion in Ephesians 5. Paul reveals that as man is the head of his wife so to is Christ the head of the church. He even goes farther to state that man and woman becoming 1 flesh is a profound mystery that refers to Christ and the Church.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

Ephesians 5:29-32 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

This is one of the revealed mysteries of the Bible, why did God give us marriage? The immediate context (type) was for companionship and procreation

Genesis 2:18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth

The ultimate fulfillment (antitype) in the true spiritual reality: Christ and the church

Ephesians 5:31-32 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church

Marilyn C said:

Clearly the mystery is that the church, (ekklesia)the called out ones, are Christ`s body.

Click to expand...

And Paul reveals that man and woman becoming 1 flesh refers to the Christ and his Church

Ephesians 5:29-32 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

Paul also compares the church as pure virgin betrothed to Christ. Another example of the church being referred to as the bride.

2 Corinthians 2:11 I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ

Hi Marilyn,

Marilyn C said:

Hi claninja,

Actually a bride is a woman before she is married, and a wife is a woman after she is married.

Click to expand...

This doesn't answer my question. you seem to be side stepping. This is a simple yes or no answer, so i'll ask again:

Is the wife the bride of the husband?

Marilyn C said:

So who is this wife that has been divorced and will again marry the bridegroom.

`Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce;...` (Jer. 3: 8)

`For you will forget the shame of your youth, and will not remember the reproach of your widowhood any more, for your Maker is your husband, and the Lord of hosts is His name; and your redeemer is the Holy One of Israel: He is called the God of the whole earth.` (Isa. 54: 4 & 5)

`I will betroth you to me for ever; Yes, I will betroth you to me in righteousness and justice, in loving-kindness and mercy; I will betroth you to me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 2: 19 & 20)

Click to expand...

This seems to change the topic a little, we weren't discussion divorce. So I'll ask my questions again, simply yes or no will suffice:

Do you agree, the husband is the head of the wife, just Christ is the head of the Church?

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body

Do you agree the wife is the body of the husband, just as the church is body of Christ?

Ephesians 5:28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church.

Do you agree that the wife and husband are one flesh?

Ephesians 5:31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”