Is a 3rd future Temple needed to fulfill Bible prophecy?

Is a future Temple in Jerusalem needed to fulfill Bible prophecy?


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Marilyn C

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Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(The verse above is past tense. It happened about 2,000 years ago. See Psalm 2.)


2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

The 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:15-18 prove this fact.

.

Hi BABerean,

Yes Satan and his demons are in darkness, that is why there is darkness over the earth, spiritually, and later in the trib, when they are cast to the earth there will be great physical darkness.

The `chains` are a picture of them being kept within God`s limits.

Marilyn.
 
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mkgal1

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the mediator of the new covenant, (to Israel)
Are you suggesting the New Covenant is ONLY for a certain group - and NOT all who believe in Jesus? IOW - are you and I excluded from the new covenant (I'm assuming you're not a biological descendant from the one of the tribes of Israel)? Otherwise - why would you make that parenthetical distinction?
We see differently on that.
Agreed. I never see a division of the People of God. We are one olive tree (Romans 11:17).
The Body of Christ`s purpose is not in the trib, but just the Lord dealing with Israel and the nations.
I may need for you to expand on that. What do you mean by this?

Hi BABerean,

Yes Satan and his demons are in darkness, that is why there is darkness over the earth, spiritually, and later in the trib, when they are cast to the earth there will be great physical darkness.

The `chains` are a picture of them being kept within God`s limits.

Marilyn.
Hi Marilyn ~

You completely neglected to address what you quoted BABerean as saying....which was:

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(The verse above is past tense. It happened about 2,000 years ago. See Psalm 2.)
This is NOT a future prophecy. Your responses are oddly disconnected from the Scripture that's being presented. There's nothing about darkness and chains in that passage...??? I get this impression that you're running this whole other narrative on top of Scripture (and not even reading the words of the original text).

ETA: Ah.....you're responding as if 2Peter 2:4 was brought up (it hasn't been).​
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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="mkgal1, post: 73689133, member: 193242"
Hi Marilyn ~

You completely neglected to address what you quoted BABerean as saying....which was:
BABerean2 said:
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(The verse above is past tense. It happened about 2,000 years ago. See Psalm 2.)

This is NOT a future prophecy. Your responses are oddly disconnected from the Scripture that's being presented. There's nothing about darkness and chains in that passage...???​
Hello mkagal.

Yes you and BAB are right concerning that as a past prophecy.

However "ruling" is a rather bad translation. The correct usage is "shepherding/feeding" as if a flock.
This was indeed fulfilled......all in the 1st century

Matthew 1:21
and she shall bring forth a Son, and thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.’
Matthew 2:6
And thou Bethlehem, land of Judah, not being inferior-most are in the ones-leading of Judea. For out of thee shall be going-forth one-leading, who-any shall be shepherding/poimanei <4165> (5692) the People of Me, the Israel.
Luke 2:7
and she brought forth her Son — the first-born, and wrapped Him up, and laid Him down in the manger, because there was not for them a place in the guest-chamber.

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth<5088> a Son, a male,
Who is about to be shepherding<4165> all the nations in iron rod/staff.
Reve 2:27
And He shall be sherpherding/poimanei <4165> (5692) them in rod iron, as the instruments, the pottery, is being crushed, as and-I have gotten beside the Father of Me.

===========================================
Reve 7:17
That the Lamb-kin in midst of the throne shall be shepherding/poimanei <4165> (5692) them and shall be way leading them upon life springs of waters and shall be out-rubbing, the God, every tear out of the eyes of them.

<<<<gap of time preaching till Passover, crucifixion,resurrection and ascension>>>>

Revelation 12:5
and caught away was her Child unto God and His throne,

Acts 1
9 And these things having said — they beholding —
He was taken up, and a cloud did receive Him up from their sight;
10 and as they were looking steadfastly to the heaven in His going on, then behold! two Men stood by them in white apparel,

As we all know, Revelation is not quite in order. Luke is the only one that uses the singular "cloud" in Luke 21 and most everyone agree that this was fulfilled in 70ad.

Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;

Revelation 14:
14 Then I looked, and behold! a white cloud,
and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown,
and in His hand a sharp sickle.

I believe these are the first-fruits of the 1st century Jewish Christians sealed by God and "raptured" before the bowls of wrath are poured out on 70ad Jerusalem:

Revelation 11:12

And they hear a great voice out of the heaven saying to them, “ascend<305> ye here!”
And they ascended<305> into the heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.

Below are some threads I have concerning Luke and "the cloud"

Why does Luke 21:27 use the singular "cloud" instead of "clouds"?

Question about the High Priest seeing Jesus coming on clouds of heaven

Book - Sealed with 7 Seals
Cloud Clouds Messengers Daniel
 
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Marilyn C

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Are you suggesting the New Covenant is ONLY for a certain group - and NOT all who believe in Jesus? IOW - are you and I excluded from the new covenant (I'm assuming you're not a biological descendant from the one of the tribes of Israel)? Otherwise - why would you make that parenthetical distinction?

Agreed. I never see a division of the People of God. We are one olive tree (Romans 11:17).

I may need for you to expand on that. What do you mean by this?


Hi Marilyn ~

You completely neglected to address what you quoted BABerean as saying....which was:


This is NOT a future prophecy. Your responses are oddly disconnected from the Scripture that's being presented. There's nothing about darkness and chains in that passage...??? I get this impression that you're running this whole other narrative on top of Scripture (and not even reading the words of the original text).​

Hi mygal,

The New Covenant is for all who turn to God, however because we are in time, then the outworking of that is overtime. Israel has not yet experienced the new covenant in Christ, but will after the trib.

We are NOT the Olive tree, as it is holy and by it we receive nourishment. That is from the Lord.

`...the root is holy....with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree.` (Rom. 16 & 17)

God`s purposes in Christ is to do with restoring rightful rulership in every realm. We, the Body of Christ will be with the Lord on His own throne in the third heaven where we will judge the world system and fallen angels. (Rev. 3: 21, 1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

Yes the scripture is of the past, it is the Biblical description of the victor, (Christ) over the enemy, Satan.

Marilyn.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Hi mygal,

The New Covenant is for all who turn to God, however because we are in time, then the outworking of that is overtime. Israel has not yet experienced the new covenant in Christ, but will after the trib.

We are NOT the Olive tree, as it is holy and by it we receive nourishment. That is from the Lord.

`...the root is holy....with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree.` (Rom. 16 & 17)

God`s purposes in Christ is to do with restoring rightful rulership in every realm. We, the Body of Christ will be with the Lord on His own throne in the third heaven where we will judge the world system and fallen angels. (Rev. 3: 21, 1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

Yes the scripture is of the past, it is the Biblical description of the victor, (Christ) over the enemy, Satan.

Marilyn.
Hi M C.
That is the view of Christian Zionist Dispensationalism......

Is "Christian Zionism" Biblical ?
What I meant was that Paul sees the Jews as not having any remaining unfulfilled promises to them still on the table. In the text you refer to from Romans 11, Paul is simply saying that God can even use Jewish jealousy of what God has done for Gentiles to draw Jews into Jesus' worldwide family.

While there are some challenging texts to deal with, I think the overall picture is fairly clear: Paul sees Jesus as completing the Israel project - He (Jesus) takes on Israel's covenant obligations and fulfills them.
 
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Marilyn C

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The Greek word for reign is present tense in this verse. Jesus was presently reigning when Paul wrote Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Jesus, when revelation was written, was already ruler of the kings of the earth while in heaven.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.



Christ is a priest after the order of Melchizedek forever

Hebrews 7:1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High.
Hebrews 6:20 where Jesus our forerunner has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever in the order of Melchizedek

David prophesied of THE RESURRECTION when he knew that God would set a descendent on his throne.

Acts 2:30-31 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay

Thus, the resurrection and ascension of Christ to heaven fulfilled there never lacking a man to sit on the throne of Dave and never lacking a priest to be before God.

Jeremiah 33:17-18 For this is what the LORD says: David will never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, nor will the priests who are Levites ever fail to have a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings, and to present sacrifices.”



You do realize your creating a logical contradiction with your belief, right?

As soon as you put that Christ only "reigns" AFTER his enemies have been made a footstool, you create a logical contradiction.

Acts 2:34-35 For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’

1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Simply put, Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, as King of kings, reigning until his enemies have been make a footstool.

You have yet to address the logical contradiction you are creating.




Jesus, who has all authority in heaven and on earth, who is King of the ages, even as you agree, is not currently reigning? I disagree. I also disagree that Jesus is still in his fleshly, earthly body in the heavens.

Jesus was promised that his flesh would never see decay. Thus when Jesus rose from the dead, he rose in his same flesh after 3 days.

Acts 2:27 because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.

Unlike Jesus, believers are never promised that our current flesh will never see decay. Thus, Paul clearly states that our resurrection is from natural body to spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

So is Jesus still in the flesh in Heaven or was He glorified? I would argue he is no longer in the flesh, but glorified, because of what John says. Notice, John states what will be like (which I would argue is in the resurrection) has NOT yet been revealed. But when Christ appears we will be like him and see him as HE IS. The "he is" is present tense.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

Revelation 1:12-16 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was One like the Son of Man, dressed in a long robe, with a golden sash around His chest.The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters. He held in His right hand seven stars, and a sharp double-edged sword came from His mouth. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest



The scriptures and rules of grammar disagree with you. "reign" in this verse is present tense.

1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.



Correct, we see that the greek word for reign in this verse you posted is aorist indicative active. In other words its a past action.



I agree with the exception of the millennium. I believe Jesus to be ruling NOW and ever since his resurrection and ascension to the "3rd heaven".


Hi Claninja,

I appreciate your detailed reply.

`But each in his own order. Christ the first-fruits, afterwards those who are Christ`s at His coming, then comes the `telos` when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority, for He must reign till he has put all enemies under His feet.` (` Cor. 15: 23 - 25)

Telos - Gk. word meaning, to set out for a definite point or goal.

Thus we see that Christ will rule after He has come for the Body of Christ. The `present tense` relates to the time period mentioned - after receiving His own.

1.Christ, the first-fruits

2.Those who are His at His coming.

3.Then the setting out to put all rule and authority under His feet.



Yes Jesus has many titles, King of Glory, King of Heaven, King of the Ages, King of Israel, King of Judah, King of the kings of the earth, King of kings. It does not mean that He is operating as King in all those at the moment.

There is a difference between the Father making the Lord`s enemies His footstool, (ready for judgment) and when the Lord Himself puts down those rebellious authorities and powers.

The Lord is in His glorified body, which is a spiritual body, (but not a spirit floating around). Looks like we both agree there.

`There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.....and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are heavenly.....we shall also bear the image of the heavenly man.` (1 Cor. 15: 44, 47 & 49)

So you believe the Lord is ruling now. So what evidence have you that He is at the moment putting down all rule and authority?

Marilyn.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Hi Claninja,

`But each in his own order. Christ the first-fruits, afterwards those who are Christ`s at His coming, then comes the `telos` when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority, for He must reign till he has put all enemies under His feet.` (` Cor. 15: 23 - 25)

Telos - Gk. word meaning, to set out for a definite point or goal.
Marilyn.
Hi M C

Let's look at "telos":

5055. teleo tel-eh'-o from 5056;
to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):--accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.
5056. telos tel'-os from a primary tello
(to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely),


Jesus mentions both His "parousia" AND the full consummation/end<5055> of the age

Matthew 24:
3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be
and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
and of the full-end/sun-teleiaV <5055> of the Age?'

Most Bible scholars and yes, even futurists admit that at least most of Luke 21 is 70ad, [so not sure why they view Matt 24 as a different event and still future]?

All 3 Gospels have battles/wars and rumors of wars/battles.
The Jewish wars/rebellion began in 62/63 AD and lasted until 73AD [Masada]:

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Church Historian Suggests James' Death the "Final Straw" Which Broke the Yoke

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matthew 24:6

Matthew 24
:
6 “And ye will hear of battle and rumors of battles. See that ye are not troubled;
for all these things must come to pass, but the end<5056> is not yet.
Mark 13:
7 “But when ye hear of battles and rumors of battles, do not be troubled;
for such things must happen, but the end<5056> is not yet.
Luke 21:9 -
“Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and tumults, do not be being terrified;
for it is binding these things to be becoming, but the end<5056> is not immediately

Here Paul has both Parousia and the End:

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 and each in their proper order,
a first-fruit Christ ,
afterwards those who are the Christ’s in His parousia<3952>,
24 then — the end<5055>,
when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power

Rev 15:1
And I saw another sign in the heaven, great and wonderful, seven Messengers having the seven last plagues,
because in these is ended<5055> the fury of God,

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ;
the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived............................
.........................
 
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mkgal1

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The New Covenant is for all who turn to God, however because we are in time, then the outworking of that is overtime.
Does that actually makes sense to you?

Israel has not yet experienced the new covenant in Christ, but will after the trib.
Who were Peter, Paul, Andrew, James, Mary,
John (to name a few)? They were Israelites - along with the many believers at Pentecost.
 
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Marilyn C

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Does that actually makes sense to you?


Who were Peter, Paul, Andrew, James, Mary,
John (to name a few)? They were Israelites - along with the many believers at Pentecost.

Hi mkgal,

Yes, they were Israelites, but they are not the nation of Israel, that has yet to fully receive the blessings under the new Covenant.

Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi M C

Let's look at "telos":

5055. teleo tel-eh'-o from 5056;
to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):--accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.
5056. telos tel'-os from a primary tello
(to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely),


Jesus mentions both His "parousia" AND the full consummation/end<5055> of the age

Matthew 24:
3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be
and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
and of the full-end/sun-teleiaV <5055> of the Age?'

Most Bible scholars and yes, even futurists admit that at least most of Luke 21 is 70ad, [so not sure why they view Matt 24 as a different event and still future]?

All 3 Gospels have battles/wars and rumors of wars/battles.
The Jewish wars/rebellion began in 62/63 AD and lasted until 73AD [Masada]:

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Church Historian Suggests James' Death the "Final Straw" Which Broke the Yoke

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matthew 24:6

Matthew 24
:
6 “And ye will hear of battle and rumors of battles. See that ye are not troubled;
for all these things must come to pass, but the end<5056> is not yet.
Mark 13:
7 “But when ye hear of battles and rumors of battles, do not be troubled;
for such things must happen, but the end<5056> is not yet.
Luke 21:9 -
“Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and tumults, do not be being terrified;
for it is binding these things to be becoming, but the end<5056> is not immediately

Here Paul has both Parousia and the End:

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 and each in their proper order,
a first-fruit Christ ,
afterwards those who are the Christ’s in His parousia<3952>,
24 then — the end<5055>,
when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power

Rev 15:1
And I saw another sign in the heaven, great and wonderful, seven Messengers having the seven last plagues,
because in these is ended<5055> the fury of God,

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ;
the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived............................
.........................

Hi mkgal,

And so where do you see the evidence of the Lord bringing all rule and all authority under His feet? (1 Cor. 15: 24)

Marilyn.
 
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mkgal1

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Hi mkgal,

Yes, they were Israelites, but they are not the nation of Israel, that has yet to fully receive the blessings under the new Covenant.

Marilyn.
They were closer to the genetic lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob than anyone currently on Earth will ever be. We have Mary's family tree recorded in the Bible.

th




The modern--day Israel is just a place named by human leaders.
 
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mkgal1

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Hi mkgal,

And so where do you see the evidence of the Lord bringing all rule and all authority under His feet? (1 Cor. 15: 24)

Marilyn.
Hi Marilyn :wave:

That post was from LLofJ.
 
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Marilyn C

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They were closer to the genetic lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob than anyone currently on Earth will ever be. We have Mary's family tree recorded in the Bible.

th




The modern--day Israel is just a place named by human leaders.

Hi mkgal,

God did say that He would bring them again to their land, (3rd time.) And who but God has protected them from the antagonistic nations around them. Think of the 6 day war, when the enemies outnumbered the Israelis, and had better arms etc. Yet Israel won that war in 6 days. A mighty miracle of God.

Marilyn.
 
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jgr

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Hi mkgal,

God did say that He would bring them again to their land, (3rd time.) And who but God has protected them from the antagonistic nations around them. Think of the 6 day war, when the enemies outnumbered the Israelis, and had better arms etc. Yet Israel won that war in 6 days. A mighty miracle of God.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

How does God decide who "them" are?

What are the distinguishing characteristics that He looks for?

1. Jewish DNA
2. Jewish religion
3. Jewish culture
4. Faith and obedience in and to His Son

?
 
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mkgal1

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Hi mkgal,

Yes, they were Israelites, but they are not the nation of Israel, that has yet to fully receive the blessings under the new Covenant.

Marilyn.
I'm looking forward to your answer to JGR's question about how you believe God decides who *does* belong within the nation of Israel.

The geopolitical nation of Israel we have now, however, didn't become a nation until 1948. What does that mean for most of the New Testament and Peter and Paul's teaching? This causes so many questions to come up in my mind. Why was Peter (a faithful Jew) preaching to the people of Israel (Jews) and why was the spirit that was promised to them given? How is that NOT "Israel fully receiving the blessing under the New Covenant"?

From Acts 2: The Holy Spirit Comes

1On the day of Pentecosta all the believers were meeting together in one place. 2Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting.3Then, what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them. 4And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages,b as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.

5At that time there were devout Jews from every nation living in Jerusalem. 6When they heard the loud noise, everyone came running, and they were bewildered to hear their own languages being spoken by the believers.

7They were completely amazed. “How can this be?” they exclaimed. “These people are all from Galilee,8and yet we hear them speaking in our own native languages! 9Here we are—Parthians, Medes, Elamites, people from Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, the province of Asia, 10Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, and the areas of Libya around Cyrene, visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism), Cretans, and Arabs. And we all hear these people speaking in our own languages about the wonderful things God has done!” 12They stood there amazed and perplexed. “What can this mean?” they asked each other.

13But others in the crowd ridiculed them, saying, “They’re just drunk, that’s all!”

Peter Preaches to the Crowd

14Then Peter stepped forward with the eleven other apostles and shouted to the crowd, “Listen carefully, all of you,
fellow Jews and residents of Jerusalem! Make no mistake about this. 15These people are not drunk, as some of you are assuming. Nine o’clock in the morning is much too early for that. 16No, what you see was predicted long ago by the prophet Joel:

17
In the last days,’ God says,

I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy.

Your young men will see visions,

and your old men will dream dreams.

18I
n those days I will pour out my Spirit

even on my servants—men and women alike—

and they will prophesy.

19And I will cause wonders in the heavens above

and signs on the earth below—

blood and fire and clouds of smoke.

20The sun will become dark,

and the moon will turn blood red

before that great and glorious day of the LORD arrives.

21But
everyone who calls on the name of the LORD

will be saved
.’c

22
People of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus the Nazarened by doing powerful miracles, wonders, and signs through him, as you well know. 23But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him. 24But God released him from the horrors of death and raised him back to life, for death could not keep him in its grip. 25King David said this about him:

‘I see that the LORD is always with me.

I will not be shaken, for he is right beside me.

26No wonder my heart is glad,

and my tongue shouts his praises!

My body rests in hope.

27For you will not leave my soul among the dead e

or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.

28You have shown me the way of life,

and
you will fill me with the joy of your presence.’f

29Dear brothers, think about this! You can be sure that the patriarch David wasn’t referring to himself, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us. 30But he was a prophet, and he knew God had promised with an oath that one of David’s own descendants would sit on his throne. 31David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead or allow his body to rot in the grave.

32
God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this. 33Now he is exalted to the place of highest honor in heaven, at God’s right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today. 34For David himself never ascended into heaven, yet he said,

‘The LORD said to my Lord,

“Sit in the place of honor at my right hand

35until I humble your enemies,

making them a footstool under your feet.”’g

36“So
let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!”

37Peter’s words pierced their hearts, and they said to him and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?”

38Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise is to you, and to your children, and even to the Gentilesh—all who have been called by the Lord our God.” 40Then Peter continued preaching for a long time, strongly urging all his listeners, “Save yourselves
from this crooked generation!”

41Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church that day—about 3,000 in all.
 
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claninja

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Hi Marilyn,

Telos - Gk. word meaning, to set out for a definite point or goal.

Thus we see that Christ will rule after He has come for the Body of Christ. The `present tense` relates to the time period mentioned - after receiving His own.

1.Christ, the first-fruits

2.Those who are His at His coming.

3.Then the setting out to put all rule and authority under His feet.

I disagree with your interpretation of the order because it creates a logical contradiction with another scripture.

Acts 2:34-35 The Lord said to my Lord,“ Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Additionally, Christ was the first fruits from the dead, then when he comes the resurrection occurs. Then the end comes when he hands over (present tense) the kingdom to the father, when he has destroyed (past tense) all rule, authority, and power.

So that means the end comes at the time He hands the kingdom over to the Father, AFTER destroying all rule, authority, and power.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father when he has destroyed all rule and all authority and power.

So where does this place verse 25? You appear to argue "after he comes". It seems you are arguing that AFTER Jesus comes, He begins to reign UNTIL all he his enemies are put under his feet, then the end comes.

1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

However, this in turn creates another logical contradiction because of the "last enemy". Paul states the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death

Paul clearly teaches the resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

Paul also clearly teaches that the resurrection occurs when death is defeated.

1 Corinthians 15:54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.

Therefore, the final enemy (death) is destroyed at the coming of Christ when the dead are raised.

Here is what your argument seemingly creates:

1.) Christ rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, but not to reign.
2.) Christ comes and the resurrection occurs because death is defeated
3.) Christ begins to reign
4.) The last enemy of Christ's reign is death (so it wasn't defeated at his coming?)
5.) End comes when all enemies have been defeated, the last one being death.

how can the resurrection occur at his coming if death is not defeated yet?

Here is my argument:

1.) Christ rose and ascended to heaven to reign until his enemies are defeated
2.) Christ comes at the last enemy's (death) defeat, this results in the resurrection
3.) Then when death is defeated Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father.


Yes Jesus has many titles, King of Glory, King of Heaven, King of the Ages, King of Israel, King of Judah, King of the kings of the earth, King of kings.

Amen, I agree to that Marilyn

It does not mean that He is operating as King in all those at the moment.

I absolutely disagree. the gospel is actively at work through the power of Christ, the King of kings.

Hebrews 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Jesus is operating as King, he is the one who sows good seed. If Jesus is not operating as king yet, he has not yet sown the good seed.

Matthew 13:24 Jesus presented another parable to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Matthew 13:37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man

Jesus is operating as king, he is the one who planted the mustard seed in his field, which resulted in a large garden plant. Has the gospel spread across the globe, or is it still only located in Jerusalem?

Matthew 13:31-32 Jesus put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that a man planted in his field. Although it is the smallest of all seeds, yet it grows into the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”

Jesus is operating as king, he is the one who went out early to hire workers. If Jesus isn't operating as king yet, then he hasn't hired anyone.

Matthew 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.

Jesus is operating as king, because our sins have been forgiven. If Jesus is not operating as king, our accounts have not yet been settled.

Matthew 18:23 Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants

There is a difference between the Father making the Lord`s enemies His footstool, (ready for judgment) and when the Lord Himself puts down those rebellious authorities and powers.

I'm not really following you here.

The Lord is in His glorified body, which is a spiritual body, (but not a spirit floating around). Looks like we both agree there.

`There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.....and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are heavenly.....we shall also bear the image of the heavenly man.` (1 Cor. 15: 44, 47 & 49)

Absolutely agree.

So you believe the Lord is ruling now.

Yes

So what evidence have you that He is at the moment putting down all rule and authority?

Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome are no longer world powers

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

The gospel is all over the world.

Daniel 2:35 But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

Jesus now has all authority over heaven and earth.

matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

 
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mkgal1

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Hello mkgal.

Yes you and BAB are right concerning that as a past prophecy.

However "ruling" is a rather bad translation. The correct usage is "shepherding/feeding" as if a flock.
This was indeed fulfilled......all in the 1st century
Thanks, LLoJ. That makes a lot more sense since not all "heard His voice" and followed. I just got the GO Study Bible this morning, and in looking up Rev 12:5 it states:

Quoting the Greek Orthodox Study Bible ---->

12:5 ~True Israel brings forth Christ, who after completion of His saving work, ascends to heaven (Ps 2:7-9; 46:6)

12:6 ~ The flight of the woman may refer to the flight of the Jerusalem church (embodying true Israel) to Pella before the outbreak of the Roman war. END

It makes sense that the correct usage here is "shepherding/feeding".....not "ruling".
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi Marilyn,

I disagree with your interpretation of the order because it creates a logical contradiction with another scripture.

Acts 2:34-35 The Lord said to my Lord,“ Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Additionally, Christ was the first fruits from the dead, then when he comes the resurrection occurs. Then the end comes when he hands over (present tense) the kingdom to the father, when he has destroyed (past tense) all rule, authority, and power.

So that means the end comes at the time He hands the kingdom over to the Father, AFTER destroying all rule, authority, and power.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father when he has destroyed all rule and all authority and power.

So where does this place verse 25? You appear to argue "after he comes". It seems you are arguing that AFTER Jesus comes, He begins to reign UNTIL all he his enemies are put under his feet, then the end comes.

1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

However, this in turn creates another logical contradiction because of the "last enemy". Paul states the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death

Paul clearly teaches the resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

Paul also clearly teaches that the resurrection occurs when death is defeated.

1 Corinthians 15:54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.

Therefore, the final enemy (death) is destroyed at the coming of Christ when the dead are raised.

Here is what your argument seemingly creates:

1.) Christ rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, but not to reign.
2.) Christ comes and the resurrection occurs because death is defeated
3.) Christ begins to reign
4.) The last enemy of Christ's reign is death (so it wasn't defeated at his coming?)
5.) End comes when all enemies have been defeated, the last one being death.

how can the resurrection occur at his coming if death is not defeated yet?

Here is my argument:

1.) Christ rose and ascended to heaven to reign until his enemies are defeated
2.) Christ comes at the last enemy's (death) defeat, this results in the resurrection
3.) Then when death is defeated Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father.

Hi claninja,

Here is my summary.

1. Christ rose from the dead and is interceding while the Father brings all enemies to Christ`s feet for judgment.
2. Christ comes for His Body and takes the to His own throne where they rule & reign. Christ begins to put down all rule and authority.
3. After the millennium then death will be destroyed.

Seems to me that you don`t think there will be a millennium? or that death will not be part of it?

trying to understand what you believe. Marilyn.
 
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