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If you read the political threads you would be led to believe “Total Depravity” is synonymous with “Trump.”
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Calvinism - Total Depravity Question
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shagsnacks
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Which is why I take issue with your statement "ONCE a person receives grace then he is declared righteous". He is declared righteous beforehand.
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shagsnacks
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Which is why I take issue with her statement "ONCE a person receives grace then he is declared righteous". He is declared righteous beforehand.
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- Dec 20, 2009
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I find looking at the context of the soul in scripture is helpful in understanding the conflict that exists between the animal nature of the body we inhabit as revived or quickened spirits when we are born again.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
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I agree that not claiming that one can do what they like after receiving Christ is what the Bible teaches. I would go further that if one claims that they can do what they like, including continuing in sin, this indicates that although one has religion, he is not genuinely converted to Christ. This is because a true convert's main desire and passion is to battle against sin and follow the commands of Christ.
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So, as a genuinely converted believer, the last thing that you would want to do is to go back into a willful sinful life, habitually and deliberately practice the works of the flesh as listed in Galatians 5. I maintain that this the passion of every truly converted believer. I think that many underestimate the total and powerful transformation that conversion does within the heart of a person.
I continue to maintain that by appearance there is very little difference between a genuinely converted believer and a religious hypocrite. Their outward religious observance are exactly the same. They both attend church regularly, rise to leadership positions, work tireless to get new members for their church, live very moral lives, know the Bible from end to end, and can talk Christian talk with the best of them. The difference lies in their hearts, which only God can see.
The parable of the prodigal son is a story to emphasise that no matter how reprehensible a person's sinfulness is, when they return and repent, the Father's arms are open wide to receive them. It is very risky to form a doctrine of true believers walking away from Christ and then being restored from a parable spoken by Jesus to unconverted Jews.
I say again, genuine conversion is a total transformation of the heart, worked by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit within a person who sincerely and honestly comes through the narrow gate of full and exclusive confidence in the death and resurrection of Christ to save them.
To say that a person can just choose to follow Christ, and then walk away if he feels like it, is a gross misunderstanding of what conversion to Christ actually is, and is a grievous insult to the Holy Spirit who causes it to happen.
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The "they never were saved to begin with" thing works great for some of you, it never did and never will for me.
People get saved all the time and fall back into sin. To say they were never saved to begin with is something you cannot prove.
James 5:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Please explain how that doesn't go against you're very popular, learned from man..."they never were saved to begin with"
I keep telling people to read their bibles and double check what you're being taught...but
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There is a difference between professing the Christian religion and having Christ. The former forms a very broad gate which many go through to try and ease their consciences, but find that all they have is the Christian religion and self-righteousness, which leads them to destruction.
But those who go through the narrow gate of:
"I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all,
But Jesus Christ is my all in all",
Show that their Christian profession is real because it is born of the Holy Spirit and comes from their heart.
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Sure there is a difference, but that changes nothing from what I stated. I'm talking saved people, so we are past all that.
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If you, as a saved person, can freely walk away from Christ, then try it and see what happens. I will guarantee that you will feel like death warmed up through the Holy Spirit getting on your case and making you feel totally horrible and then you will know that walking away from Christ is right against your new heart and nature. Your own heart will scream out against any thought of deserting Christ. The greatest fear that a genuinely converted believer has, is the fear of his own sinfulness and what it can do to him if he let it regain dominance over his life.
Read Foxes Book of Martyrs and see the great lengths genuinely converted believers went to to remain faithful to Christ. They would rather be devoured by lions, crucified, beheaded, burned at the stake, roasted alive, and every other cruel torture and death you can imagine, than turn away or deny Christ even in the smallest way.
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Did you ever comment on the verse I asked you to debunk? That's all the proof I need to back my claim.
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James was a Jewish Christian and still complying with the Mosaic Law. His theology was quite different from Paul's. Even in James's time there were professing Christians who were wandering off into various doctrines. Paul warned that grievous wolves (in sheep's clothing) would invade the church, and even people among their own congregation would rise up and draw people away from the truth.
Of course, we cannot judge any brother or sister concerning whether they are truly converted or not, because we cannot see into their hearts. I do concede that there are true believers who can fall into error, and there are false believers who fall into error also. But we can't tell the difference between the true and false ones. All we can do is to see to our own hearts, examine ourselves regularly through personal prayer and study of the Word to ensure that we are following the narrow path of fellowship and communion with Christ.
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Ok, I'm convinced what I requested isn't going to happen, and that tells me all I need to know.
The whole bible matters, not just the parts that work for us.
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Well, I am Calvinist, and if that is good enough for the Puritans, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, the Moravians, Jonathan Edwards, David Brainerd, Henry Martyn, then it is good enough for me, and I think I am in very good and sound godly company!
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You've jumped behind that one before...they are not God and though they may help you justify what you need to justify, the mention of them means little to me.
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You have every right to believe that of course! Doesn't mean that I have to. I just quoted a few godly men who did much more for Christ than I have ever done or ever could do, and they inspire me as great examples of faith, love for Christ, and a passion for souls that I don't have, but wish I did.
I'm off the bed now to sleep in the assurance of my eternal security in Christ!
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Oldmantook
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Respectfully, your opinion though sincere is unsupported by the scriptures I cited. You have neglected to address the texts I cited. How is it possible for someone to be made alive AGAIN as in the prodigal's example which Jesus himself taught? How is possible to reconcile your belief with Paul's warning to the brethren in Rome that IF they live according to the flesh, they will die? As you know Scripture does not contradict itself so it is necessary for you to reconcile scriptures such as these in order to maintain your doctrine. If you think that the parable to the prodigal is to the Jews, then much of the gospels have no application to us today. If you think a believer cannot lose his salvation, then James 5:19-20 indicates otherwise. A wayward believer who is turned back from wandering will have his soul saved from death. If you take the mark of the beast are you still saved? I assume you are a genuine believer so I cannot use the rationale that so many assume that those who betray Christ were never really believers in the first place. Scripture is replete with warnings against apostatizing. Those warnings are always directed to the believer; never the unbeliever.
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That's a yes.
Christians are saints when measured against a covenant we are subject to. Christians can be sinners when measured against the law in an older covenant.
In an absolute sense when measured against God's absolute set of law, no humans can stand righteous. They are all sinners in this case.
The concepts here are,
Covenants only apply to humans but not angels. A covenant serves the purpose of identifying the righteous from the wicked. So under each and every covenant, there will be the righteous and wicked. A new covenant is needed at the point that the older covenant can no longer serve its purpose of identifying the righteous as we all sin, righteous and wicked alike, under the older covenant.
Christians are new persons under the New Covenant. We are the saints being purified by the blood of Jesus Christ. We are however sinners under the older covenant of which we subjected to after our birth but before we chose the New Covenant.
God's absolute set of Law applies to both humans and angels. Total depravity is not necessarily a Cavinist concept. It is a truth in terms of God's absolute set of Law. No humans not even one can be deemed righteous under this set of Law. That's actually why Jesus is a must for the salvation of humans.
Whenever you talk about covenants, they are all about humans. However whenever you talk about Law, it may be something confusing if you failed to grasp the big picture.
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This is why there is a controversy between Calvinism and Arminianism, and the different positions in between. One can produce an equal number of Scriptures as the other to prove their respective positions.
At one extreme one believes that once they are genuinely converted he can never be lost no matter how he lives afterward. At the other extreme, one believes that he can be saved today and lost tomorrow, depending on whether he sins or not in any day. Then there is the person who believes that after being converted, he cannot fall back into sin because he would never want to because of the Holy Spirit within him. And then there is the other one who believes, after a decision for Christ, he is saved only if he continues with Christ but has the choice to walk away if he wants to.
We see all these views on a thread like this, and they are all correct in some way. The problem is when one person pops up and says, "My view is absolutely right, like the church I attend, and all the rest of you and your churches are in error!" (We hear that regularly from Mormons and JWs!)
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