the dispensationalism of Irenaeus

No, that was not what he was saying at all. He was saying they were as useless as chaff, which he said was not even good for burning, because it would not maker a fire hot enough to work gold.

And this is not a change of subject, but a development of what I have been saying, that this sentence is not even abut the judgment of God, but only abut how worthless the wicked nations are. And this is why I have been saying that your entire argument is based upon a flawed premise.

And you have simply ignored the other evidence I presented, that at this point in his scenario, Irenaeus changed his pronouns, from talking about what will happen to "the church" ("we," "us," and "ours") to what will happen to people who are not part of "the church." ("they," "them," "those," and "theirs")

BABerean2 said:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in ..."

I also believe that there will be tribulation on this planet as never seen before when the Church is "caught up", based on , which occur at the Second Coming of Christ.

Your claim above is not found in the text written by Irenaeus.

.

Click to expand...

there will be no contest whatsoever for the righteous at the time of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:10-13.

jgr said:

Irenaeus apparently disagrees:

"Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham; and for this reason, that we may know that He who in the New Testament raises up from the stones children unto Abraham, Matthew 3:9 is He who will gather, according to the Old Testament, those that shall be saved from all the nations, Jeremiah says: Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord lives, who led the children of Israel from the north, and from every region whither they had been driven; He will restore them to their own land which He gave to their fathers. Jeremiah 23:6-8"

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 34)

Click to expand...

Yes, in my book I pointed out that his writings (and those of many of the other early writers) contained what would appear to us as a very strange mixture containing all the essentials of both Covenant Theology and Dispenstionalism. This seems strange to us today, as today these are competing systems of interpretation. But neither of these was systematized into a formal doctrine until well over 1200 years after Irenaeus penned his works.

Just The Facts said:

Hello All

This debate I find quite funny. First there is no doubt that Rapture is post not pre trib. But what I find funny is this belief that every Jew has to be saved. No one considers that Jews have been being saved for almost 2,000 years and I can say with absolute confidence that there are far more Descendants of Judah that are Christian and do not even know about their Jewish heritage than there are Jew in modern Israel. In other words every Jew in Modern Israel could be killed and God would have still saved more Jews than were lost. No Where does it says all Jews are saved. Many are called FEW ARE CHOSEN


carry on

Click to expand...

This is completely off subject, as the subject of this thread is what Irenaeus taught, not what doctrine is correct. But this allegation is clearly erroneous. For we read:

“it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy; everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning.” (Isaiah 4:3-4)

When Israel finally sees their long awaited Messiah, “one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’ (Zechariah 13:6) The result is that “In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.” (Zechariah 12:11-14)

Again, we read, “Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart.” (Jeremiah 24:7) “And so all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26)

But this only means all of them that have survived the coming terrible judgments. For we are first specifically told that "'it shall come to pass in all the land,' Says the LORD, 'That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it: I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, "The LORD is my God." ' " Zechariah 13:8-9

And then after that time, when the Lord brings all Israel back to the land, we read that the Lord "will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord GOD. I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD." Ezekiel 20:34-38

jgr said:

My citation (Book V Chapter 34) comes from the third last chapter of the last book of the voluminous "Against Heresies", after the putative claim that he espoused a rapture.

It is reasonable to presume that it represents Irenaeus' final convictions on the topic.

It is "raptureless".

Note also that Book V Chapter 34 contains the pronoun "we" twice, contradicting your claim regarding Irenaeus' pronoun usage.

Click to expand...

The statement by Irenaeus that you have quoted is speaking of the time after the ressurection, and has zero bearing on the timing of the rapture.

And you really need to do your homework a little more carefully. Both occurrences of the word "we" in chapter 34 are not speaking of the people of that day, but of how we, in the resent day, can know what will happen at that time.

LittleLambofJesus said:

That was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple and it un-holy Priesthood and rulers in 70ad......

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 1:
8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows,
death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
9 And shall be lamenting<2799> over Her and shall be grieving/smiting selves<2875> over Her the kings of the land,
those with Her committing whoredom and indulging
whenever they may b
beholding<991> the smoke of Her firing<4451>.
10 From afar<3113> having stood because of the fear of the tormenting<929> of Her saying
"Woe! woe! the great City Babylon! the strong City!
That to one hour came the judging<2920> of Thee.
18 and they cried<2896>, observing the smoke of Her firing<4451>, saying, "What like to the great City?"
19 and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried<2896>, lamenting<2799>, weeping and mourning<3996>, saying,
"Woe! woe! the great City! in which are rich all those having ships<4143> in the sea, out of Her preciousness<5094>,
for to one hour was She was desolated<2049>.
24 And in Her blood of Prophets and of Saints was found,
and of all those having been slain/slaughtered<4969> on the earth.’

Matthew 23
35 - “that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah,
whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
37 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
38 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>

Luke 13:
34 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
35 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>,

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived

Click to expand...

it is patently ridiculous to even pretend that one-third of them were at that time brought through the fire, and then they called upon the Lord's name, and the Lord said of them, "This is my people," and each one of them answered. "The Lord is my God."

jgr said:

I accept your argument.

But it does not change what is of greatest significance within Chapter 34.

Chapter 34 is raptureless.

What "ressurection" are you referring to?

Click to expand...

Chapter 34 is about who gets resurrected, not when or how.

jgr said:

This is about who, when, and how:

"For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule ..."

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 35)

Who: The just
When: Not pre-trib
How: Resurrection

Click to expand...

Actually, I quoted that very passage in my book, stating that Irenaeus placed the rapture (although he did not call it that, after the rise of the Antichrist, and before he began his three and a half year "reign of terror." That made his stand what would today be called a "mid trib rapture." But as he only foresaw a three and a half year "great tribulation," his timing was pre-trib from his viewpoint.

Just The Facts said:

Hi Bible

Your last posts is the same twisting and taking scripture out of context that permeates this whole doctrine.



Lets look at this Jeremiah first the chapter starts with

[1]After Nebuchadrez'zar king of Babylon had taken into exile from Jerusalem Jeconi'ah the son of Jehoi'akim, king of Judah, together with the princes of Judah, the craftsmen, and the smiths, and had brought them to Babylon, the LORD showed me this vision: Behold, two baskets of figs placed before the temple of the LORD.

This whole chapter and the next is about the 70 years of punishment Not about modern Israel. The good figs are the people the bad figs is

[8]"But thus says the LORD: Like the bad figs which are so bad they cannot be eaten, so will I treat Zedeki'ah the king of Judah, his princes, the remnant of Jerusalem who remain in this land, and those who dwell in the land of Egypt.

He goes on to say

[10] And I will send sword, famine, and pestilence upon them, until they shall be utterly destroyed from the land which I gave to them and their fathers.".................25:3] "For twenty-three years, from the thirteenth year of Josi'ah the son of Amon, king of Judah, to this day, the word of the LORD has come to me, and I have spoken persistently to you, but you have not listened. [4] You have neither listened nor inclined your ears to hear, although the LORD persistently sent to you all his servants the prophets,...................[11] This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

So not about Modern Israel AT ALL YOU ARE TWISTING THIS TO FIT YOU DOCTRINE

Now Romans is about Two Olive Trees the Good Tree and the Wild Tree. It is about what is happening right then and there not thousands oif years later and you just ignore or twist everything that disagrees with your doctrine. Like This

[25]Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,

The Part he is talking about is the Jews. But you refuse to accept what Paul is saying so you just do not get it at all. What is the "Mystery" he is talking about?????????

[26] and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";[27] "and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

It is not a mistake he Uses Israel and Jacob in the same sentence. But you refuse to accept that in scripture there is a difference between Jacob and Judah.

Jacob is the name of the house given to the northern Tribes it is literally Everywhere in the OT.

9:[8] The Lord has sent a word against Jacob,and it will light upon Israel;[9] and all the people will know, E'phraim and the inhabitants of Sama'ria,

Not Judah Not Jerusalem Ephriam another name for the House of Israel Samaria IE THE WILD OLIVE TREE

Look what He says a little later

27:[6] In days to come Jacob shall take root, Israel shall blossom and put forth shoots,and fill the whole world with fruit.

Who fills the world with fruit Christians do............Surly I do not to post the dozens of verse that say so.

How about Ezekiel

[16] "Son of man, take a stick and write on it, `For Judah, and the children of Israel associated with him'; then take another stick and write upon it, `For Joseph (the stick of E'phraim) and all the house of Israel associated with him';

So We have Israel, Jacob and Joseph all used to describe the 10 northern Kingdoms

Or you can just call them Olive Trees

Jeremiah 11: 16 The LORD once called you, 'A green olive tree, fair with goodly fruit'; but with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.


And again in


Hosea14: 5 I will be like the dew to Israel; he shall grow like the lily, and lengthen his roots like Lebanon. 6 His branches shall spread; his beauty shall be like an olive tree, and his fragrance like Lebanon..............[8] O E'phraim, what have I to do with idols?


Lebanon Ephraim IE the House of Joseph / Israel the whole chapter is about the Northern Kingdom IE THE OLIVE TREE ie the wild Olive Tree.............

Your post misuses these verses in a very deliberate way.

Click to expand...

There are more errors in your post that I can address in the time I have but as it is part of an off subject digression that I only temporarily countenanced, I am not even going to address it. Please stay on the subject of what Irenaeus taught, or post in a different thread.