Calvinism - Total Depravity Question

Bruce Leiter

A sinner saved by God's astounding grace and love
Jun 16, 2018
782
551
81
West Michigan
Visit site
✟56,865.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How does total depravity play out in a Christian's life. Is a Christian STILL totally depraved? Does God consider a Christian a sinner or a saint?
When I was in a Reformed seminary, that same question was asked of our two theology professors. One said that we were still totally depraved, but the other one said that we weren't. Total depravity is really pervasive depravity, but that messes up the TULIP! :blush: Anyway, my sense is that pervasive depravity has to do with the presence of sin in our lives after God gives us the new birth. Paul in Romans 6 says that sin no longer enslaves us. In that way, we are no longer pervasively sinful. However, we still have sin within us that we need to fight along with Satan and the tempting world.

Your question assumes that sin is only actions, but it involves our thinking, feeling, and acting. We are still sinners in that sense, while we are saints hating and fighting sins that still remain in us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hazelelponi
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
So if they are righteous, they don't sin anymore? What happens if they sin?
Sinless perfection is never implied, because it is impossible to achieve. If we could, there would have been no need for Jesus to die on the cross for us. Conversion involves an exchange of our sinfulness for Christ's righteousness. In spite of the weakness of our flesh, God sees us as righteous. But this does not mean that we live as we please. One of the fruits of genuine conversion is that we hate the sin in ourselves, have no reliance on the flesh, and do what we can to keep our bodies under subjection. If we do fail in the flesh (and that is where our sinfulness is), we can use 1 John 1:9 to receive immediate forgiveness and cleansing.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Does a Christian go back and forth between walking in the Spirit and walking in the flesh? IOW, do they go back and forth between being saved, and unsaved?
Walking in the Spirit is to hate sin and love holiness. It also involves fighting the battle between the flesh and the Spirit, being clothed with the armour of God, and using the sword of the Spirit and all-prayer as our offensive weapons against sin. We might lose some of the battles, but we have already won the war. Walking in the flesh is not making any effort to fight the battle against sin, and to willingly walk in the deeds of the flesh (listed in Galatians 5). A person who lays down his weapons, takes off the armour and lives in the flesh, shows that genuine conversion to Christ has not happened in the first place.
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Walking in the Spirit is to hate sin and love holiness. It also involves fighting the battle between the flesh and the Spirit, being clothed with the armour of God, and using the sword of the Spirit and all-prayer as our offensive weapons against sin. We might lose some of the battles, but we have already won the war. Walking in the flesh is not making any effort to fight the battle against sin, and to willingly walk in the deeds of the flesh (listed in Galatians 5). A person who lays down his weapons, takes off the armour and lives in the flesh, shows that genuine conversion to Christ has not happened in the first place.
A believer is capable of living in the flesh. All believers have a choice whether to live according to the Spirit or to live according to the flesh. Unbelievers have no such choice as they are only capable of living according to the flesh since they are unregenerated. While it is true that some who claim to be believers, were never believers in the first place, it does not logically follow that all who claim to be believers were never believers. That would be like saying since some chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown eggs which of course is not true. The Apostle Paul in Romans 8:13 warned the brethren living in Rome that if they are living according to the flesh (continual sin), they will die (spiritual death).
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,001
69
USA
✟585,304.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It could be. But different people mean different things by these terms. What does OSAS mean to you?

Once one so much as claims he has faith, he is saved and regardless of what he does, or does not do thereafter, he cannot lose that salvation.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Once one so much as claims he has faith, he is saved and regardless of what he does, or does not do thereafter, he cannot lose that salvation.
The Bible doesn't teach that.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
A believer is capable of living in the flesh. All believers have a choice whether to live according to the Spirit or to live according to the flesh. Unbelievers have no such choice as they are only capable of living according to the flesh since they are unregenerated. While it is true that some who claim to be believers, were never believers in the first place, it does not logically follow that all who claim to be believers were never believers. That would be like saying since some chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown eggs which of course is not true. The Apostle Paul in Romans 8:13 warned the brethren living in Rome that if they are living according to the flesh (continual sin), they will die (spiritual death).
Let me ask you a question. Would you choose to live in the flesh? If not, why?
 
Upvote 0

SaintCody777

The young, curious Berean
Jan 11, 2018
315
317
29
Miami, Florida
✟53,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
How does total depravity play out in a Christian's life. Is a Christian STILL totally depraved? Does God consider a Christian a sinner or a saint?
I'm an Arminian and I hold total depravity. Believe it or not, Jacob Arminius and even John Wesley taught that man have a corrupted will, they cannot choose God on their own unless He uses prevenient grace to draw sinners, giving them a chance to choose to life their trust in Jesus (John 6:44).
I'm terms of your question, a Christian, who is still in his body while on Earth will still struggle with sin, just as he can still get sick of hurt. Even the Apsotle
Paul admitted that he was struggling with sin (Romans 7). God considers a Christian righteous the moment he puts his faith in Christ (Romans 4:1-5; Ephesians 2:8). So though a Christian will still struggle with sin, being that he is in a totally depraved body, God considers that Christian to be a saint because his faith in Christ automatically makes a Christian considered righteous and holy before God. This is called imputed righteousness.
 
Upvote 0

shagsnacks

Active Member
Feb 16, 2019
49
20
42
Illinois
✟9,267.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
According to Calvinism, every person is born depraved and is condemned by God soley at the pleasure of God until they accept Christ. After they accept Christ they are then pronounced righteous.

Yes and no. First, "Total Depravity" is a bit of a misnomer. It means that every part of a human is tainted with sin and capable of evil. It doesn't mean we aren't capable of good. As for "After they accept Christ they are pronounced righteous". I'm not sure that's true. Calvinists accept predestination and salvation by grace, so it is God saying "I am choosing to save this person by my grace". But God made that decision (or at least knew, if making the weak claim to predestination) that beforehand. Romans 9 teaches this.

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

So ultimately, if God chooses beforehand then we are righteous in God's mind. That's precisely what Romans 8 teaches.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

shagsnacks

Active Member
Feb 16, 2019
49
20
42
Illinois
✟9,267.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
How does total depravity play out in a Christian's life. Is a Christian STILL totally depraved? Does God consider a Christian a sinner or a saint?

The Bible directly answers your question.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

See my other post for more info
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Silverback

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2019
1,306
853
61
South East
✟66,756.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
How does total depravity play out in a Christian's life. Is a Christian STILL totally depraved? Does God consider a Christian a sinner or a saint?

Total depravity, is tied at the hip with unconditional election. It is difficult concept to grasp, but, once a person receives God's grace, then through faith he is declared righteous for Christ sake, faith itself is a gift of God. Our nature remains corrupt as long as we are in this body, we will continue to sin until we are called home. The good news is that when God looks at our record of sin it's through the blood of Christ. Martin Luther described our sinful nature as the "old man" on our back, so we repent and ask forgiveness daily, trusting in God's grace, mercy, and his promise of salvation. Personally, I do not believe we fall from God's grace, our sin may hamper our relationship with God, but our soul belongs to him, and we will see him in our flesh, and he will say "well done good and faithful servant".
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Let me ask you a question. Would you choose to live in the flesh? If not, why?
Because if I choose to live in the flesh (habitual sin), I will spiritually die as Rom 8:13 warns against. I don't want to experience spiritual death and separation from God, therefore my desire is to live according to the Spirit. I am by no stretch of the imagination perfect/sinless but I strive toward living a sanctified life which we all should be doing.
Note that the prodigal son who lived in sin/rebellion is described by Jesus himself in Lk 15:24,32 as being alive AGAIN. The only way I know of for a person to be made alive AGAIN is for a person to become a genuine believer thus being made alive in Christ (1st time). However that new believer at some later point falls into habitual sin (like the prodigal) but later forsakes his sin and returns to the Father in repentance seeking forgiveness (like to the prodigal). He is then forgiven and made spiritually alive AGAIN. The prodigal did not physically die but he died spiritually when he lived a lifestyle of sinning. The prodigal was made spiritually alive AGAIN when he renounced his sins and repented. The prodigal had enough sense to know that he needed to repent and return to his father. Many believers today do not realize that they need to repent and return to the Father because they have been taught hypergrace - grace covers all sin so grace ends up being a license to sin, which Paul also warned against.
 
Upvote 0

shagsnacks

Active Member
Feb 16, 2019
49
20
42
Illinois
✟9,267.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Total depravity, is tied at the hip with unconditional election. It is difficult concept to grasp, but, once a person receives God's grace, then through faith he is declared righteous for Christ sake, faith itself is a gift of God. Our nature remains corrupt as long as we are in this body, we will continue to sin until we are called home. The good news is that when God looks at our record of sin it's through the blood of Christ. Martin Luther described our sinful nature as the "old man" on our back, so we repent and ask forgiveness daily, trusting in God's grace, mercy, and his promise of salvation. Personally, I do not believe we fall from God's grace, our sin may hamper our relationship with God, but our soul belongs to him, and we will see him in our flesh, and he will say "well done good and faithful servant".

The Bible seems to indicate we are declared righteous by God prior to actually receiving God's grace, because God knows and chooses beforehand.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Silverback

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2019
1,306
853
61
South East
✟66,756.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
The Bible seems to indicate we are declared righteous by God prior to actually receiving God's grace, because God knows and chooses beforehand.

That's the Unconditional Election part of the issue. Before the foundation of the world, God, by his own counsil, and by his grace chose those he would bring to faith in Christ. This was not based on anything special about the person, nor was it based on his foreknowledge. The names of the saved (the elect) were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Some people receive mercy, others are passed by and receive justice, no one receives injustice.
 
Upvote 0