If Yeshua was the sacrificial Lamb of God

gadar perets · Feb 16, 2019

AbbaLove said:
Would appreciate your interpretation of any connection of the desert goat to Yeshua being in the desert wilderness for 40 days. Or is the desert goat's only connection only to that of Israel's 40-yr desert wilderness journey. One in which all the first generation died except for Caleb and Joshua.

I see no connection to Yeshua being in the wilderness for 40 days or to Israel's wilderness journey since neither concerns Yom HaKippurim or the removal of sins.

I do see a connection to Psalms 103:12;

As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.

visionary · Feb 16, 2019

gadar perets said:
I see no connection to Yeshua being in the wilderness for 40 days or to Israel's wilderness journey since neither concerns Yom HaKippurim or the removal of sins.

I do see a connection to Psalms 103:12;

As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.

Both were led to temptation during their wilderness adventure.

chunkofcoal · Feb 17, 2019

AbbaLove said:
The religious leaders tried to throw Yeshua over the cliff (Luke 4:29) in His hometown where He could only heal a few because of the unbelief of the majority. A 1-yr old lamb from a sheep or goat could be offered as a Passover sacrifice ...

Exodus 12:5 (JPS Tanakh)
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year; ye shall take it
from the sheep, or from the goats;

But they didn't throw the Passover lambs off the cliff.

gadar perets · Feb 17, 2019

visionary said:
Both were led to temptation during their wilderness adventure.

True, but AbbaLove was not asking for a comparison of Yeshua's and Israel's wilderness adventures. He wanted a comparison of both to the goat led into the wilderness on Yom HaKippurim.

AbbaLove · Feb 17, 2019

chunkofcoal said:
But they didn't throw the Passover lambs off the cliff.

You are missing the context and implication of Exodus 12:5 ...

Exodus 12:5 (JPS Tanakh)
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year; ye shall take it
from the sheep, or from the goats;

The phrase, "Lamb of God" can also be interrupted as being a goat lamb. This helps us better understand the significance of the two goats of atonement on Yom Kippur ...

"The tail of the goat on the left transforms into the horn of the other goat, his face dark and doomed. The goat to be offered as a sin offering appears more complete, as it rises, its blood to be sprinkled in all directions. The other goat has a deathlike appearance, its face turned downwards."

"The painting conveys a sense of things breaking apart, of transformation, and of a new reality being forged by fire and blood. There is a kind of spiritual alchemy, in this process of transmuting the goats into another dimension, as the sins of the nation are forgiven through their deaths."

The Two Yom Kippur Goats

Goats were apparently as important to ancient Israel's livelihood as were sheep. If not so then God wouldn't have included "goats" in the above verse. Besides it makes perfect sense when considering the purpose of the two goats on Yom Kippur (Leviticus 16:8-10).

10 But he must present alive before Yahweh the goat on which the lot for Azazel fell to make atonement for himself, to send it away into the desert to Azazel. (LEB)

As to be expected with His Word there is a hidden depth that isn't discerned. There is a meaningful parallel (revelation) between the Azazel sent away into the wilderness and Yeshua spending 40 days in a desert wilderness just as Israel spent 40 years wandering in a desert wilderness. When one understands the hidden wisdom of Numbers 21:9 ... "And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived" ... then one will get the connection with both goats and Yeshua being led by the Holy Spirit into the desert wilderness for 40 days, and the Israelites wandering in the desert wilderness for 40 years. However, unlike the Azazel goat the Holy Spirit strengthened Yeshua just as the Holy Spirit strengthens His chosen ones that have Trusted in him and not trusting in their own understanding (Proverbs 3:5-7).

Unfortunately even 40 years in the wilderness cleansing the Israelites of worldliness they soon lost their trust in Yahweh after arriving in the Promised Land. After 2,000 years some still don't believe the only way is being born again with the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit.

gadar perets said:
True, but AbbaLove was not asking for a comparison of Yeshua's and Israel's wilderness adventures. He wanted a comparison of both to the goat led into the wilderness on Yom HaKippurim.[/QUOTE]

As for me it seems pretty evident that both goats are a revelation of the coming sacrificial death and resurrection power of the Lamb of Yahweh and with it an atonement for mankind's sin's and mankind's salvation.

When one understands the wisdom of Yahweh and the bronze snake on a pole (Numbers 21:4-9), then one understands the wisdom of Yahweh hidden throughout the Tanakh. A wisdom that Messianic Jews are privy too with Spiritual eyes and ears that orthodox Jews are blind and deaf too ... even though the writings of the Rabbinic sages (e.g. Rashi and others) reveal the hidden truth of Yeshua fulfilling Yom Kippur for His true Believers ... thus no longer the need for a physical Temple (1 Corinthians 6:19) or Yom HaKippurim or the two goats.

Amein, Amein! (or Truly, Truly! or Verily, Verily! or Surely, Surely!)

Lulav · Feb 18, 2019

gadar perets said:
Since Yeshua is our sin and trespass offering, then the points about such offerings being female do not match up with Yeshua being a male offering.

As I said, The passage you quoted was speaking of individuals not the whole nation.

Yeshua , despite the misunderstanding of many Christian groups, did not die to fulfill all the sacrifices.

The Passover (speaking of the one and only true Passover, the rest were memorials to it) was to save Israel from the plague of the death of the first born. It also hearkened back to Abraham and the Akida where Abraham tells Issac that G-d HIMSELF will provide a lamb (this was when Abraham saw Yeshuas 'day' and rejoiced in it).

It also shows that Yeshua was the substitute for Israel when the Sanhedrin met to talk about this man.

47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation

There was more going on there than meets the eye but I won't get into that now.

Then as I said before, there is the 'custom' during Passover mentioned. Yes, previously it was G-d himself that choose which goat, but Pilate was not going to consult with G-d, so he let the people choose. They choose to let 'Yeshua son of the Father' (Yeshua Bar Abbas) go free. He was set free with his sins to live. Yeshua ben Miriam was sent to die with the sins of the people, not his own.

Lulav · Feb 18, 2019

AbbaLove said:
The Pharisees spread a lie that His disciples came and removed His body. Others may have imagined that He never died as He was reported to be seen alive for several days (40 days) after the stone was rolled away from the tomb where His lifeless dead body was laid.

Your inclusion of "If" in the thread title and your belief that "Yeshua did not die" is IMO disingenuous to the intent of this forum's SOP. As far as the sacrificial goat there is enough scripture to support the belief that Yeshua was not only the sacrificial Lamb of God, but also a type of scapegoat lamb (see What is the meaning of Azazel / the scapegoat?). I've purposely posted this reply as #60, as #61 and a new page will soon appear, in the event my reply is offensive to you ... so hopefully a new page will soon appear

What is 'offensive' as well as poor debate protocol is taking the words of someone out of context as you repeatedly like to do. I will give a lengthy explanation that all can understand, I hope.

This is what I said, in context:

Lulav said:
The passage you quoted was speaking of individuals not the whole nation. Yeshua did not die, was not sacrificed for himself.

Now as Gadar was posting about female sacrifices which were for individuals, ie, people, a man, a woman, etc. it does not make sense that Yeshua would die only for a single person, even though that is taught in many churches. "Even if you were the only person he would have died for you',(I've heard people say that many times) that is a great misunderstanding and a misleading one as well. It also shows how the 'OT" is held is such little regard as many don't understand just what Yeshua was doing.

Again, the passage was not speaking of a national sacrifice which is what Yeshua was.

So to reiterate.

Yeshua did not die for, nor was he sacrificed for----himself.
Yeshua did die/was sacrificed for the whole nation of Israel.

Hopefully you can now understand what I was saying and will not continue with your allegations.

AbbaLove said:
Agree and Congrats on receiving a "Winner" award for your knowledgeable post
Would appreciate your interpretation of any connection of the desert goat to Yeshua being in the desert wilderness for 40 days. Or is the desert goat's only connection only to that of Israel's 40-yr desert wilderness journey. One in which all the first generation died except for Caleb and Joshua.

Lulav · Feb 18, 2019

gadar perets said:
the Passover lamb needed to be literally eaten, but the ultimate Passover Lamb (Yeshua) is not to be literally eaten; etc.

But then there's this from the Gospel of John, chapter 6

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue

bèlla · Feb 18, 2019

AbbaLove said:
Rabbi Singer does give the impression that the Apostle John got it right as well as the Rabbi's apparent understanding/interpretation of the NT Gospels? Being anti-Messianic Judaism or anti-Missionary is nothing knew ... perhaps he is among the select "elect" reform Jewish believers (Calvinist leaning)

Can you expound on your comment about the Rabbi and election please? Specifically how it relates to his alleged stance on Messianic Judaism and missionaries. Thank you.

AbbaLove · Feb 18, 2019

Lulav said:
So to reiterate.

Yeshua did not die for, nor was he sacrificed for----himself.
Yeshua did die/was sacrificed for the whole nation of Israel.
Hopefully you can now understand what I was saying and will not continue with your allegations.

Thanks for just now rewording your original post from "Yeshua did not die, was not sacrificed for himself" ... to ... "Yeshua did not die for, nor was he sacrificed for himself". Besides WHOM in this MJ forum has ever implied that Yeshua's sacrificial death was for himself, anymore than the perfect spotless lamb or the two goats death was just for their hide and their hide alone?

If you would have added "for, nor" in your original post one wouldn't have misconstrued your initial post. Even just adding "for" makes your intent clear

with your rewording from your original post as shown above (#67) which i've pasted below ...

Lulav said: ↑
The passage you quoted was speaking of individuals not the whole nation. Yeshua did not die, was not sacrificed for himself.

My misinterpretation from your intent wasn't helped by your incorporation of "If" in this thead's Title. Wasn't the only one that wondered where you were going with the inclusion of "If". ... It came across to me as something that an orthodox Jewish guest (that doubts Yeshua's legitimacy as Israel's Messiah) might post/reply in this MJ forum in addition to their belief that Yeshua has notl fulfilled Yom Kippur (The Day of Atonement).

You've got to ask yourself WHY hasn't Yeshua HaMashiach fulfilled the holiest day of the year in Judaism when it's central themes are atonement and repentance? The ruling religious orthodox Jews living in Israel today don't recognize Yeshua HaMashiach as having replaced the need for the two goats on Yom Kippur.

The Israelites trusted in Yahweh's instructions via Moshe to look at the bronze snake to be healed. However, today's orthodox Jews are blind to Isaiah 53, and furthermore refuse to put their trust in the Words of Yeshua HaMashiach and His Apostles as found in even the first 5 books of the Ketuvei HaShalichim. Apparently it's necessary for orthodox Jews to rebuild the Temple, so they can perform the ceremony of the two goats on Yom Kippur to atone for the past sins of the nation state of Israel. And yet the book of Revelation indicates that the religious leaders are fooled by a fake Messiah who will cause the sacrifices to stop and he will attempt to annihilate them, killing two-thirds of Israel's Jewish citizens.

It would be helpful if you would clarify your insertion of "If" in this thread's Title as it comes across (considering your #1 post) as if you are not only questioning whether ("If") Yeshua was the sacrificial Lamb of Yahweh ... "And also the Atonement Goat"(see the first words of your #1 post).

I'm wondering from the Title of this thread and your beginning words ... "And also the Atonement Goat" should be interpreted that you believe that Yom Kippur has not been fulfilled for Messianic Jews by the sacrificial shed blood and physical death of Yeshua HaMashiach as not only the Lamb of Yahweh, but also having assumed the place of the two goats on Yom Kippur ? So, as Paul said, I also say to you ... "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16) and "Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us." (1 John 3:24)

Isaiah 53:5, 11-12 (JPS)
5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, He was crushed because of our iniquities: The chastisement of our welfare was upon him, And with his stripes we were healed.
11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, Who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, And their iniquities he did bear.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, And he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; Because he bared his soul unto death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet he bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

Yom Kippur (The Day Of Atonement) has already been fulfilled for Messianic Jews, but apparently not yet for today's nation state of Israel according to orthodox Judaism (Rabbinic Judaism) and thus their need for a third temple.

AbbaLove · Feb 18, 2019

The following is one widely held Christian perspective (not without controversy) based on scriptural interpretation of end time events that have yet to occur ...

The Russian coalition will be destroyed supernaturally by God (Ezekiel 38:18-23 & 39:1-8).
The Antichrist will intervene and guarantee the security of Israel, enabling the Jews to rebuild their Temple (Daniel 9:27).
At the end of three and a half years, the Antichrist will enter the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem and declare himself to be God (Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15-18, & 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).
The Jews will reject the Antichrist, and he will respond with an attempt to annihilate them, killing two-thirds of them in the process (Revelation 12:13-17 & Zechariah 13:8-9).
At the end of the Tribulation, when the Jews have come to the end of themselves, they will turn to God and receive Yeshua as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10, Romans 9:27-28, & Romans 11:25-27).
Jesus will return and regather all believing Jews to Israel (Deuteronomy 30:1-9).
Israel will be established as the prime nation in the world (Isaiah 2:1-4 & Micah 4:1-7).
The Lord will bless the Jewish remnant by fulfilling all the promises He has made to Israel (Isaiah 60:1-62:7).
The blessings of God will flow out to all the nations through the Jewish people during the Millennial rule of Jesus (Zechariah 8:22-23).

Is it possible that Yeshua HaMashiach will reintroduce the moedim of Yom Kippur, being that it is one of the holiest of Yahweh's appointed times, including the ceremony of the two goats for those Christians/Messianic Jews that believe in the Millennium reign of Yeshua HaMashiach.

Possibly, the result of all the religious orthodox Jews (Rabbinic Judaism) living in Israel that won't accept Yeshua as their HaMashiach before His second coming. Thus no atonement was ever made for those Jews that rejected Yeshua as Israel's Messiah. Is this really one of the controversies Lulav is wanting to discuss/debate in this thread?

ralliann · Feb 18, 2019

AbbaLove said:
The following is one widely held Christian perspective (not without controversy) based on scriptural interpretation of end time events that have yet to occur ...

The Russian coalition will be destroyed supernaturally by God (Ezekiel 38:18-23 & 39:1-8).

The Antichrist will intervene and guarantee the security of Israel, enabling the Jews to rebuild their Temple (Daniel 9:27).

At the end of three and a half years, the Antichrist will enter the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem and declare himself to be God (Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15-18, & 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).

The Jews will reject the Antichrist, and he will respond with an attempt to annihilate them, killing two-thirds of them in the process (Revelation 12:13-17 & Zechariah 13:8-9).

At the end of the Tribulation, when the Jews have come to the end of themselves, they will turn to God and receive Yeshua as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10, Romans 9:27-28, & Romans 11:25-27).

Jesus will return and regather all believing Jews to Israel (Deuteronomy 30:1-9).

Israel will be established as the prime nation in the world (Isaiah 2:1-4 & Micah 4:1-7).

The Lord will bless the Jewish remnant by fulfilling all the promises He has made to Israel (Isaiah 60:1-62:7).

The blessings of God will flow out to all the nations through the Jewish people during the Millennial rule of Jesus (Zechariah 8:22-23).

Is it possible that Yeshua HaMashiach will reintroduce the moedim of Yom Kippur, being that it is one of the holiest of Yahweh's appointed times, including the ceremony of the two goats for those Christians/Messianic Jews that believe in the Millennium reign of Yeshua HaMashiach.

Possibly, the result of all the religious orthodox Jews (Rabbinic Judaism) living in Israel that won't accept Yeshua as their HaMashiach before His second coming. Thus no atonement was ever made for those Jews that rejected Yeshua as Israel's Messiah. Is this really one of the controversies Lulav is wanting to discuss/debate in this thread?

Another regathering and another holocaust?

AbbaLove · Feb 18, 2019

LaBèlla said:
Can you expound on your comment about the Rabbi and election please? Specifically how it relates to his alleged stance on Messianic Judaism and missionaries. Thank you.

By "election" i'm referring to what is generally referred to as Calvinism by Christendom. The great controversy in Christendom is calvinisim vs arminianism. For example calvinists don't believe salvation can be obtained by "asking Jesus into your heart" or "inviting Jesus into your heart." They believe God chooses who will be His Chosen Ones before they are even born.

Actually, i believe GOD uses both means as should be evident via several NT scriptures as well as the "elect chosen" possibly before they were even conceived and certainly before they were born (OT saints, prophets, kings). My point in the previous post was that it's my belief (IMO) that all GOD-fearing religious Jews (e.g. Rabbi Tovia Singer) believe they were chosen by GOD as His "elect" from the beginning of time and therefore they lean towards calvinism (even though they wouldn't use that term).

On the other hand Christendom in general has favored arminianism. However, times are a changing. The "elect" (calvinism) has become somewhat of a "trendy movement" in hopes of drawing in more of the "seeker-sensitive" crowd and then teaching them that if they say a simple prayer they are born again, holy, and among God's "elect" from the get-go being committed Christians (OSAS).

OK, now back to Rabbi Singer. First off he is quasi-knowledgeable when it comes to the first 5 books of the Ketuvei HaShalichim (the Apostolic Writings, commonly known as the New Testament). He cherry picks NT scripture to justify his beliefs. Bottom line he doesn't believe the NT is given by the Breath/Spirit of Elohim [G-d], to be used for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness. (II Timothy 3:15-17, I Thessalonians 2:13, II Peter 1:21). He does not consider himself to be a Messianic Jew and doesn't believe in proselytizing the seeker-sensitive non-Jew (anti-missionary). Indicative of his belief as one of the chosen "elect" from the beginning of time.

There are Messianic Jews (Messianic Judaism) that naturally believe they are among GOD'S chosen "elect" that follow Rabbi Singer's teachings ... www.outreachjudaism.org/

Well, I believe all of the above is more than enough expounding and possibly too much

bèlla · Feb 18, 2019

AbbaLove said:
By "election" i'm referring to what is generally referred to as Calvinism by Christendom. The great controversy in Christendom is calvinisim vs arminianism. For example calvinists don't believe salvation can be obtained by "asking Jesus into your heart" or "inviting Jesus into your heart." They believe God chooses who will be His Chosen Ones before they are even born.

Thank you for the lengthy explanation. I'm familiar with the terms but the context was strange and I wasn't sure if it referenced something else.

Actually, i believe GOD uses both means as should be evident via several NT scriptures as well as the "elect chosen" possibly before they were even conceived and certainly before they were born (OT saints, prophets, kings). My point in the previous post was that it's my belief (IMO) that all GOD-fearing religious Jews (e.g. Rabbi Tovia Singer) believe they were chosen by GOD as His "elect" from the beginning of time and therefore they lean towards calvinism (even though they wouldn't use that term).

Interesting. I came to faith in a Jewish synagogue. I found my way back to God and eventually accepted Christ too. I never heard the gospel. But I believed nonetheless. And I didn't pray a sinners prayer. I can understand it given my experiences.

He does not consider himself to be a Messianic Jew and doesn't believe in proselytizing the seeker-sensitive non-Jew (anti-missionary). Indicative of his belief as one of the chosen "elect" from the beginning of time.

It's not a Jewish concept. I was led to the synagogue and bypassed many places of worship en route. It wasn't proselytizing that won me to Him. It was love.

Thank you for the informative post.

AbbaLove · Feb 20, 2019

Welcome to the MJ forum!

It is snowing about 1-2" an hour. After the first 1 1/2" the most snowfall on record in February for Minnesota. My car is already snowed in so decided to hoof it to the nearby McDonalds. Enjoy the fresh air and white purity of snow. Besides one is suppose to get 40 minutes of exercise each day so won't need to go to the Y today.

The other reason for venturing out is i finally decided how to respond to your thoughtful reply.

________________________

When us kids were barely taller than a grasshopper could jump Dad and Mom decided to go to the Wisconsin Dells. One of the activities back then was an Indian dance ceremony (Winnebago/HoChunk Nation). As it was ending a Chief in colorful full dress with accessories walked through the crowd as the people were leaving to answer any questions and possibly receive any complementary or financial gratuity. Way back then many moons ago white's were rather cautious so don't remember anyone even even reaching out to shake his hand. On the way to the Dells we saw a wigwam in the woods (about 50' from the road near Black River Falls.

When this Chief passed us (both sisters have red hair, one auburn the other bright red). He stopped and with a warm smile looking down at my sister (the one with the bright red hair) said, "God smiled on you." I've often thought of that over the years and is probably why i've always felt a kind of kindred to our native original indigenous people (Winneabago, Dacotah, and Ojibwe).

I loved your testimony and believe G-D is looking down and smiling on you ...

Edited Afterthought: So YES, your 'rebirth/renewal' experience supports those that favor Calvinism (the elect), and also Arminianism (IMO) in that it's still up to each of us to receive HaMashiach/the Christ to abide in our spirit~heart (Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 2:6-7, Romans 10:9).

Dkh587 · Feb 22, 2019

AbbaLove said:
By "election" i'm referring to what is generally referred to as Calvinism by Christendom. The great controversy in Christendom is calvinisim vs arminianism. For example calvinists don't believe salvation can be obtained by "asking Jesus into your heart" or "inviting Jesus into your heart." They believe God chooses who will be His Chosen Ones before they are even born.

Actually, i believe GOD uses both means as should be evident via several NT scriptures as well as the "elect chosen" possibly before they were even conceived and certainly before they were born (OT saints, prophets, kings). My point in the previous post was that it's my belief (IMO) that all GOD-fearing religious Jews (e.g. Rabbi Tovia Singer) believe they were chosen by GOD as His "elect" from the beginning of time and therefore they lean towards calvinism (even though they wouldn't use that term).

On the other hand Christendom in general has favored arminianism. However, times are a changing. The "elect" (calvinism) has become somewhat of a "trendy movement" in hopes of drawing in more of the "seeker-sensitive" crowd and then teaching them that if they say a simple prayer they are born again, holy, and among God's "elect" from the get-go being committed Christians (OSAS).

OK, now back to Rabbi Singer. First off he is quasi-knowledgeable when it comes to the first 5 books of the Ketuvei HaShalichim (the Apostolic Writings, commonly known as the New Testament). He cherry picks NT scripture to justify his beliefs. Bottom line he doesn't believe the NT is given by the Breath/Spirit of Elohim [G-d], to be used for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness. (II Timothy 3:15-17, I Thessalonians 2:13, II Peter 1:21). He does not consider himself to be a Messianic Jew and doesn't believe in proselytizing the seeker-sensitive non-Jew (anti-missionary). Indicative of his belief as one of the chosen "elect" from the beginning of time.

There are Messianic Jews (Messianic Judaism) that naturally believe they are among GOD'S chosen "elect" that follow Rabbi Singer's teachings ...

Well, I believe all of the above is more than enough expounding and possibly too much

Tovia Singer is a well known anti-Messiah. Why are you posting anti-Messiah teachers and their content?

AbbaLove · Feb 23, 2019

Dkh587 said:
Tovia Singer is a well known anti-Messiah. Why are you posting anti-Messiah teachers and their content?

Because this is a Messianic Judaism forum. This MJ forum is far less enthralled with Christendom (e.g. RCC); whereas the Torah, the orthodoxy of Judaism and Rabbinic Judaism (Jewish Talmud) is of more interest to more than a few members of this MJ forum THAN is today's denominational and doctrinal walls of divisiveness within Christendom. You might want to read this MJ forums' SOP

For example this thread title beginning with "If" and its subsequent discussion/debate about Yom Kippur you'd not find such a discussion/debate on any of the several denominational forums (even doing an advanced search). As you may not be aware ... Messianic Jews and Messianic non-Jews prefer the seventh day of the week as the LORDS' Day being a Holy Convocation (the 4th Commandment).

Did you see post (#52) and the following post by tampasteve (#53) to which i and another member awarded his comment an "Agree" ...

tampasteve said:
That is a good video. Just to be clear, Rabbi Singer is not Messianic, he is one of the most popular anti-Missionaries around, he is very anti-Messianic Judaism, but he does make many thought provoking commentaries.

Perhaps, you're so influenced by your Christian denominational isolationalism tendency that you've even considered reporting me for posting that Youtube of Rabbi Singer.

Question to you as related to this thread: Do you believe the four Spring Moedims of the LORDS' seven Moedims (Feasts/Festivals) have already been fulfilled by the LORD ...

Passover – Pesach
Feast of Unleavened Bread – Matzah
Feast of First Fruits – Yom Habikkurim
Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) – Shavuot

What about the remaining three Fall Moedims of the LORD? Being that this isn't a MJ Only thread you can offer your opinion just as you've done in your above reply to me. --- So, do you believe these three Fall Moedims have already been fulfilled or have yet to be fulfilled ...

Feast of Trumpets – Yom Teruah (Rosh Hashanah)
Day of Atonement – Yom Kippur
Feast of Tabernacles – Sukkot

To answer your query (but perhaps not to your denominational theological satisfaction) you might consider the possibility that one of the purposes (of the originators of these CF faith forums) for including this MJ forum at CF was possibly their evangelistic zeal that one result of including this MJ forum at CF would be to hopefully attract the attention of secular Jews, reformed Jews or even orthodox Jews that would be more interested in lurking at this MJ forum THAN any of the several Christian denominational forums. The result being to possibly encouraging them to seek out and attend a Messianic congregation. Possibly the resulting consequence reading ALL of the Bible, coming to faith in Yeshua as the Son of YHVH, as Israel's Messiah and as the sacrificial Lamb of G-D.

Shabbat Shalom
(Peace that the Sabbath itself brings if you observe it)

If Yeshua was the sacrificial Lamb of God

Messianic Hebrew

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Messianic Christian

Messianic Hebrew

Circumcism Of The Heart

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

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Circumcism Of The Heart

Circumcism Of The Heart

christian

Circumcism Of The Heart

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Circumcism Of The Heart

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Circumcism Of The Heart

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