Welfare programs

Percivale said:

I have been supporting single payer healthcare on these forums, but I see a fundamental difference between that and other welfare spending such as food stamps, section 8 housing, and especially cash handouts. Welfare checks encourage people to stay poor and continue in an unwise lifestyle; I’ve seen people stay in government housing because it was free instead of working through minor differences with relatives who were happy to help them with good paying employment and support them in other ways. There is more dignity in earning one’s own needs rather than being dependent on impersonal government programs. Also government cannot afford to continue spending too much on programs that give people incentives to keep their income low, or reduce their need to work; there is the actual cost of the spending and also the loss to the economy of earnings people would get if they needed to.
I’m not opposed to welfare altogether, it just needs to be used carefully and kept within limits. Sometimes people really need help and welfare can help them get back on their feet financially and prevent the temptation of crime.
Also some wealthy cities cost of housing is very high so those cities should do something to make housing affordable, but state and federal government probably doesn’t need to be involved.

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Sounds to me like you hate poor people.

I have said for years that I will support National Health Insurance, but only if Congress finds a way to pay for it!

Junker P Hoodwink said:

Sounds to me like you hate poor people.

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I didn't see that at all.

I won't do the whole long story, as this is long enough but suffice to say, the government, at least in my case makes it nearly impossible to work, even if welfare receipts want to.

I started a growing online business (tested it), and contacted section 8 about a program they had where I could continue to draw housing help while building a business. they said they had nothing of the sort. I knew better and kept prodding them, it took years actually for me to get them to acknowledge the program, and for me to get going. It was seasonal but I immediately brought in around 1200 a month profit selling plants on Ebay.

Then a few yrs later, when I had to stop due to a knee replacement and ebay getting very hard to get along with, each year I'd go in to re-certify, they'd threaten me in so many words that if i was still making money they would catch me and take away my housing help. I wasn't.

Point being the program was pretty much there to make the public think something was being done to get people to work, but they were way too lazy to bother to actually implement it. They did all they could to make me give up and only after some emails that, in so many words, threatened them it they didn't allow it, did I get them to wake up. And then there were the threats when fact is, i was making no money while they all but assumed I was, but they kept up with their scare tactics. I knew they could do nothing, but that would intimidate a lot of people into never ever trying to actually make their own way again or even to begin with.

That's just one way the system is nuts/wasteful...I've seen a few. Another in my case cost the state anywhere from essentially $50,000 to $80,000 or more in rent/future rent that could have easily been avoided had they played their cards right...something I tried to get them to do.

Seems it's much easier for lazy government workers to just do the norm/pay out to the welfare client and try to avoid anything more, at, in my view, a huge cost.

Percivale said:

I have been supporting single payer healthcare on these forums, but I see a fundamental difference between that and other welfare spending such as food stamps, section 8 housing, and especially cash handouts. Welfare checks encourage people to stay poor and continue in an unwise lifestyle; I’ve seen people stay in government housing because it was free instead of working through minor differences with relatives who were happy to help them with good paying employment and support them in other ways. There is more dignity in earning one’s own needs rather than being dependent on impersonal government programs. Also government cannot afford to continue spending too much on programs that give people incentives to keep their income low, or reduce their need to work; there is the actual cost of the spending and also the loss to the economy of earnings people would get if they needed to.
I’m not opposed to welfare altogether, it just needs to be used carefully and kept within limits. Sometimes people really need help and welfare can help them get back on their feet financially and prevent the temptation of crime.
Also some wealthy cities cost of housing is very high so those cities should do something to make housing affordable, but state and federal government probably doesn’t need to be involved.

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Section 8 housing is NOT free housing, as you seem to think.

One pays 30% of adjusted gross income each month.

Percivale said:

I have been supporting single payer healthcare on these forums, but I see a fundamental difference between that and other welfare spending such as food stamps, section 8 housing, and especially cash handouts. Welfare checks encourage people to stay poor and continue in an unwise lifestyle; I’ve seen people stay in government housing because it was free instead of working through minor differences with relatives who were happy to help them with good paying employment and support them in other ways. There is more dignity in earning one’s own needs rather than being dependent on impersonal government programs. Also government cannot afford to continue spending too much on programs that give people incentives to keep their income low, or reduce their need to work; there is the actual cost of the spending and also the loss to the economy of earnings people would get if they needed to.
I’m not opposed to welfare altogether, it just needs to be used carefully and kept within limits. Sometimes people really need help and welfare can help them get back on their feet financially and prevent the temptation of crime.
Also some wealthy cities’ cost of housing is very high, so those cities should do something to make housing affordable, but state and federal government probably doesn’t need to be involved.

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Why is there more dignity in work? Just what sort of work are we talking about, burger manufacturing? This sort of rhetoric about the dignity of work is thrown around alot, without seriously considering whether it is actually true in the first place.

There is dignity in labor. It can be a form of prayer, in fact. The dignity comes in doing for one's self, and doing it well.

When labor is forced, or others appropriate the value of one's labor, it cease to have any meaning or dignity.

Medieval Christians had the concept of a "just wage", which meant that the worker and his employer were both respected and properly rewarded for their trouble. We've lost that, and have yet to find a way to replace it. It is one of the great problems in our society; it has led to apathetic employees and predatory employers, each trying to get as much as they can from the other, with as little value given by themselves as they can get away with.

I like gardening, and building things, and even doing the lawn; it's not much, but I feel a kind of accomplishment that I never got in my professional life. I think H. sapiens would be better described by "H. ergaster" - "Man, the worker." Unfortunately, someone else already has it.

ww

Junker P Hoodwink said:

Sounds to me like you hate poor people.

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I hope your post was in sarcasm. Differences in opinion doesn't mean hate by any stretch of the imagination.

Although, it is a popular bandwagon approach in this culture. It's sad that people don't realize how arrogant it sounds.

Monk Brendan said:

Section 8 housing is NOT free housing, as you seem to think.

One pays 30% of adjusted gross income each month.

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Public housing authorities pay the remainder of the rent. That's free housing.

And by free, of course, I mean tax payers are squeezed for it.

Constitutionally and politically is single payer viable? I think there's enough self-interest and opposition to hinder any genuine effort. People have different perspectives ideologically and personally about healthcare. So while I like the idea of it, I think practically it would be better to limit government and get people personally involved as communities and families.

@Percivale, do you think it's possible to effectively address healthcare and other societal needs for the poor locally and voluntarily?