Can a Muslim or a Jew get saved?

Selene03

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yeah, they did. you reject the Trinity, then you reject the God of the OT because the God of the OT is the Trinity.

and yes, God did reject them. Moses said it would happen.

According to the New Testament regarding the Jews:

Romans 11:26-29 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins. Concerning the gospels they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
 
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ArmyMatt

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According to the New Testament regarding the Jews:

Romans 11:26-29 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins. Concerning the gospels they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

except that the NT, Israel is the Church, comprised of Jew and Gentile. the gifts to Abraham were given PRIOR to the established Old Covenant, because Abraham's faith was shown earlier.

so the inheritors of the gifts are the Christians, since they have maintained the faith of Abraham. which again, Christ says Himself.
 
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Selene03

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except that the NT, Israel is the Church, comprised of Jew and Gentile. the gifts to Abraham were given PRIOR to the established Old Covenant, because Abraham's faith was shown earlier.

so the inheritors of the gifts are the Christians, since they have maintained the faith of Abraham. which again, Christ says Himself.

That is incorrect. The Church is the NEW ISRAEL. Read the scripture again. It says, "Concerning the gospels they are enemies for your sake..." The Church is NOT an enemy of the gospels, so clearly the scripture was in reference to the Jewish people. God did not reject the Jews. He is still their God.
 
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Barney2.0

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Jeremiah 8:8 doesn't say that. God revealed His name to the Jews. It's YHWH. This is the God they have always worshipped. So, are they worshiping a false God? In my opinion, the Jews worship the same God of Abraham as Christians. The problem is the Jews are ignorant of God's nature.

As an example, I know my mother more than my half brother. I lived my mother and grew up with her. She raised me; therefore, I know her character and attitude. My half brother never lived with her, but heard a lot of things about my mother. He doesn't know her character and attitude as well as I do; therefore, my half brother is ignorant of my mother's true character and attitude. This analogy is similar to the Jews and Christians. The Christians know God's nature better than the Jews.
Jeremiah 8:8 says if you don’t follow God and what he sent then you’ve automatically falsified it. If they are ignorant of God’s nature then they’re obviously not going to be taken to heaven if they stay in their ignorance. God is not a mother or a father, he is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Reject him partly and you reject him wholly, there’s no middle ground here.
 
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Barney2.0

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The Old Testament shows that God revealed Himself to His chosen people through the prophets and in their history.....plain and simple. The Catechism refuted what you said because you've always claimed that the Israelites of the Old Testament was revealed through the Son. You also said that "I AM" is Jesus. But I told you that both the Father and the Son are "I AM" because there is only one God.

The Jews worship the same God of Abraham whom Christians worship. The only difference is that Christians know the true nature of God because we have both the Old and New Testament whereas the Jews only have the Old Testament. Nevertheless, it is our duty to dialogue with the Jews and all other non-Christians so that they can also come to know Jesus Christ.

After the retreat with the 120 Jewish Rabbis in 2015, the founder of the Neocatechumenal Way, Kiko Argello, was interviewed. He was asked, "At the end of the meeting what has been the reaction of the rabbis?" According to Arguello:

"We received exciting experiences. A Rabbi of Israel, Rabbi David Brodman, started giving an experience that moved the assembly. He spoke of this meeting as a crucial meeting, of this relationship between the Catholic Church and the Jewish world that he never could have expected. He said: "This was my dream. I wanted - and the Lord gives me, at the end of my life - to see these things. " He cited a book by a rabbi who is very important to him; He said that we are in a time when we are experiencing "labor pains" to prepare for the arrival of the Messiah in our midst, and he's already seeing all this; Also in this meeting, he saw it as a preparation for this coming of the Messiah. Then there was another rabbi of Holland who also told his experience as a child he was saved by a Christian family. And also speaking of this meeting, he said: "I have really seen God work in our midst." Another rabbi who said: "I tell you frankly, that I realized something, listening to Kiko. I in my family, in my tradition, I never heard that God loves us ", and said with a force that moved the assembly. "I saw him here, in this house. - He said - I saw him really in the facts: how they welcomed us ... ", in the experiences that I have heard in the groups, how these couples spoke, these families, these brothers of the Neocatechumenal Way, saying with their lives, how God loved them, how he had redeemed them, saved them ... He said: "Well here, I asked my wife: 'But you, for example, have you heard from someone in your life, in the synagogue, this word, that God loves us? '". And his wife said to him: "No, I have not ever heard, ever heard!". And the rabbi said: "Me too ...". Also the experience of Rabbi Greenberg of the United States was very moved. The environment that was created at the end you cannot describe it, really! Then, we also had very familiar times, we had dances ... there was a spirit of communion that was very strong!"

The Jewish Rabbis were fascinated when they heard the Gospel that some felt so moved by it. They have never read the Holy Bible. They have never heard about the "Love of God." Why? Because the Love of God can only be found in the New Testament. Since 2015, we have been holding these retreats with the Jewish Rabbis at their request. And the Catholic Church continues to share the feast of the Epiphany with the Jews every year so that they can come to know Christ.
Since your Catholic then you should know, the Church never endorsed a two paths view:

Therefore there are not two paths to salvation according to the expression "Jews hold to the Torah, Christians hold to Christ." Christian faith proclaims that Christ’s work of salvation is universal and involves all mankind. God’s word is one single and undivided reality which takes concrete form in each respective historical context. . . .

Since God has never revoked his covenant with his people Israel, there cannot be different paths or approaches to God’s salvation. The theory that there may be two different paths to salvation, the Jewish path without Christ and the path with the Christ, whom Christians believe is Jesus of Nazareth, would in fact endanger the foundations of Christian faith. Confessing the universal and therefore also exclusive mediation of salvation through Jesus Christ belongs to the core of Christian faith. . . . [T]he Church and Judaism cannot be represented as "two parallel ways to salvation" . . .

[T]he Christian confession that there can be only one path to salvation . . .

There cannot be two ways of salvation, therefore, since Christ is also the Redeemer of the Jews in addition to the Gentiles (GCGI 25, 35, 36, 37).
 
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Barney2.0

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That is incorrect. The Church is the NEW ISRAEL. Read the scripture again. It says, "Concerning the gospels they are enemies for your sake..." The Church is NOT an enemy of the gospels, so clearly the scripture was in reference to the Jewish people. God did not reject the Jews. He is still their God.
The Jews rejected God when he appeared in the flesh. God didn’t turn his back on the Jews they did that when they crucified him.
 
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ArmyMatt

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That is incorrect. The Church is the NEW ISRAEL. Read the scripture again. It says, "Concerning the gospels they are enemies for your sake..." The Church is NOT an enemy of the gospels, so clearly the scripture was in reference to the Jewish people. God did not reject the Jews. He is still their God.

incorrect, nowhere does the Scripture say New Israel. He is not their God. this is your reading of the text, which is not supported by what the Fathers say.

seriously, read the Fathers.
 
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Selene03

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Jeremiah 8:8 says if you don’t follow God and what he sent then you’ve automatically falsified it. If they are ignorant of God’s nature then they’re obviously not going to be taken to heaven if they stay in their ignorance. God is not a mother or a father, he is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Reject him partly and you reject him wholly, there’s no middle ground here.

No, it doesn't.

Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us’? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.
 
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Selene03

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The Jews rejected God when he appeared in the flesh. God didn’t turn his back on the Jews they did that when they crucified him.

Again, the scripture is referring to the Jewish people.

Romans 11:26-29 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins. Concerning the gospels they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
 
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Selene03

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Since your Catholic then you should know, the Church never endorsed a two paths view:

Therefore there are not two paths to salvation according to the expression "Jews hold to the Torah, Christians hold to Christ." Christian faith proclaims that Christ’s work of salvation is universal and involves all mankind. God’s word is one single and undivided reality which takes concrete form in each respective historical context. . . .

Since God has never revoked his covenant with his people Israel, there cannot be different paths or approaches to God’s salvation. The theory that there may be two different paths to salvation, the Jewish path without Christ and the path with the Christ, whom Christians believe is Jesus of Nazareth, would in fact endanger the foundations of Christian faith. Confessing the universal and therefore also exclusive mediation of salvation through Jesus Christ belongs to the core of Christian faith. . . . [T]he Church and Judaism cannot be represented as "two parallel ways to salvation" . . .

[T]he Christian confession that there can be only one path to salvation . . .

There cannot be two ways of salvation, therefore, since Christ is also the Redeemer of the Jews in addition to the Gentiles (GCGI 25, 35, 36, 37).

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (the bold is mine):

CCC 839 Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

CCC 840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
 
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Selene03

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incorrect, nowhere does the Scripture say New Israel. He is not their God. this is your reading of the text, which is not supported by what the Fathers say.

seriously, read the Fathers.

The Church says we are the New Israel. As a Catholic, I listen to my Church, because scripture says that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church. And according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (the bold 8s mine):

CCC 877 ......In fact, from the beginning of his ministry, the Lord Jesus instituted the Twelve as "the seeds of the new Israel and the beginning of the sacred hierarchy." Chosen together, they were also sent out together, and their fraternal unity would be at the service of the fraternal communion of all the faithful: they would reflect and witness to the communion of the divine persons......
 
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Barney2.0

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According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (the bold is mine):

CCC 839 Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
That actually proves my point, Christ has been given to them so they have to believe in him.
 
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Barney2.0

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No, it doesn't.

Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us’? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.
Actually it does, you see scribes were teachers of the law, and this is how Jews have falsified the law by rejecting Jesus Christ.
 
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Selene03

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Actually it does, you see scribes were teachers of the law, and this is how Jews have falsified the law by rejecting Jesus Christ.

Then the scribes and the teachers of the law will be the one to be punished for misleading God's people for anyone who misleads even the little ones astray, it's better that a milestone be placed around their neck and cast into the sea.
 
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ArmyMatt

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The Church says we are the New Israel. As a Catholic, I listen to my Church, because scripture says that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church. And according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (the bold 8s mine):

CCC 877 ......In fact, from the beginning of his ministry, the Lord Jesus instituted the Twelve as "the seeds of the new Israel and the beginning of the sacred hierarchy." Chosen together, they were also sent out together, and their fraternal unity would be at the service of the fraternal communion of all the faithful: they would reflect and witness to the communion of the divine persons......

except this is the ORTHODOX subforum. you can't try to justify your argument with something we believe to be in error. we don't believe Rome is in the Church, so simply pointing to your catechism doesn't add to your argument.
 
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Selene03

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What was the meaning of Matthew 21:33-46 ?
The parable was referring to the Pharisees. Scripture says so at the end of the parable. They will not enter God's Kingdom. The Pharisees were also the ones who lied to their people. They paid the soldiers guarding the tomb not to say anything. The Pharisees told the Jews that the disciples stole Jesus body and that He didn't rise from the dead..
 
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Selene03

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except this is the ORTHODOX subforum. you can't try to justify your argument with something we believe to be in error. we don't believe Rome is in the Church, so simply pointing to your catechism doesn't add to your argument.

My brother, the Eastern Orthodox Church also believes that they are the New Israel. According to an Orthodox Christian website regarding Romans 11 (the bold is mine):

St. Paul’s teaching in Romans 11 is clear that those Jews who rejected Christ are like branches cut off from the olive tree, which represents the people of God—and that gentile converts are like wild olive branches that have been grafted on to that same tree. The Church is the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16), the Israelites formed the Church of the Old Testament, but the New Testament Church is in continuity with the old. However, Romans 11 is equally clear that there is still a future in God’s providence for those who are the physical descendants of the Old Testament Israel, who rejected Christ and so have been cut off from the Church, but who will one day be saved. And so we do speak of the Church as the new Israel, but this does not mean there is no sense in which we can still speak of the Israel according to the flesh.

Fr. John Whiteford. The New Israel, New Jerusalem
 
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ArmyMatt

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My brother, the Eastern Orthodox Church also believes that they are the New Israel. According to an Orthodox Christian website regarding Romans 11 (the bold is mine):

St. Paul’s teaching in Romans 11 is clear that those Jews who rejected Christ are like branches cut off from the olive tree, which represents the people of God—and that gentile converts are like wild olive branches that have been grafted on to that same tree. The Church is the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16), the Israelites formed the Church of the Old Testament, but the New Testament Church is in continuity with the old. However, Romans 11 is equally clear that there is still a future in God’s providence for those who are the physical descendants of the Old Testament Israel, who rejected Christ and so have been cut off from the Church, but who will one day be saved. And so we do speak of the Church as the new Israel, but this does not mean there is no sense in which we can still speak of the Israel according to the flesh.

Fr. John Whiteford. The New Israel, New Jerusalem

except, Fr John would reject how you are interpreting that. plus, a priest's blog post is not the Fathers.

and, actually, reading the non-bolded parts, Fr John is making the opposite case you are.
 
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Selene03

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except, Fr John would reject how you are interpreting that. plus, a priest's blog post is not the Fathers.

and, actually, reading the non-bolded parts, Fr John is making the opposite case you are.

My brother, I said from the very beginning that it isn't our place to judge who is saved and who isn't saved. That role belongs only to God. The Christian's role is to manifest Christ in us as we spread the Gospel. It's always best to follow the example of the Apostle Paul when spreading the Gospel.

I have always said that the Jews have always worshipped the one true God despite that they are ignorant of His nature, but I never claimed that they are saved or unsaved. My Church claims that there is a possibility they can be saved, but we don't know. Even scripture claimed that it is possible for a Gentile to find salvation so long as he follows the law written in his heart.

Romans 2:14-16 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
 
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