chunkofcoal
Messianic Christian
But Yeshua and the Jews weren't discussing Enoch, they were discussing Abraham.
And it is written that Abraham "died" but it's also written that he was "gathered to his people."
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Debate-For MJ's Only The rapture - what happens, and when?
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And it is written that Abraham "died" but it's also written that he was "gathered to his people."
chunkofcoal
Messianic Christian
So are you saying that one has to be dead/asleep so you won't see or taste death? That seems like a contradiction.
Yeshua said:
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
BUT He also said:
Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
So is there a difference between seeing death, and tasting death?
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chunkofcoal
Messianic Christian
So basically do you all believe in the resurrection but not life after 'death'?
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To me that is the same as saying "sleep with they fathers".
2 Samuel 7:12
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
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Mercy74
Mercy Messianic Judaism
I mean exactly what I said. The senses pertain to those that are alive? Can a blind man see death? Can a dead man taste death? What does death taste like? Is it a bitter or sweet taste? The payment for sin is death. After every man has received his just payment for his sin which is death, "death has been swallowed up in victory.'So are you saying that one has to be dead/asleep so you won't see or taste death? That seems like a contradiction.
Yeshua said:
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
BUT He also said:
Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
So is there a difference between seeing death, and tasting death?
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Mercy74
Mercy Messianic Judaism
This is an excellent question. What do you mean by life? Fire is considered a non-living thing. Our G-d is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). Since water and fire are non-living, can they die? When Elijah built the altar, a consuming fire fell down from heaven.
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AbbaLove
Circumcism Of The Heart
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By senses are you including the spiritual senses or just the physical senses? So, is it your physical sense or your born again spiritual sense that responses to this thread's "rapture" discussion that Isaiah and Yeshua/Jesus speak of for those saints that died (slept)? Those saints that died were spiritually "asleep" (Matthew 27:52) and became alive again after receiving "born again" bodies.
Your response seems void of the importance of one's born again Spiritual condition by which a saint is "raptured" (e.g. Enoch and Elijah). This brings up the question of whether or not Enoch, Elijah, and those "sleeping saints" in Matthew 27:52 were "born again" ??? My own belief is that those "sleeping saints" were/are "born again" in the sense that they were revived back to the breath of life with a supernatural/glorified body. Would you agree that only those that are "raptured" are those that are "born again" having spiritual eyes to see, even though their physical eyes are blind? Isn't Isaiah referring to those saints that have died physically and are "asleep" spiritually in the following verse as are the Spiritual Words of Yeshua? In other words His Words in verses 39-41 refer to the spiritually blind Pharisees whose physical ears and eyes were deaf and blind to the Spiritual Truths of Yeshua.
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Your response seems void of the importance of one's born again Spiritual condition by which a saint is "raptured" (e.g. Enoch and Elijah). This brings up the question of whether or not Enoch, Elijah, and those "sleeping saints" in Matthew 27:52 were "born again" ??? My own belief is that those "sleeping saints" were/are "born again" in the sense that they were revived back to the breath of life with a supernatural/glorified body. Would you agree that only those that are "raptured" are those that are "born again" having spiritual eyes to see, even though their physical eyes are blind? Isn't Isaiah referring to those saints that have died physically and are "asleep" spiritually in the following verse as are the Spiritual Words of Yeshua? In other words His Words in verses 39-41 refer to the spiritually blind Pharisees whose physical ears and eyes were deaf and blind to the Spiritual Truths of Yeshua.
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Isaiah 29:18
On that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of the deep darkness the eyes of the blind will see.
John 9:39-41
39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."
On that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of the deep darkness the eyes of the blind will see.
John 9:39-41
39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."
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Mercy74
Mercy Messianic Judaism
Since death has been swallowed up in victory, a consuming fire may have tasted death.So are you saying that one has to be dead/asleep so you won't see or taste death? That seems like a contradiction.
Yeshua said:
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
BUT He also said:
Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
So is there a difference between seeing death, and tasting death?
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Mercy74
Mercy Messianic Judaism
Yeshua healed men of their physical blindness, the Pharisees claimed they could see, thus their sin remains. The graves were open, those saints were dead! Death is swallowed up in victory, those things that we eat or swallow we may taste first. Our G-d is a consuming fire.
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AbbaLove
Circumcism Of The Heart
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In John 8:51 Yeshua is speaking of a "born again" saint (see Matthew 27:52). Every saint will be purified by fire and some will barely make it coming out with the smell of smoke, but not destroyed.
Job 23:10
Yet He knows the way I have taken; when He has tested me, I will come forth as gold.
Psalm 66:10
For You, O God, have tested us; You have refined us like silver.
Psalm 66:12
You let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and water, but You brought us into abundance.
1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Jude 1:23
save others by snatching them from the fire; and to still others, show mercy tempered with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh.
Yet He knows the way I have taken; when He has tested me, I will come forth as gold.
Psalm 66:10
For You, O God, have tested us; You have refined us like silver.
Psalm 66:12
You let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and water, but You brought us into abundance.
1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Jude 1:23
save others by snatching them from the fire; and to still others, show mercy tempered with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh.
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AbbaLove
Circumcism Of The Heart
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Thus, the importance of being "born again" in order to be "raptured" as were those Jewish saints in Matthew 27:52. Without being supernaturally born again Spiritually one's fallen spirit is blind and deaf to God's Spirit (even though they think they can hear and see). However, for those that are redeemed they are as "asleep" when they are physically dead, but spiritually asleep as were those saints in Matthew 27:52. FWIW i believe Moshe was/is "asleep" until he was/is raptured. The saints in Matthew 27:52 were raptured after appearing to many in Jerusalem as a witness to the resurrection power of Yeshua.
You need to be Spiritually born again in order to be raptured into the Kingdom of God
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What do you do with the argument that Michael had?
Jude 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Or that it was Moses who was at the transfiguration?
Matthew 17:3
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
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AbbaLove
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How do you see that that negates the necessity of being "born again" or Moses not being "spirituality asleep" in his physically body having expired? Are not Yahweh's "saints" those that have physically died and will be resurrected with a supernatural body? Those that were resurrected in Matthew 27:52 are referred to as "saints" as Mercy74 has rightly stated.
Those saints in Jerusalem that were resurrected in Matthew 27:52 certainly preceded "we which are alive and remain" going now on nearly 2,000 years. Perhaps a million "sleeping" saints have already been resurrected over nearly the past 2,000 years and are among those considered "the last will be first" (them) as well as "we which are alive and remain" will meet them in the clouds. Then those ancient God-fearing men and women that died before the sacrificial Lamb of GOD was resurrected are they among the "first [that] will be last" ?
Who do you think are among the "last that will be first" and who do you think are among those that are the "first that will be last" ? Do you interpret 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as "we" will be "last" and "them" will be "first" as one possibility ? So, the physically dead saints over the past nearly 2,000 years that are "asleep" spirituality are they them ? Matthew 19:30 implies not all, but rather "many who are first shall be last ..."
Also keep in mind Ephesians 2:6-7 when contemplating who them are ... possibly implying that the New Covenant Saints are among the "last that will be first"; whereas the God-fearing men and women living under the Law of the Torah are among the "first that will be last" ...
Those saints in Jerusalem that were resurrected in Matthew 27:52 certainly preceded "we which are alive and remain" going now on nearly 2,000 years. Perhaps a million "sleeping" saints have already been resurrected over nearly the past 2,000 years and are among those considered "the last will be first" (them) as well as "we which are alive and remain" will meet them in the clouds. Then those ancient God-fearing men and women that died before the sacrificial Lamb of GOD was resurrected are they among the "first [that] will be last" ?
Who do you think are among the "last that will be first" and who do you think are among those that are the "first that will be last" ? Do you interpret 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as "we" will be "last" and "them" will be "first" as one possibility ? So, the physically dead saints over the past nearly 2,000 years that are "asleep" spirituality are they them ? Matthew 19:30 implies not all, but rather "many who are first shall be last ..."
Matthew 19:30
But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.
Matthew 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Mark 10:31
But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.
Luke 13:30
And indeed, some who are last will be first, and some who are first will be last.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with the LORD.
But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.
Matthew 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Mark 10:31
But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.
Luke 13:30
And indeed, some who are last will be first, and some who are first will be last.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with the LORD.
Also keep in mind Ephesians 2:6-7 when contemplating who them are ... possibly implying that the New Covenant Saints are among the "last that will be first"; whereas the God-fearing men and women living under the Law of the Torah are among the "first that will be last" ...
Ephesians 2:6-7
6 That is, God raised us up with the Messiah Yeshua and seated us with Him in Heaven,
7 in order to exhibit in the ages to come how infinitely rich is His grace, how great is His kindness toward us who are united with the Messiah Yeshua.
6 That is, God raised us up with the Messiah Yeshua and seated us with Him in Heaven,
7 in order to exhibit in the ages to come how infinitely rich is His grace, how great is His kindness toward us who are united with the Messiah Yeshua.
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Moses saw and talked to God "face to face".. can't get better than that... evidence of the Holy Spirit was the fact his "face glowed".
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Mercy74
Mercy Messianic Judaism
Let's carefully examine these scriptures, "the first shall be last, the last shall be first". (Matthew 19:30, Mark 10:31) the Son of man is promised to sit on his throne, 12 apostles sit on 12 thrones judging Israel, all those who follow Yeshua will be rewarded or blessed. However it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 20:16) all workers paid the same wage, the workers hired last paid first workers hired first paid last; wages of sin is death. (Luke 13:30) we are told to enter through the narrow door, all others will be thrown out. (Matthew 22:14) the marriage banquet "many are called, few are chosen"; the chosen one in the parable was not properly dressed and was thrown out! Perishable must clothe itself with imperishable, mortality with immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53) After this, death is swallowed up in victory.
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chunkofcoal
Messianic Christian
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chunkofcoal
Messianic Christian
Since to 'taste death' is written about in Judaism, it would be better to read about it in Jewish writings. I did a quick read about it and would rather think about life.
Are you saying everyone has to die for their sin? What about Yeshua dying for our sins? What about this?:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
And if "After every man has received his just payment for his sin which is death, "death has been swallowed up in victory" does that mean at some point people have to stop reproducing? Or that everyone dies off?
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chunkofcoal
Messianic Christian
Interesting, but I was simply asking if everyone here believes people die and stay dead until the resurrection.
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