World Population

RC Tent

Active Member
Jan 28, 2019
218
20
54
South
✟20,500.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Odd then, that biologists and geneticists overwhelmingly think their work supports evolutionary theory. Maybe they know things that you don't?

Unless of course NobleMouse knows things that they don't.


Evolution never produces an entirely new species (animals produce entirely new living organisms all the time; it's called "reproduction") Evolution always modifies something already there to make new traits. This is why there are so many transitionals in the fossil record.

Now surely if someone already believed that evolution was the explanation for the diversity of life, and was familiar with the concept, then they would see every life form or evidence of one in the form of a fossil as a "transitional form"? That is what life forms are in accordance with the theory.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,442
2,800
Hartford, Connecticut
✟295,968.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"Yes, it is a policy of "I shall believe that evolution is truth unless you produce this particular thing specified thing to disprove it."

If evolution were not true, you would think it would be easy to find a mammal before the Carboniferous, a reptile before the devonian, a bird before the Triassic, or an amphibian before the devonian, or a fish before the Cambrian.

Or the first fish post dating the first tetrapodomorph fish, the first tetrapodomorph fish post dating the first tetrapod, the first tetrapod post dating the first reptile, the first reptile post dating the first bird, or the first reptile post dating the first mammal.

But none of the above are true.


Why would it not be if not that the succession were a product of common descent?

Instead what we have is someone saying that there are two animals with tetrapod traits, both in the early to mid devonian, both post dating tetrapodomorph fish, both post dating fish, both predating reptiles and both pre dating all known species of amphibian.

What we are looking at, a tetrapodomorph and what may be a tetrapod, both being right where evolution suggests that they should be. Which one will shake out as more significant to the fossil succession? Time will tell.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,442
2,800
Hartford, Connecticut
✟295,968.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Now surely if someone already believed that evolution was the explanation for the diversity of life, and was familiar with the concept, then they would see every life form or evidence of one in the form of a fossil as a "transitional form"? That is what life forms are in accordance with the theory.

Fossils could hypothetically be found in any order and randomly in any locations around earth. But they aren't. In the case of tiktaalik and the Polish tracks, both post date fish and early tetrapodomorph fish (their ancestor). Both also pre date reptiles, mammals and birds (their descendents).

In the case of reptiles, all know reptile fossils post date amphibians (their ancestors) and pre date birds and mammals (their descendents). In the case of birds and mammals, no bird or mammal pre dates reptiles, amphibians or fish.

And between each group, their are fossils that share traits of what came before, and what came after them. So before tetrapods appeared, there were with with tetrapod traits. Before reptiles appeared, there were amphibians with reptile traits. Before birds appeared, there were reptiles with bird like traits, and before mammals appeared, there were reptiles with mammal-like traits.

And no abnormal crossovers have ever been found. No birds with mammal-like traits, no fish with bird-like traits or amphibians with mammal-like traits. Etc.

All of the above present ways in which the theory of evolution could be refuted.

All you have to do is find an animal in some formation that predates it's ancestral group. It shouldn't be hard if evolution were not true.

And I'll just point out that no other explanation has been provided for this order of fossils, aside from the logical conclusion of common descent.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,442
2,800
Hartford, Connecticut
✟295,968.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
""well on the time scale involved, that is a tiny error".

And no, nobody considers the presence of the Polish tracks an error. They too post date tetrapodomorph fish and pre date tetrapods. Which is a very very fine window in time where the theory suggests that they should be. It means that in the polish tracks are found in what is <1% of the geologic column, precisely where evolution suggests they should be.

It just so happens that tiktaalik, another tetrapodomorph, is also found within that <1%, so we have to determine how early, within that 1%, certain tetrapod qualities came to be.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,153
11,417
76
✟367,382.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Barbarian observes:
Odd then, that biologists and geneticists overwhelmingly think their work supports evolutionary theory. Maybe they know things that you don't?

Unless of course NobleMouse knows things that they don't.

He seems completely unaware of the evidence. And since many biologists are theists, mostly Christians, Jews, and Muslims, they are also aware of God and His hand in creation. They just know a lot more of the details, than Mouse does.

(Mouse imagines evolution means that "entirely new organisms" are produced)

Evolution never produces an entirely new species (animals produce entirely new living organisms all the time; it's called "reproduction") Evolution always modifies something already there to make new traits. This is why there are so many transitionals in the fossil record.

Now surely if someone already believed that evolution was the explanation for the diversity of life, and was familiar with the concept, then they would see every life form or evidence of one in the form of a fossil as a "transitional form"?

Every life form, no. Because similarity doesn't necessarily mean descent. That is why homology is so important. Bats and birds are superficially very much alike. But if you look at the details, it becomes clear that they are not very closely related. Likewise dolphins and sharks.

After DNA structure was worked out, all of those evolutionary transistions could be back-checked by seeing how closely the were genetically. Turns out, it confirmed the phylogenies to a very high precision. There were a few surprises. Turns out, Old World vultures and New World vultures are not very closely related. They are convergent, but one is closer to raptors and one is closer to storks.

[quote[That is what life forms are in accordance with the theory.[/QUOTE]

Well, not quite. This is why litopterns aren't classified with horses:

tumblr_n6qvahoYBH1spmwbxo1_r1_400.jpg

They looked like horses. But they evolved in South America, and are different in all the details.
 
Upvote 0

RC Tent

Active Member
Jan 28, 2019
218
20
54
South
✟20,500.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"Yes, it is a policy of "I shall believe that evolution is truth unless you produce this particular thing specified thing to disprove it."

If evolution were not true, you would think it would be easy to find a mammal before the Carboniferous, a reptile before the devonian, a bird before the Triassic, or an amphibian before the devonian, or a fish before the Cambrian.

Really? Why would this be? What alternative explanation for the fossils do you have in mind that leads to these predictions?
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,442
2,800
Hartford, Connecticut
✟295,968.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Really? Why would this be? What alternative explanation for the fossils do you have in mind that leads to these predictions?

Well, the common alternative discussed in YEC camps, is the suggestion of fossils deposited by a global flood.

Which of course would not sort fossils by genetic relatedness, as flood waters would have no means of doing so. In which case, such a find ought to be easily "discoverable".
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,442
2,800
Hartford, Connecticut
✟295,968.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"Now surely if someone already believed that evolution was the explanation for the diversity of life, and was familiar with the concept, then they would see every life form or evidence of one in the form of a fossil as a "transitional form"?"

As a geologist, I was actually aware of the fossil succession and transitional fossils, before I was aware of biological evolution as a means of producing the succession.

An understanding of the fossil succession does not need biological evolution to precede it. Because they originate from independent fields of study.

It just so happens that both paleontologists and biologist happen to be seeing an identical succession in both fossils and DNA.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Barbarian
Upvote 0

RC Tent

Active Member
Jan 28, 2019
218
20
54
South
✟20,500.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He seems completely unaware of the evidence.

Any creationist would seem that way to you because you are convinced of evolution, you have therefore found the evidence compelling, there is no separation in your experience of living, between seeing the evidence and believing the theory. Thus, anyone who does not believe the theory would seem to you to be unaware of the evidence.

(Mouse imagines evolution means that "entirely new organisms" are produced)

I am under the impression that creationists believe that entirely new organisms most certainly can be produced, they just believe that God is the means by which that happens.

It's quite clear to me that evolution is the theory under which only tiny little changes happen at a time and therefore the very changes that you are speaking of do indeed happen - but with tens of millions of years between one organism and the "entirely new one" it eventually became.

Every life form, no. Because similarity doesn't necessarily mean descent.

I don't mean that I think any life form might be transient between any other two, but that every living thing is a step in the process of change through time. "Transient fossils" are regarded as important visible evidence of the process, they are not the only animals regarding which the concept of change through time applies.

I am basically saying that if evolution happened, it is still is happening.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,153
11,417
76
✟367,382.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
No, it is not by methodology that it is limited to the physical world.

Yep, it's by methodology. Science can only deal with the physical. It collects evidence and thereby tests hypotheses.

God's existence can be observed,

Not by any test we can devise. That's what St. Paul meant by "invisible things, clearly seen."

Romans 1:19 Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

They are invisible (not physically observed) but clearly seen because God made it manifest to men.

and the possibility (for those who wish to explore it) can be subjected to experiment...

Show us that. The supernatural is beyond nature, and science is limited by its methods to the physical world. Science can't go there, but scientists can.

science does not explore the existence of non-physical supernatural things by definition,

Can't, by its very methodology.

that is what makes such research unscientific.

Here's the problem; science has been so spectacularly successful at understanding the physical world, laymen often think of it as magical. It's O.K., even necessary to be unscientific in many cases. I am often unscientific. I couldn't approach God otherwise.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,153
11,417
76
✟367,382.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Any creationist would seem that way to you because you are convinced of evolution, you have therefore found the evidence compelling, there is no separation in your experience of living, between seeing the evidence and believing the theory. Thus, anyone who does not believe the theory would seem to you to be unaware of the evidence.

No. For example, Kurt Wise is a YE creationist, who happens to also have a doctorate in paleontology. So he knows what the evidence is, and admits that the many transitional series in the fossil record are "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory."
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j09_2/j09_2_216-222.pdf

He merely prefers his understanding of Genesis, and expresses hope that in the future, there will be an adequate creationist explanation for this evidence.

So not anyone. Just anyone who was unaware of the evidence.

I am under the impression that creationists believe that entirely new organisms most certainly can be produced,

It's called "reproduction" and we see it everwhere. There is no evidence for entirely new taxa being created, however; as the fossil record indicates, it's always a modification of something that was there before.

they just believe that God is the means by which that happens.

So do those of us who acknowledge the fact of evolution; the difference is, they don't approve of the way He does it.

It's quite clear to me that evolution is the theory under which only tiny little changes happen at a time

Sometimes, it can be very great changes. Since developmental genes control pacing and coordination of things, a change in these can produce more drastic changes. Since those are generally unfavorable, it's only rarely that such jumps can happen, but it probably is why there are vertebrates. Interesting
evidence, if you'd like to hear it.

and therefore the very changes that you are speaking of do indeed happen - but with tens of millions of years between one organism and the "entirely new one" it eventually became.

Tens of millions of years wouldn't be enough for an entirely new species. We aren't entirely different than fish.

I don't mean that I think any life form might be transient between any other two, but that every living thing is a step in the process of change through time.

"Transient fossils" are regarded as important visible evidence of the process, they are not the only animals regarding which the concept of change through time applies.

They are called "transitional", and of course, evolution occurs within species as well. It is, as you suggest, a change in allele frequencies in a population over time.

I am basically saying that if evolution happened, it is still is happening.

Observably so. We even see speciation every now and then.
 
Upvote 0

NobleMouse

We have nothing, if not belief in the Lord
Sep 19, 2017
662
230
47
Mid West
✟47,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Link to where something says that please? Do we know how many scientists have concluded this?
Sorry I overlooked this, and wanted to circle back around. My statement was admittedly a generalization. What I did was look at Wikipedia:

Tiktaalik - Wikipedia

I associate wikipedia with generally having a secular view (as any references to creation/creationists are critical in nature), and on this, I saw Tiktaalik was referenced as a fish.

And while I suspected this would be the case, I also confirmed a creation site regarding Tiktaalik:

Did Fish Learn to Walk?

From a quick check of the two different world views, I concluded that this was a satisfactory representation that "many" scientists consider Tiktaalik to be a fish.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,153
11,417
76
✟367,382.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
The creationist site has a lot of misinformation. First, scientists do not say that Tiktaatlik was walking on land. The connections between the legs and spine were not robust enough to support it on land. It moved about on the bottoms of ponds.

There are other transitionals that could walk on land, however. And of course Tiktallik was a fish. It's just a fish with legs. Which confirms evolutionary theory.

As far as the claim that fish never walked on land, that's just foolish. At least two species do that, today. One of them climbs trees.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jadis40
Upvote 0

NobleMouse

We have nothing, if not belief in the Lord
Sep 19, 2017
662
230
47
Mid West
✟47,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Last comments I can really make regarding Tiktaalik and transitional fossils:

1. It is not illogical to suppose that morphology is an indication of evolution.
2. It is not illogical to suppose that the position of fossils in the fossil record is an indication of evolution.

In the case of Tiktaalik (or we might even consider Archaeopteryx, Pakicetus, or Pezosiren portelli... any of the more widely famed 'transitional fossils), points 1 and 2 are great examples of corroborating evidence to the claim (the claim is "macro" evolution... the arrival of new and drastically different life forms). But are these claims enough? They might certainly have been enough 100 years ago.

Today; however, technology has been advanced forward and [relatively] simplistic assumptions like points 1 and 2 do not really prove evolution in and of themselves. To find out if points 1 and 2 mean what they are claimed to mean, scientists need to be able to go under the hood and understand the 'drive system' of evolution. Since the 1950's this has come more into light with the discovery of DNA.

Since this discovery, scientists have sought to prove that in fact this drive system can and does result in evolution. This has in fact been accomplished. Evolution has been proven to occur at the deepest levels of understanding the effects of random mutations with natural selection can produce change. This; however, has also confirmed the doubts of Darwin from more than 150 years ago.

Darwin had doubt about evolution because the fossil record (what was known at the time), did not corroborate the slow, gradualistic change that would have occurred if evolution were true. Over time this led to the development of the artifact hypothesis--that the fossil record was incomplete or scientists just had not yet discovered enough about the fossil record. With more than 150 years having passed since then, it really can no longer be a valid claim to say scientists haven't tried hard enough--the fossils to fill in all the blanks just are not there... and the more that is discovered just continues to support the abrupt appearance of complex life forms (a more recent example are fossil discoveries from the Cambrian layer in China). Further, the Cambrian explosion is not the only "explosion" - there are some 17 or so abrupt appearances of new and distinct life forms throughout the record. This fits exactly with the video I provided early on of Kurt Wise where the almost exclusive pattern of the fossil record is: abrupt appearance --> stasis --> sudden disappearance/extinction.

Now it would be one thing to question the legitimacy of a gap as somehow working against evolution if it affected a small portion or specific area of the record, but the gaps are everywhere, every phylum, class, order, family, etc... has major, unfilled, unexplained gaps - literally everything is affected. One would expect that of the 10^40 living creatures that are estimated to have ever existed, there should still be many good cases where literally thousands or tens of thousands of sequential fossils would show the fine/gradual progression of one major group to another, but there aren't.

Now if the response to this is, "So what NobleMouse, the arguments here don't prove that evolution didn't happen." Well then let's go back under the hood, and the work that has been done by scientists in the creation / ID / non-religious camps. The creation and ID camps for sure, and even some from the non-religious have concluded that there is no evidence that random mutation and natural selection produce new information on the order that produces anything other than the subtle variations that are observable in nature and demonstrable through experimentation. This is real. This is why leading biological scientists had met at the Royal Society in London calling for new mechanisms to support evolution--the claimed 'drive system' is broken. In order for a transitional fossil to truly represent an evolutionary link, the drive system under the hood has to be working, and it is not.

In closing, points 1 and 2... things like morphology and placement of a fossil in the geological column are only made valid if there is an underlying system that produces the effect or "symptom" that results in a truly transitional fossil. Again, the underlying system will produce subtle changes, even some more significant light domestic vs wild cats... but they all remain cats - the underlying system (DNA/mutations/natural selection) is incapable of producing something distinctly different like an amphibian, a fish, or a bird... it will only produce cats from cats. Ignoring this just results in circular reasoning like: "evolution is true because there are transitional fossils and there are transitional fossils because evolution is occurring". Nowhere is evolution actually confirmed by this reasoning, and where it could be confirmed (studying the effect of random mutations and natural selection acting upon DNA) positively shows that the scale of new information needed is never produced by a series of 'happy accidents' as Meyer has said, but instead is requires an intelligent agent (which is God) to produce the new information.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,153
11,417
76
✟367,382.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Last comments I can really make regarding Tiktaalik and transitional fossils:

1. It is not illogical to suppose that morphology is an indication of evolution.

One cannot simply take morphology as an indicator. That would indicate thylacines were more closely related to wolves than to kangaroos. Rather, one has to look for homologies, and if possible, get genetic data to support it.

2. It is not illogical to suppose that the position of fossils in the fossil record is an indication of evolution.

It is, as YE creationist Kurt Wise says, "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory."

In the case of Tiktaalik (or we might even consider Archaeopteryx, Pakicetus, or Pezosiren portelli... any of the more widely famed 'transitional fossils), points 1 and 2 are great examples of corroborating evidence to the claim (the claim is "macro" evolution... the arrival of new and drastically different life forms).

But they aren't drastically different. The very existence of those transitional series shows rather a history of relatively small changes. For example, the movement of the blowhole in whales shows a history of gradual changes.

0f8eca1b2a0d9a288c5a6903c1a232dfb1b79d2e.gif



But are these claims enough? They might certainly have been enough 100 years ago.

Today; however, technology has been advanced forward and [relatively] simplistic assumptions like points 1 and 2 do not really prove evolution in and of themselves.

Scientists don't really use mere morphology. Homologies (like bones of flippers, legs, and wings in mammals) are much more reliable. Which is why scientists use them, rather than "morphology."

To find out if points 1 and 2 mean what they are claimed to mean, scientists need to be able to go under the hood and understand the 'drive system' of evolution. Since the 1950's this has come more into light with the discovery of DNA.

Good point. When the function and structure of DNA was discovered, scientists realized that it could be used to test conclusions made on homology and paleontological data. It turned out that DNA analyses gave the same phylogenies for evolution that other data did, to a very good precision. It verified earlier work.

Since this discovery, scientists have sought to prove that in fact this drive system can and does result in evolution.

Darwin had doubt about evolution because the fossil record (what was known at the time), did not corroborate the slow, gradualistic change that would have occurred if evolution were true.

No. He concluded that the fossil record in his time was very incomplete,and predicted that as time went on, more and more of the fossil record would confirm his theory. His prediction has been verified.

In my lifetime, there have been many, many gaps in fossil record filled in:
Whales with legs.
Dinosaurs with feathers
Transitionals between humans and other apes
Snakes with legs
Transitionals between cockroaches and termites
Transistionals between wasps and ants
Transistionals between salamanders and frogs
Transitionals between turtles and other anapsids
(very long list)

Over time this led to the development of the artifact hypothesis--that the fossil record was incomplete or scientists just had not yet discovered enough about the fossil record.

In the past 150 years since then, most of the gaps between major forms now have transitional forms. If you doubt this, name any two major groups, said to be evolutionarily connected, and we'll see if I can find a transitional. Which two would you like?

Further, the Cambrian explosion is not the only "explosion" - there are some 17 or so abrupt appearances of new and distinct life forms throughout the record.

That story no longer works, since we have numerous examples of complex organisms in the Precambrian, some of which show the supposedly "sudden" forms of the Cambrian. Recently, scientists were able to confirm at least some of them are animals, demonstrating that the Ediacaran fauna let to the Cambrian radiation of forms, which appears to be mostly due to the evolution of fully-covering exoskeletons.

Now if the response to this is, "So what NobleMouse, the arguments here don't prove that evolution didn't happen." Well then let's go back under the hood, and the work that has been done by scientists in the creation / ID / non-religious camps.

As was determined by federal courts, ID is a religious doctrine, said by the people who invented it, to have the objective of proving God. The infamous "wedge document", published by the Discovery Institute admits this. However, here's what a prominent fellow of the Institute says:

t is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science--that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes. This is an assumption which is entirely opposed to that of the so-called "special creationist school." According to special creationism, living organisms are not natural forms, whose origin and design were built into the laws of nature from the beginning, but rather contingent forms analogous in essence to human artifacts, the result of a series of supernatural acts, involving God's direct intervention in the course of nature, each of which involved the suspension of natural law. Contrary to the creationist position, the whole argument presented here is critically dependent on the presumption of the unbroken continuity of the organic world--that is, on the reality of organic evolution and on the presumption that all living organisms on earth are natural forms in the profoundest sense of the word, no less natural than salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies.

In large measure, therefore, the teleological argument presented here and the special creationist worldview are mutually exclusive accounts of the world. In the last analysis, evidence for one is evidence against the other. Put simply, the more convincing is the evidence for believing that the world is prefabricated to the end of life, that the design is built into the laws of nature, the less credible becomes the special creationist worldview.

Michael Denton, Nature's Destiny

Are you sure that this supports your beliefs?

The creation and ID camps for sure, and even some from the non-religious have concluded that there is no evidence that random mutation and natural selection produce new information on the order that produces anything other than the subtle variations that are observable in nature and demonstrable through experimentation.

Perhaps you don't know how information is calculated. In fact, every new mutation adds information to a population. But information does not have to increase in evolution. Sometimes, it decreases, and almost always does during speciation, which usually involves isolation of a smaller and less genetically-diverse sub-population.

This is why leading biological scientists had met at the Royal Society in London calling for new mechanisms to support evolution--the claimed 'drive system' is broken.

Most of those "new mechanisms", such as niche construction, were already known in Darwin's time. His last research was on the way that earthworms affect their environment. The argument was never whether or not those were part of the random mutation/natural selection process; it was over their relative importance.

Evolutionary theory has greatly expanded our understanding of the processes by which new species and higher taxa evolve. Indeed, most creationist organizations now admit the fact of speciation. Some admit the evolution of new genera and familes of organisms as well.

And remember, "information" doesn't have to increase in such diversity; indeed, it often decreases during speciation. This is how "founder effect" is observed to function.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,442
2,800
Hartford, Connecticut
✟295,968.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Of the comments above, I would tend to agree that tiktaalik isnt "new and drastically different" from it's predicesors. While it does have features of terrestrial vertebrates, it also holds traits of prior fish as well.

Aside from that, as we have discussed many times, the Cambrian explosions spans tens of millions of years, with complex life predating the Cambrian explosion (which Darwin of course wasn't aware of at the time). An explosion in shelled life is not the same as an explosion of all life either.

Just seems like the same old parroted falsehoods.

Also, while there are other relatively abrupt appearances of life that span tens of millions of years, these appearances tend to occur after Mass extinctions, in which survivors of extinction fill niches of the planet. An example being mammalian radiation that unfolded over millions of years after the extinction of the dinosaurs.

And nothing in biology suggests that such expanses could not occur over tens of millions of years.

Otherwise, thank you for the kind words Mouse.
 
Upvote 0

NobleMouse

We have nothing, if not belief in the Lord
Sep 19, 2017
662
230
47
Mid West
✟47,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Of the comments above, I would tend to agree that tiktaalik isnt "new and drastically different" from it's predicesors. While it does have features of terrestrial vertebrates, it also holds traits of prior fish as well.

Aside from that, as we have discussed many times, the Cambrian explosions spans tens of millions of years, with complex life predating the Cambrian explosion (which Darwin of course wasn't aware of at the time). An explosion in shelled life is not the same as an explosion of all life either.

Just seems like the same old parroted falsehoods.

Also, while there are other relatively abrupt appearances of life that span tens of millions of years, these appearances tend to occur after Mass extinctions, in which survivors of extinction fill niches of the planet. An example being mammalian radiation that unfolded over millions of years after the extinction of the dinosaurs.

And nothing in biology suggests that such expanses could not occur over tens of millions of years.

Otherwise, thank you for the kind words Mouse.
If I am understanding correctly then, you are holding to the missing artifact hypothesis, that there were repeated extinctions and every single time there is no apparent gradual development ("evolution") of the survivors, and no comments regarding the research done confirming that random mutations + natural selection does not produce the information needed give any credence to the idea of all life coming from a universal common ancestor, as well as precluding the possibility of life mysteriously arising after extinctions in the first place.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,442
2,800
Hartford, Connecticut
✟295,968.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If I am understanding correctly then, you are holding to the missing artifact hypothesis, that there were repeated extinctions and every single time there is no apparent gradual development ("evolution") of the survivors, and no comments regarding the research done confirming that random mutations + natural selection does not produce the information needed give any credence to the idea of all life coming from a universal common ancestor, as well as precluding the possibility of life mysteriously arising after extinctions in the first place.

Sorry, not sure what you mean. The question of if there are transitionals is a different question from if there is a radiation.

Why don't you give an example of a sudden appearance of life forms (you mentioned there being perhaps 17 occasions), and we can examine the questions of what transitionals are or are not present with respect to the radiation.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,153
11,417
76
✟367,382.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
If I am understanding correctly then, you are holding to the missing artifact hypothesis, that there were repeated extinctions and every single time there is no apparent gradual development ("evolution") of the survivors,

Well, let's take a look...

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation - of stratomorphic intermediate species - include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation - of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates - has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacdontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation - of stratomorphic series - has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
YE Creationist Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms
(my emphasis)

And these are just a small sample of the many other series that show exactly what you're insisting that they don't.

and no comments regarding the research done confirming that random mutations + natural selection does not produce the information needed

No, that's wrong, too. We know that most speciation occurs when a relatively small (and therefore less diverse) population with lower genetic information, is isolated. You have it exactly backwards.

And evolution doesn't need "information" to increase. Often a new species will have less information, because of the lower genetic diversity of the population isolate.

It might be useful for you to learn how information is calculated for populations of organisms.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums