Truths of the New Testament

Douggg · Feb 17, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Either Paul, Peter, and James are misinterpreting Ezekiel 39:21-29, or you are.

It not either/or any of us. You, and all who claim that the church is Israel and vice versa, are.

BABerean2 said:
Christ said the Old Testament books written by Moses and "all" the prophets are about Him.

Does that include the prophet Ezekiel?

Of course Ezekiel is a prophet. Who is here is denying that?

The issue is that you are not believing what Jesus said in Ezekiel 39:21-29. It is an emotional realization for you that a doctrine you have been promoting all these years is wrong. And you are having a hard time coming to grips with.

So you are throwing all the red herring verses and videos, rather than accept the reality of what Jesus is saying in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Douggg · Feb 17, 2019

keras said:
Your continued pushing for the Jews to accept a false Messiah, despite there not being any scripture for it, just shows your intransigence and inability to consider the truth of prophecy.

You are playing around with words calling the person a false messiah - rather than the Antichrist, which is only one person, and who cannot be the Antichrist without being anointed the King of Israel.

What it is showing is that you don't accept Mark 15:32 "Christ the King of Israel" and that the Jews rejected Jesus as the King of Israel.

Nor do you accept 1John2:18 that Antichrist will come.

"Anti" instead of and against - Jesus, the Christ, the rightful King of Israel.

Marilyn C · Feb 17, 2019

keras said:
Context, dear Marilyn. You get a fail for making a single verse mean something that contradicts the context.
Galatians 6:14-16 is all about Christians being the new creation of God's people....... All who take this principal for their guide; peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God. REBible

Hi keras,

The context of the letter to the Galatians, is regarding the Body of Christ AND Israel.

Marilyn.

Marilyn C · Feb 17, 2019

jgr said:
Hi Marilyn,

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

c. it joins to partitive words the general notion; so that it is equivalent to and in general, and in a word, in short: ὁ Πέτρος καί οἱ ἀπόστολοι, Acts 5:29; οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς (καί οἱ πρεσβύτεροι Rec.) καί τό συνέδριον ὅλον, Matthew 26:59; καί δικαιώμασι σαρκός, Hebrews 9:10 Rec. Tr brackets WHmarginal reading; καί ἐπί τόν Ἰσραήλ τοῦ Θεοῦ, Galatians 6:16, and often in Greek writings;

The "Israel of God" is the "in general, in a word, in short" summary expression encompassing the whole of the verse.

Hi jgr,

The whole context of the letter to the Galatians is about Israel and the Body of Christ - two groups.

Marilyn.

jgr · Feb 17, 2019

Marilyn C said:
Hi jgr,

The whole context of the letter to the Galatians is about Israel and the Body of Christ - two groups.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

It's about how they are made one in Christ.

Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is one reference to Israel in the entire book.

It is to the Israel of God -- those made one in Christ, the Body of Christ, the Church.

There are nine references to the Galatian "brethren" -- the Israel of God, those made one in Christ, the Body of Christ, the Church.

jgr · Feb 17, 2019

Douggg said:
It not either/or any of us. You, and all who claim that the church is Israel and vice versa, are.

Paul's claim:

Galatians 6
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

He was referring to the Church.

keras · Feb 17, 2019

Galatians 6:14-16 But far be it from me to boast, save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ…….all that counts is new [personal] creation. All who take this principal as their guide: peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God. Revised English Bible

The proper interpretation and translation of the last phrase in Galatians 6:16 has become a matter of controversy in the past century or so. Formerly, "The Israel of God" was understood as a name for the Church. The καὶ ("and") which precedes the phrase upon the Israel of God, was understood as an explicative καὶ. This understanding of the grammar is reflected in the Revised Standard Version's Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God, and in the New International Version's: even to the Israel of God. It is not necessary, to understand the καὶ as an explicative in order to get substantially the same sense. If it be regarded as an ordinary connective καὶ, the all who take this principal, correctly refers to the individual Christians, Jewish and Gentile, and Israel of God to the same Christians, regarded collectively; being the entire messianic community."

So the rendering "and upon the Israel of God" (KJV and others) is acceptable enough, provided it is not misapplied. In any case, it is clear that in this verse Paul cannot be pronouncing a benediction upon persons who are not included in: All who keep the Christian rule….The entire argument of the epistle contradicts any idea that here in 6:16 he would give a blessing to those who are not Christians.

The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists, those who believe in a ‘rapture to heaven’, insist on maintaining a sharp distinction between "Israel" and "the Church".

They refute the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Israel of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the Church" is distinguished from "Israel" in Scripture. This major tenet of dispensationalist hermeneutics, is a false teaching.

The dispensationalist explanation of the meaning of "The Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 is contrary to Paul’s main point, in which it is said that: in Christ Jesus ... there is neither Jew nor Greek. This central idea of the epistle, is expressed in the third chapter: "you are all one in Christ Jesus ... if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring" Galatians 3:26-29

The fascination with the secular state of Israel which is so characteristic of dispensationalists today has led many of them to think that the restoration of the Jews as "God's people" has already occurred, despite the fact that their rapture has not yet happened and the Jews continue to reject Christ. Dispensationalists insist that this unbelieving Israel according to the flesh must be blessed by everyone. But of course this premise is totally wrong, because there is no blessing for anyone who rejects Christ.

The attempt to limit the meaning of "Israel of God" to the carnal sons of Judah betrays a fundamentally wrong approach to biblical interpretation, and to New Testament theology in particular.

Douggg · Feb 17, 2019

jgr said:
Paul's claim:

Galatians 6
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

He was referring to the Church.

Galatians 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

[Paul was saying that Jews, wanted gentile believers in Jesus, to be circumcised because they had a false pride notion about being a Jew.]

14 But God forbid that I should glory [this is the false pride thing that Paul was referring to above], save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

[Paul, a Jew, is rebuffing that notion]

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Paul is saying the rule is that neither circumcision or uncircumcision is relevant to being right with God. Them who go by that rule - peace be up on them. And peace up the Jews who believe on Jesus, as the Israel of God.

It is not saying that the church is the Israel of God.

jgr · Feb 17, 2019

Douggg said:
Paul is saying the rule is that neither circumcision or uncircumcision is relevant to being right with God. Them who go by that rule - peace be up on them. And peace up the Jews who believe on Jesus, as the Israel of God.

Galatians 6
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision (referring to the Jews) availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision (referring to the Gentiles), but a new creature (both together as one new creature in Christ, and thus in His Church).

16 And as many as walk according to this rule (both Jews and Gentiles together as one new creature in Christ, and thus in His Church), peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

and = Greek kai

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

c. it joins to partitive words the general notion; so that it is equivalent to and in general, and in a word, in short: ὁ Πέτρος καί οἱ ἀπόστολοι, Acts 5:29; οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς (καί οἱ πρεσβύτεροι Rec.) καί τό συνέδριον ὅλον, Matthew 26:59; καί δικαιώμασι σαρκός, Hebrews 9:10 Rec. Tr brackets WHmarginal reading; καί ἐπί τόν Ἰσραήλ τοῦ Θεοῦ, Galatians 6:16, and often in Greek writings;

The "Israel of God" is the "in general, in a word, in short" summary expression encompassing the whole of the verse, and referring to the Church.

keras · Feb 17, 2019

Douggg said:
It is not saying that the church is the Israel of God.

This belief, of a separate Church and Israel, with separate destinies, is very strongly ingrained into many Christians minds.
That it is wrong can be easily proved, but because it means a mindset change and they must have a Jewish people on earth while they go to heaven in a 'rapture', then they simply reject the truth, without any scriptural rebuttal.

Douggg and all the others here that refuse to believe the proofs of every faithful Christian being the Israelites of God; We all believe and trust in the Lord Jesus. He is the Olive Tree of life, which we as Gentiles are grafted into, the Tree that the House of Judah were cut off from. Romans 11:17
If they abide not in unbelief, [become Christian] they can be grafted back again. Romans 11:23-24 NOW is their chance to do that.

Jesus is the Tree trunk of His people, He is the true Vine, the Israel of God and we are the branches and the fruit of the vine.
Isaiah 5:7 The vineyard of the Lord is the House of Israel, Judah is the plant He cherished. He looked for justice but found none and instead of righteousness, saw distress.
The verse in 2 Corinthians 1:20 proves that we Christians are the inheritors of all the Promises of God to His people, now every born again Christian from every tribe of Israel, every race, nation and language.

It would be better for those who cannot change their beliefs to keep out of this issue, as any attempts to make out the Jewish State of Israel to be specially favored of God, is false teaching and may result is some loss for you.
Read and understand; Romans 2:11, Matthew 8:11-12

Douggg · Feb 17, 2019

keras said:
This belief, of a separate Church and Israel, with separate destinies, is very strongly ingrained into many Christians minds.

Are you talking about eternity or the near term?

Douggg · Feb 17, 2019

keras said:
It would be better for those who cannot change their beliefs to keep out of this issue, as any attempts to make out the Jewish State of Israel to be specially favored of God, is false teaching and may result is some loss for you.

All anyone has to do is read Ezekiel 39:21-29 to know that the house of Israel is not the church and vice versa.

Marilyn C · Feb 17, 2019

jgr said:
Hi Marilyn,

It's about how they are made one in Christ.

Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is one reference to Israel in the entire book.

It is to the Israel of God -- those made one in Christ, the Body of Christ, the Church.

There are nine references to the Galatian "brethren" -- the Israel of God, those made one in Christ, the Body of Christ, the Church.

Hi jgr,

You are basing your belief on that one scripture?

Marilyn.

keras · Feb 18, 2019

Douggg said:
Are you talking about eternity or the near term?

From Adam until Eternity; ONE people of God. Always His faithful believers.
Never been more and never will be less. You add another as a false teaching.

Douggg said:
All anyone has to do is read Ezekiel 39:21-29 to know that the house of Israel is not the church and vice versa.

I read those verses and understand that since Jesus came all who are born again in Him are His Overcomers, literally His Israelites.
Can't you see that in Jesus all the Promises of God are fulfilled and we Christians are the inheritors of them all thru Him.

Marilyn C said:
You are basing your belief on that one scripture?

Why question our beliefs, for which we have ample scriptural support.
Prove your own or forever hold your peace.

jgr · Feb 18, 2019

Marilyn C said:
Hi jgr,

You are basing your belief on that one scripture?

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

Ten of them.

Another couple:

Galatians 3
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Faith in Christ Jesus united the Galatians as one children of God.

Galatians 4
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The Jerusalem which is above united the Galatians under one mother.

Which Scripture(s) are you basing your claim of division into two groups, rather than unity in one group, on?

Douggg · Feb 18, 2019

keras said:
rom Adam until Eternity; ONE people of God. Always His faithful believers.
Never been more and never will be less. You add another as a false teaching.

I was asking about the separate destinies you are referring to? Separate destinies for the near term? Or separate destinies for eternity?

You had written....
"This belief, of a separate Church and Israel, with separate destinies, is very strongly ingrained into many Christians minds."

Douggg · Feb 18, 2019

keras said:
I read those verses and understand that since Jesus came all who are born again in Him are His Overcomers, literally His Israelites.

whoa, whoa, wait a minute. In Ezekiel 39:21-39, recounting right after Armageddon, Jesus is saying of the house of Israel, that He turned his face from them, because they trespassed against Him. And they went into captivity. That is not talking about the church.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

BABerean2 · Feb 18, 2019

Douggg said:
All anyone has to do is read Ezekiel 39:21-29 to know that the house of Israel is not the church and vice versa.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

.

Douggg · Feb 18, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Following Armageddon, Jesus Himself is recounting in the text...

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
_____________________________________________________

The church is not Jacob, not the house of Israel and vice versa. Anyone can see that by reading Ezekiel 39:21-29.

keras · Feb 18, 2019

Douggg said:
I was asking about the separate destinies you are referring to? Separate destinies for the near term? Or separate destinies for eternity?

You had written....
"This belief, of a separate Church and Israel, with separate destinies, is very strongly ingrained into many Christians minds."

There are separate destinies for each nation on earth. For the Jewish State of Israel it is virtual annihilation. Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18 Only a remnant will be saved, Isaiah 6:11-15, Romans 9:27
The idea of a separate Redemption is another belief, born from the 'rapture to heaven' theory. Not scriptural and will not happen.

Douggg said:
The church is not Jacob, not the house of Israel and vice versa. Anyone can see that by reading Ezekiel 39:21-29.

They weren't when the OT was Written, but since Jesus came and Overcame Satan at the Cross, He is the true Israel, Jacob was the forerunner.
So we who follow Jesus are the House of Israel with Jesus as our Head.

Bible ABC really, but hard for anyone who wants God to take them to heaven; anytime would do, because not having Two Peoples, Two Promises, makes a rapture impossible. Tough!

Truths of the New Testament

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Pre-tribulation.

Pre-tribulation.

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Pre-tribulation.

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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