What is the significance of infant baptism?

BABerean2 said:

Based on Galatians 3:16-29, I am Abraham's seed and inherit the promise through Jesus Christ, not through one of my grandparents.

If that is being "stiff necked", then give me a sign and I will proudly wear it.

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1 Cor.1:22-23,
Ex.32:9, and they are not the only ones.

Yoda: "I cannot teach him. The boy has no patience" Star Wars ESB.
God: "God's promises are from generation to generation" Luke.1:72, Isa.51:8,
You and Luke Skywalker: "I don't believe it"
Yoda: "So certain are you" Star Wars ESB.
Yoda: "That is why you fail" Star Wars ESB.


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YeshuaFan said:

The elect in Christ shall do that, as the triune God will make sure of it, as in Romans 8!

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Only with God's help yes, if you persevere in the faith. Otherwise? 1 Tim.6:10.
1 Tim.1:19.
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YeshuaFan said:

Based upon inference from the Person of God, and how Jesus expressed himself towards the children that came to Him!

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The children that came to him were all circumcised children of the covenant. The child he almost refused to heal was a Gentile not of the house of Isreal. Matt.15:25-28. What do you make of that?
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YeshuaFan said:

God saves by individual election, as He determines our salvation based upon His own will, not in promises made before us!

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OK lets see the scripture proof of that in triplicate. 2 Cor.1:20.
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ExTiff said:

Yoda: "So certain are you" Star Wars ESB.
Yoda: "That is why you fail" Star Wars ESB.

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Now we know the source of your Bible doctrine.

It is a work of fiction, from a man's imagination...

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BABerean2 said:

Now we know the source of your Bible doctrine.

It is a work of fiction, from a man's imagination...

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John 9:31 :So we have the "Now we knows", now do we! That's the spirit, get stuck in!
John 8:52 : He got that from the same quarter too. Luke 6:22. You don't go thus far, but you will be heading there before long if you are not careful.

Are you suggesting I am not allowed, in your opinion, to quote from any other scource than the Bible to prove you wrong? What nonsense is that? Even a fictional character like Yoda disagrees with you. Its not as if I get much Bible evidence refuting what I quote from the scriptures in return. All I seem to get is silence or "There is nothing about it in the New Testament . . . nah, nah . .", with no supporting reasoning other than that. Luke 1:20.

You'll be telling me that I have the doctrine of devils next. 1 Tim.4:1. Be careful, we are discussing God's Secret.
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ExTiff said:

Are you suggesting I am not allowed, in your opinion, to quote from any other scource than the Bible to prove you wrong? What nonsense is that? Even a fictional character like Yoda disagrees with you.

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Thomas Dickerson is not a fictional character.

No matter how long you attempt to ignore him, he reveals the truth about what you are promoting.


When will you deal with his testimony?

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YeshuaFan said:

The seed in the parable is the scriptures, especially the Gospel, and depending on what happens with us once we hear/read it determines if we are then saved or still lost!

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Agreed! The sower in the parable is Jesus and the seed is the word of God (both Jesus's spoken word and today the Bible). The hard ground represents someone with a hardened heart full of sin that hears the word of God but does not accept it.

BABerean2 said:

Thomas Dickerson is not a fictional character.

No matter how long you attempt to ignore him, he reveals the truth about what you are promoting.

When will you deal with his testimony?

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Neither was Brigham Young or Mary Baker Eddy, but that was no good reason to accept their testimony over and above that of scripture itself. I still notice you have not replied with any scripturally based refutation of Deut.30:6.

Deut.30:6. This promise, you will I hope notice, does not refer to Jesus Christ as THE seed, because if it did that would imply that Jesus Christ, (THE seed, the Messiah, God has promised to His People, in fulfillment of The Covenant, was in need of 'spiritual heart surgery' by God. Whereas we all presumably admit He, Christ, The Messiah of God, was without sin, previous to and from conception to ascension and beyond into eternity.

"15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. Deut.18.

"And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." Deut.30:6. See Matt.22:37.

This was Christ THE SEED of Abraham, who came to the seed of Abraham, to 'circumcise their hearts' but "they were stiff necked" (most of them), but not all, John.1:12 because God had promised THE SEED to them, because they were the seed of Abraham, to whom the promise was made. (Is this too complicated to understand?)

Christ Himself is THE SEED that the sower, (God), scatters broadcast, He is also the Word that is sown. We are the soil in which THE SEED either is taken away, Mark 4:15 withers Mark 4:16-18 or prospers Mark 4:20. If it prospers then that is evidence that we were circumcised of heart, if the Word does not prosper in us, then the opposite is true. John.17:23.

There must be something wrong with your interpretation of Gal.3:19, where you assume that the promise was made exclusively to Christ Himself and not to the seed of Abraham. Your whole theology is hung on the misinterpretation and misunderstanding, of just that one verse.

If then you still believe that according to Deuteronomy 30:6, Christ alone received the promise that "He would be circumcised of heart, by God", in what way was The sinless Son of God in need of (such a promise of 'circumcision of the heart'). Surely the promise is to the seed of Abraham, (that require it, they being in need of it), and therefore the promise must be to them, and we in 'the household of faith', otherwise the promise makes no sense.

Only the way I have explained it, is God entirely attributed with everything to do with our Salvation, with nothing contribted by us whatever. It is a gift of God which we either accept or reject.

Just as Gal.3:19 states when it is properly understood.

"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

i.e Until the promised SEED had finally come to the people to whom He had been promised.
Nothing could happen salvationwise, until He came.
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BABerean2 said:

Now we know the source of your Bible doctrine.

It is a work of fiction, from a man's imagination...

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Ding---Ding----Ding...…..We have a winner!!!!

Major1 said:

Ding---Ding----Ding...…..We have a winner!!!!

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Have you changed your mind about no longer commenting in this thread, or do you not keep your promises?

Here:

And Here:

And Here:

It is a good job God keeps His promise, but do you believe Him?

By all means read and learn, but please don't contribute unless you can post something more worthy of inclusion in the debate than this. Your cooperation would be much appreciated, especially since it was you who rather rudely 'promised' you would no longer participate.
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ExTiff said:

There must be something wrong with your interpretation of Gal.3:19, where you assume that the promise was made exclusively to Christ Himself and not to the seed of Abraham. Your whole theology is hung on the misinterpretation and misunderstanding, of just that one verse.

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The verse you are attempting to make reference to is found below.
No interpretation is necessary for those who can read.


Galatians 3:16

(CJB) Now the promises were made to Avraham and to his seed. It doesn't say, "and to seeds," as if to many; on the contrary, it speaks of one -- "and to your seed" -- and this "one" is the Messiah.

(ESV) Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

(Geneva) Nowe to Abraham and his seede were the promises made. Hee saith not, And to the seedes, as speaking of many: but, And to thy seede, as of one, which is Christ.

(Greek NT TR) τω δε αβρααμ ερρηθησαν αι επαγγελιαι και τω σπερματι αυτου ου λεγει και τοις σπερμασιν ως επι πολλων αλλ ως εφ ενος και τω σπερματι σου ος εστιν χριστος

(GW) The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant. Scripture doesn't say, "descendants," referring to many, but "your descendant," referring to one. That descendant is Christ.

(LITV-TSP) But the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his Seed (it does not say, And to seeds, as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," which is Christ). Gen. 12:7, 13:15; 17:7, 8; 24:7

(KJV) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

(KJV+) NowG1161 to AbrahamG11 andG2532 hisG846 seedG4690 were theG3588 promisesG1860 made.G4483 He saithG3004 not,G3756 AndG2532 to seeds,G4690 asG5613 ofG1909 many;G4183 butG235 asG5613 ofG1909 one,G1520 AndG2532 to thyG4675 seed,G4690 whichG3739 isG2076 Christ.G5547

(NKJV) Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.

(YLT) and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to thy seed,' which is Christ;

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Circumcision of the heart applies to those in the New Covenant, through their individual faith in Christ. It is not about their grandparents.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

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BABerean2 said:

The verse you are attempting to make reference to is found below.
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I already know exactly where the verse is and what it says. There is no need to repeat yourself and no call for sarcasm.

You know now exactly where Deuteronomy 30:6 is and what that says. What you are not doing is making any attempt to explain why you seem to think The Bible says that Jesus Christ was in need of The Promise, that (HE alone), would receive 'Circumcision of the Heart', in order that He would be able to "Love the Lord His God with all His heart, and all His soul, that HE mayest live."

" And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." Deut.30:6. KJV

Now I understand that you have no respect for the Bible that Jesus used, preferring only what you read in the New Testament, because that apparently is superior in your estimation, (the Old Testament being 'Old' and 'Past' and of no further use presumably, but don't you think that your "Only THE SEED Jesus Christ was promised anything", theology runs into the sand somewhat, when it seems to imply that Jesus Christ was NOT SINLESS, NOT CIRCUMCISED OF HEART, NOT GOD and NOT A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT, but in NEED OF LIFE, as you claim is promised Him by God in this verse. According to your doctrine, if the promise to Him and His seed (in Deut.30:6) was made exclusively only to HIM and not to the offspring(s) of Abraham.

Does it not occurr to you that you might be missing something somehow, when the doctrine you espouse results at Deut.30:6 in such violation either to the nature of Christ or the inspiration of the whole of scripture?

How about you answering my question concerning Deut.30:6 for once, instead of just repeating what you think Gal.3:16 means, which we all already know.

How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction?

This commentary goes some considerable way towards reconciling them, if you would care to study it.

I think we probably agree both Deut.30:6 and Gal.3:16 are 'Inspired' scripture.

When scripture seems to contradict itself there is probably something wrong with the interpretation rather than the text.

You are so obsessed with the 'single tree' of Ga.3:16 concerning The Seed and The promise to the seed, (mistakenly making that into Paul's main argument), that you are failing to see 'the whole wood' that the tree is planted in and only a part of. Gal.3:16 forms only a small but important part of Paul's argument against the Galatians retrogressive tendency towards 'Law keeping to obtain their salvation and attempting to differentiate themselves over against gentiles', instead of trusting in the atonement of Jesus Christ, (the true promised seed of Abraham). He is not deliberately making the point that nobody except Christ himself has been promised eternal life. Quite the opposite in fact, if you follow the logic of his argument.

According to Paul, since the promise of blessing had been given to Abraham and his seed 430 years before the giving of The Law, it could not be modified or annulled by the giving of The Law. Thus he makes it impossible for them to appeal to 'Law' for salvation, since salvation is linked to promise and not law, if blessing is to be obtained rather than condemnation. Paul's Messianic definition of SEED Gal.3:16 removes Jewish national boundaries as the limits of the inheritance of the Abrahamic blessing. The link Paul makes between Abraham and Christ bypasses the Mosaic law and the Jewish nation as exclusive channels for the reception of the promises to Abraham, with the result that Christ alone is the channel of the promised blessing. The focus of Gal.3:26-29 is the union of the Gentile believers with Christ. The equal status of all believers as children of God, Abraham's seed and heirs in Christ renders any attempt to gain superior status by circumcision or law observance of no value whatsoever. At the beginning and end of his argument from the Abraham story, Paul's main point is that the inclusion of Gentile believers in the people of God is based solely upon their identification with Christ. Identification by mutilation, race, sex class or creed no longer has any significance because of identification with Christ outweighing them all.

Circumcision of the heart applies to those in the New Covenant, through their individual faith in Christ. It is not about their grandparents.

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Deut.10:16
Deut.30:6
Jer.4:4
Jer.9:26
Ezek.44:7
Ezek.44:9

So all these references in the Old testament were utterly pointless, futile and unreasonable demands. Are you seriously suggesting that ALL Old Testament people were 'uncircumcised of heart' and only New Testament people are capable of being so?

You have written off all OT people as 'uncircumcised of heart', from Abraham to Malachi and all the prophets including John the Baptist and Jesus it would seem. How do you feel about that?
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ExTiff said:

How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction?

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How?

Your interpretation is wrong.

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BABerean2 said:

How?

Your interpretation is wrong.

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My interpretation of which text? Deut.30:?

"And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

or Gal.3:16?

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Paul is writing to and addressing Law bound Jewish Galatians. He is saying that their seed is Christ. "And to thy seed, ( the seed pertaining to lawbound Jewish Galatians), which is Christ". Notice: 'Which' is Christ, not who is Christ.

The mistake, it seems to me, that you are making is in failing to understand Paul's argument to the Galatians, against salvation by heredity under the Law.

The point he is making is that salvation is not hereditary by physical bloodline. It is inherited only by faith in Christ, (THE SEED sown in our hearts). That is why the heart must be circumcised. Not Christ's heart, but OUR HEARTS, Mark 4:15 whether in Old or New testament it is only those who are circumcised of heart that inherit the promise. Christ was the ultimate "Circumcised of heart' because HE had no need whatever for God to "make Him obedient." by 'circumcising His heart'. He already was 'circumcised of heart' from the foundation of the world. It was both He, (God), who both made and fulfilled the promise. He was the SEED to whom the promise was made by and to himself, God. We, the faithful, the circumcised of heart, the seed of Abraham, are the seed who are the beneficiaries of the promise in both OT and NT that God made to himself concerning us. See Gal.3:20.

John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."

Christ is here speaking as a human being, not as God, who he calls His Father.

Matt.7:21. Doing the will of The Father is being circumcised of heart and that is the promise.
Matt.11:27 God 'gives', 'the circumcised of heart to Christ', because Christ is THE SEED.
Matt.12:50 There is 'family relationship' to Christ, within the circumcised of heart, in both OT and NT.
Matt.18:14 Furthermore God wills that covenant children already have this family relationship until they sin.
Matt.21:31 Salvation is not a matter of law keeping, but a matter of the heart, whether it be circumcised or not.
Luke 10:22 It is Christ who reveals in us the knowledge of God, and it is HE that decides, not us.
John 14:21 Only those who know Christ's commands and value them, love Him. So God loves them and Christ loves them, and 'reveals Himself to them'.
John 17:24 The 'pure in heart' shall 'see' 'God'. The circumcised of heart shall see Christ in his glory.

Your interpretation is wrong.

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What might seem obvious and self explanatory to you, may be more complicated and nuanced to others, because they understand it and you don't.

Hence: "Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen." 2 Peter 3:14-18.

BABerean2 said:

Thomas Dickerson is not a fictional character.

No matter how long you attempt to ignore him, he reveals the truth about what you are promoting.

When will you deal with his testimony?

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He says "I had never been SAVED"!!!!! Wrong! Wrong, wrong.

He was always 'being saved', but himself would have none of it. Rebellion, ignorance, obstinate refusal, stiff necked uncircumcision of heart, kicking agains the goads.

And only FINALLY!!! did he give in to God who had been patiently waiting while this 'covenant breaking child' hurt himself and others by kicking against the goads and believing all sorts of nonsense regarding God's promises to His elect. Acts.26:14.

FINALLY he gave in to God and began to do God's will with a 'God circumcised heart'. Instead of trying to go his own way, under his own steam, according to his own stiff necked will.

And still he does not attribute all this loving care to God, who, from his mother's womb has been leading him to the hour of his conversion and acceptance of the truth that he IS A SINNER in need of spiritual 'heart surgery' that only Christ can perform for him.

Oh Whoopy dooo! Today I have been saved! And God had nothing to do with getting me here, my whole life long. I gave myself to Jesus, TODAY, how grateful HE and God must be. (Heavy irony and sarcasm)!

I rejoice for Thomas Dickerson, along with the angels, he was a lost coin but not a lost cause, Luke 15:7-10 Mark 13:27 but there is still much about God that Thomas Dickerson does not yet understand.
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ExTiff said:

He says "I had never been SAVED"!!!!! Wrong! Wrong, wrong.

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Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

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BABerean2 said:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

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Precisely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He had not previously TRUSTED GOD!!! Not until HE HEARD and believed and trusted THE WORD OF TRUTH. THE MESSAGE OF RECONCILIATION.

AT THAT PRECISE POINT he received the baptism which is the one baptism promised that can give LIFE. He was finally SEALED with THE HOLY SPIRIT, that he had always BEEN PROMISED by GOD from conception because GOD had probably promised a believeing, heart circumcised, spirit filled, believing parent, grand parent or even great grand parent, of his, who loved God, sought to do God's will and like Abraham actually believed God's promises and took God at His Word. God faithfully keeps His promises. It is only we who don't.

Why else does the text refer to the Holy Spirit as "that holy Spirit OF PROMISE.

born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John.1:13. As probably promised to his forefather, grand forefather or even great foregrandfather.

It is also possible that his 'baptism' in the Holy Spirit was a gracious gift from God to him personally, and involved no promises whatever to any of his forfathers. This would have been true of Gentiles coming into the originally exclusively Jewish Church, after Pentecost, from outside the covenant and the promises. God is still adding to those who are being saved in this manner as well, but not exclusively so.
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ExTiff said:

He was finally SEALED with THE HOLY SPIRIT, that he had always BEEN PROMISED by GOD from conception because GOD had probably promised a believeing, heart circumcised, spirit filled, believing parent, grand parent or even great grand parent, of his,

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Missionaries, who go into remote parts of the world, would laugh at your argument above about parents, and grandparents.

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BABerean2 said:

Missionaries, who go into remote parts of the world, would laugh at your argument above about parents, and grandparents.

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Sarah laughed because she did not believe God's promises, and neither do you. ( promise : promise : promise )
Not ( promise : promise : promise I don't believe you God.)

Gen.18:12-15. Even Abraham laughed, Gen.17:17. But God still kept His promise.

Missionaries are dealing with a similar sitution to that of St Paul. His appeal, as Apostle to the Gentiles, was to those who had never been 'children of the promise', had no spiritual heritage, but were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus [all those] who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ". Eph.2:12-13

Paul was specifically ministering to Gentiles who had no claim whatever to the promises made by God to the spiritual descendents of Israel. So too do Missionaries, (themselves often the descendents of promise), who minister to those who have no hope and are without God in the world, until they meet with God in the missionaries who minister to them, by delivering "the message of reconciliation" with which the missionaries have been entrusted by God.

God may add daily to those being saved, by whatever gracious method God chooses. God keeps promises only to those to whom God has made them, but God is not restricted in how He can graceously behave when it comes to 'finding the lost', and 'adding to those being saved'. They then become subject to God's covenant and His promises
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Nevertheless God adds those being saved by keeping promises He has made to those who believe Him and take God at His Word.

"I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." 2 Tim.1:5-7.
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