What is the significance of infant baptism?

BABerean2 said:

Have you been "born again" of the Spirit of God?
When did it happen?
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Rough estimate, about 47 years ago. How about you?
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ExTiff said:

Rough estimate, about 47 years ago. How about you?
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About 23 years ago for me.

Were you a baby 47 years ago?

BABerean2 said:

About 23 years ago for me.

Were you a baby 47 years ago?

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Of course not. Babies cannot sin, so have no need of repentance, so have no need of assisence from the Holy Spirit to help them overcome temptation and their natural predispostion to sin, YET. It is only as they grow up that they need God's guidance, protection and constant support to resist sin, do God's will for them, and discover the gifts God has given them to fulfil their purpose for being born into this world, just as Jesus did the will of His Father from his birth to his death on a cross, and very much knew the purpose to which he was born. Lk.2:27, Lk.2:40, Matt.12:14-21. Jesus mode of development as a human being is the patern that the children of believers should follow if we were born sinless, but unfortunately our human heritage means we are not. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from birth, that does not mean though that he was sinless, he knew himself not to be. Luke 1:17, Luke 1:80, Luke 3:16. Of course this does not always seem to happen with us, there may be reasons though for that, not the least being that there are many parents 'who may think themselves believing' who are merely 'religious', as were the Pharisees, and in fact doubt God's promises to both themselves and their children. They do not themselves pray, they cannot teach their children how to communicate with God because they have not experienced it themselves, they have not closed with the covenant themselves. Pouring water on the heads of the babies of the unbelieving will not make the little darlings 'Holy'. 'Religious' people just have too much Bible book learning and not enough actual experience of a relationship with God. Exactly the problem of the Pharisees. The infants of believers are 'Holy' the infants of the unbelieving are not. God alone knows who actually believes His Promises, God alone decides who is 'Holy'.

So I believe I was born to a purpose under God's discipline, under the New Testament covenant, because my parents or grandparents may have been faithful believers in God's promises. I did not fulfil my obligation to God, in commitment however, until I repented, believed, and voluntarily agreed to unquestioningly accept my Lord's discipline and guidance in the Holy Spirit which He has since fully endowed upon me. Ps.139:1-24.

I 'met God face to face' after 3 near death experiences and a great deal of anxious prayer, at the age of 26. Until then I had no idea of His constant interest in my life, or His loving concern about how I lived it.
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ExTiff said:

So I believe I was born to a purpose under God's discipline, under the New Testament covenant, because my parents or grandparents may have been faithful believers in God's promises.

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Now I understand why you have attempted to deny that the Abrahamic promise was made only to the one seed(Christ) in Galatians 3:16.

Based on your doctrine the children of unbelievers cannot have the same status before God, because their family members are their "mediator".
That idea goes back to Augustine.
The history of the doctrine starts at about 35 minutes into the following audio message.

Christ is our mediator before God, instead of our parents, or grandparents.

Thank God that missionaries all over the world have a different viewpoint than yours.

Based on the 27 books of the New Testament, you could not have been in the New Covenant until you were "born again" of the Spirit of God, through faith in Christ, as found in Ephesians 1:13.

My relationship with God has nothing to do with my parents, or grandparents.
You have adopted the error of the Pharisees, who put their faith in being the seed of Abraham.
Christ told them they were of the devil, because they wanted to kill him, in John 8:33-44.


Heb 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

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BABerean2 said:

Now I understand why you have attempted to deny that the Abrahamic promise was made only to the one seed(Christ) in Galatians 3:16.

Based on your doctrine the children of unbelievers cannot have the same status before God, because their family members are their "mediator".
That idea goes back to Augustine.
The history of the doctrine starts at about 35 minutes into the following audio message.

Christ is our mediator before God, instead of our parents, or grandparents.

Thank God that missionaries all over the world have a different viewpoint than yours.

Based on the 27 books of the New Testament, you could not have been in the New Covenant until you were "born again" of the Spirit of God, through faith in Christ, as found in Ephesians 1:13.

My relationship with God has nothing to do with my parents, or grandparents.
You have adopted the error of the Pharisees, who put their faith in being the seed of Abraham.
Christ told them they were of the devil, because they wanted to kill him, in John 8:33-44.


Heb 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

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Now I understand why you have attempted to deny that the Abrahamic promise was made only to the one seed(Christ) in Galatians 3:16.

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You seem to understand precious little of the promises of God and certainly nothing about what I believe, apart from what I have told you and which you take no notice of, it seems.

Deut.30:6. Deut.30:6. This promise, you will I hope notice, does not refer to Jesus Christ as THE seed, Deut.30:6, because if it did that would imply that Jesus Christ, (THE seed, the Messiah, God has promised to His People, in fulfillment of The everlasting Covenant, Deut.30:6, was in need of 'spiritual heart surgery' by God.

Why ever, in your estimation, would God 'promise' Christ that HE would be 'circumcised of heart', and HIS seed after him? This simply would not make sense. Your (only Christ got the promise), theology is skewed, if it leads you to believe God promised Christ alone 'a heart of flesh' to replace his, 'heart of stone', (you seem to assume, if your weird theology is extrapolated), CHRIST, the only person ever to live, who had no NEED whatever of such a promise, was the only person on earth who ever received it. Ezek.44:7, Ezek.36:26.

Whereas we all presumably admit He, Christ, The Messiah of God, was without sin, previous to and from conception to ascension and beyond into eternity. He is THE SEED. but the promise of Deut.30:6, is not addressed to Him, as you seem to want to have it, by your wrong assumption and interperative error concerning what Paul actually meant by what he wrote, concerning THE SEED, which was promised to His people, (i.e. those who believed God's promises), those of a 'circumcised heart'. John 1:12-13.

You obviously have not read or understood post #259 concerning our theology. Go back and read it, I have provided the link. I am growing tired of my words falling on 'trodden ground' and 'deaf ears'. Matt.13:4, Matt.13:15.
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ExTiff said:

I have already dealt with this issue. The basis and theological foundation for infant baptism does not depend upon appeals to New Testament scripture. New Testament scripture deals mostly with the establishing of the New Testament church, which initially was composed mostly of Jewish adults in need of instruction in righteousness and later joined by Gentiles who had little understanding of Old Testament salvation history.

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If you think all of Abraham's seed are in heaven, based on who their parents would be, you are ignoring Korah's rebellion, and the words of John the Baptist, found below.

Mat 3:9 and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

You have dealt with the issue from the standpoint of a Pharisee, who placed their faith in family lineage.

It is the same error made by most modern Orthodox Jews.

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BABerean2 said:

If you think all of Abraham's seed are in heaven, based on who their parents would be, you are ignoring Korah's rebellion, and the words of John the Baptist, found below.

Mat 3:9 and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

You have dealt with the issue from the standpoint of a Pharisee, who placed their faith in family lineage.

It is the same error made by most modern Orthodox Jews.

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Have you never understood the Parable of The Sower. Who do you think THE Seed is that is broadcast into the hearts of 'men'? And why do you think He came to His people, but they would not have him. John 1:11. And who, of His people received him, this SEED. John1:12-13.

The promise certainly was to Christ also and primarily though, no one can deny that. 2 Tim.2:8. But Jesus Christ cetainly had no need of the promise, of 'circumcision of heart' and it is far from the truth that He is the only one that received the promise from God. 'Circumcision of heart' is what is promised to ALL by God, who believe in God's promises. Jesus was formost in that He was the ULTIMATE believer in God's promises. Indeed, He should know better than anyone, being God himself.

Jesus Christ is the gospel, Jesus Christ is the content of the promise, Jesus Christ is THE SEED that was and is promised to those who beleve God's promises. It is he that grows in our hearts, it is the spirit of Jesus which gives us life. Do you still yet not understand?

You have not been following the thread properly, go back and read what I have previously written. I'm not going to repeat myself indefinitely, even though I have eternal life, my time is valuable to me.
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ExTiff said:

Do you still yet not understand?

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I understand that I have gotten double-talk from you.

You claim that the unsaved children of believers are different from those of unbelievers, and then turn around and acknowledge that all people must be "born again" of the Spirit of God to inherit the kingdom.

You claim my relationship to God may be based on the faith of one of my grandparents, and then turn around and acknowledge that my relationship to God is based on my faith in Christ.

You have also done your very best to ignore the testimony of Thomas Dickerson, which reveals the error of your doctrine.


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ExTiff said:

OSAS is a damnable heresy which denies the necessity for perseverance in the saints.

We are daily being saved Acts.2:46-47. Phil.2:12. 1 Cor.1:18. 2 Cor.2:15. We are being saved all the time we are a living part of the church militant here on earth. We are only saved (past tense), once we have died and reached heaven, where our salvation has been hidden with Christ in God. Col.3:3.



Continue! Jn.8:31. Jn.15:9. Acts.13:43. Acts 14:22. Rom.11:22. Col.1:23. 1 Tim.2:15. 1 Tim. 4:16. 1 Jn.2:24.
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Eternal security is a biblical truth...

ExTiff said:

Have you never understood the Parable of The Sower. Who do you think THE Seed is that is broadcast into the hearts of 'men'? And why do you think He came to His people, but they would not have him. John 1:11. And who, of His people received him, this SEED. John1:12-13.

The promise certainly was to Christ also and primarily though, no one can deny that. 2 Tim.2:8. But Jesus Christ cetainly had no need of the promise, of 'circumcision of heart' and it is far from the truth that He is the only one that received the promise from God. 'Circumcision of heart' is what is promised to ALL by God, who believe in God's promises. Jesus was formost in that He was the ULTIMATE believer in God's promises. Indeed, He should know better than anyone, being God himself.

Jesus Christ is the gospel, Jesus Christ is the content of the promise, Jesus Christ is THE SEED that was and is promised to those who beleve God's promises. It is he that grows in our hearts, it is the spirit of Jesus which gives us life. Do you still yet not understand?

You have not been following the thread properly, go back and read what I have previously written. I'm not going to repeat myself indefinitely, even though I have eternal life, my time is valuable to me.
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The seed in the parable is the scriptures, especially the Gospel, and depending on what happens with us once we hear/read it determines if we are then saved or still lost!

BABerean2 said:

I understand that I have gotten double-talk from you.

You claim that the unsaved children of believers are different from those of unbelievers, and then turn around and acknowledge that all people must be "born again" of the Spirit of God to inherit the kingdom.

You claim my relationship to God may be based on the faith of one of my grandparents, and then turn around and acknowledge that my relationship to God is based on my faith in Christ.

You have also done your very best to ignore the testimony of Thomas Dickerson, which reveals the error of your doctrine.

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I am a Calvinist, but also do hold that we must be born again, by receiving Jesus thru faith, and also see God electing all babes/infants to salvation in Christ, not just those of saved parents!

BABerean2 said:

I understand that I have gotten double-talk from you.

You claim that the unsaved children of believers are different from those of unbelievers, and then turn around and acknowledge that all people must be "born again" of the Spirit of God to inherit the kingdom.

You claim my relationship to God may be based on the faith of one of my grandparents, and then turn around and acknowledge that my relationship to God is based on my faith in Christ.

You have also done your very best to ignore the testimony of Thomas Dickerson, which reveals the error of your doctrine.

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You have also done your very best to ignore the testimony of Thomas Dickerson, which reveals the error of your doctrine.

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Cult of persons other than Christ! 1 Cor.1:11-13. Alternative gospel. Gal.1:6. Oh foolish Galatians who has bewitched you? Gal.1:7.

You claim that the unsaved children of believers are different from those of unbelievers, and then turn around and acknowledge that all people must be "born again" of the Spirit of God to inherit the kingdom.

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Matt.22:29.

You claim my relationship to God may be based on the faith of one of my grandparents, and then turn around and acknowledge that my relationship to God is based on my faith in Christ.

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Are you so stiff necked that you cannot accept even the possibility that your conversion might be attributable to a promice God made to one of your ancestors, that you resisted God fulfilling in you for 40 years? Yes! Do you so much insist that you are the captain of your own salvation that you fly in the face of God's word that he keeps His covenant with those that fear him to generations? Deut.7:9. How arragant! No wonder I am having such difficulty with you too! (this should just be a smily to say I am not really pi**ed off with you, but the waving one was the only suitably jocular one available).

Do you ever even bother to click on the scripture references which logically support my doctrine? I notice you never discuss them nor are apparently therefore able to refute the logic of them.
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YeshuaFan said:

Eternal security is a biblical truth...

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Only if we persevere in the faith once delivered. Jude.1:3.

YeshuaFan said:

I am a Calvinist, but also do hold that we must be born again, by receiving Jesus thru faith, and also see God electing all babes/infants to salvation in Christ, not just those of saved parents!

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Interesting! Where do you get the specific scriptural warrant for believing that all infants are elect?

Their sins (no longer being held against them by God, them being unable at that early stage in life to do much serious 'sinning' anyhow, and Christ having taken care of their original sin on the cross), they would be quite safe from condemnation, but elect? I would like to see some scripture to support that 'nice warm feeling' you seem to have.
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ExTiff said:

Cult of persons other than Christ! 1 Cor.1:11-13. Alternative gospel. Gal.1:6. Oh foolish Galatians who has bewitched you? Gal.1:7.



Matt.22:29.



Are you so stiff necked that you cannot accept even the possibility that your conversion might be attributable to a promice God made to one of your ancestors, that you resisted God fulfilling in you for 40 years? Yes! Do you so much insist that you are the captain of your own salvation that you fly in the face of God's word that he keeps His covenant with those that fear him to generations? Deut.7:9. How arragant! No wonder I am having such difficulty with you too! (this should just be a smily to say I am not really pi**ed off with you, but the waving one was the only suitably jocular one available).

Do you ever even bother to click on the scripture references which logically support my doctrine? I notice you never discuss them nor are apparently therefore able to refute the logic of them.
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God saves by individual election, as He determines our salvation based upon His own will, not in promises made before us!

ExTiff said:

Are you so stiff necked that you cannot accept even the possibility that your conversion might be attributable to a promice God made to one of your ancestors, that you resisted God fulfilling in you for 40 years?

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Based on Galatians 3:16-29, I am Abraham's seed and inherit the promise through Jesus Christ, not through one of my grandparents.

If that is being "stiff necked", then give me a sign and I will proudly wear it.

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ExTiff said:

Only if we persevere in the faith once delivered. Jude.1:3.

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The elect in Christ shall do that, as the triune God will make sure of it, as in Romans 8!

ExTiff said:

Interesting! Where do you get the specific scriptural warrant for believing that all infants are elect?

Their sins (no longer being held against them by God, them being unable at that early stage in life to do much serious 'sinning' anyhow, and Christ having taken care of their original sin on the cross), they would be quite safe from condemnation, but elect? I would like to see some scripture to support that 'nice warm feeling' you seem to have.
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Based upon inference from the Person of God, and how Jesus expressed himself towards the children that came to Him!

BABerean2 said:

Based on Galatians 3:16-29, I am Abraham's seed and inherit the promise through Jesus Christ, not through one of my grandparents.

If that is being "stiff necked", then give me a sign and I will proudly wear it.

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The spiritual heirs of Abraham are both Jews and gentiles who have received Jesus as Lord thru faith!

YeshuaFan said:

God saves by individual election, as He determines our salvation based upon His own will, not in promises made before us!

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So God makes no promises nor keeps them now is it? Luke 1:13-17.
Careful! You are close to offending Him, if you havn't already. Rom.15:8.