Does Lucifer Have Free Will?

cvanwey said:

So when you read the NT, you hear Jesus speak to you? Or is it when you read scripture, you feel a presence. I'm not sure what you mean here?

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I am not that lucky to feel God's presence. What I meant is I get what God want us to do and some attribute of God from His message, the Bible.

cvanwey said:

Why do you conclude the existence of God? "You can't get something from nothing?" "Without a God, life has no intrinsic meaning?" Other? This question is surely not meant to be condescending. I'm actually quite curious how you (know) there must be a divine singular creator, verses the many other probably conclusions?

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This come a long way, since I was an atheist. I was interested in computers when I was young, and bought a book about the internals of the CPU. after a summer I finish the book, from start to end, learned how the gate works, how the adders works, how memories work, and how cpu work in general. The shocking part of it is I found there is nothing speical in the CPU, it is just a piece of machine, and from that point on I start to realize that it is impossible to create conscious from material. No such model exist. There has to be something that attribute to a spiritual domain to have something of a conscious. This idea became stronger and stronger as I develop an interest in programming and start to design games and various programs, it is very plain (I would assume it is also common with other computer science graduates) that all those computers only fake conscious.

cvanwey said:

How did you determine that your believed God is 'good'? As I'm sure you are aware, you can certainly pick out many parts in the Bible to contradict that notion. But I am a moral relativist, so what do I know? So I guess I'm asking, is it that 'God is good' because anything God instructs or commands must be 'for good'? Or, were you able to discern this conclusion on your own accord?

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That is a very good question. in fact initially I perfered Buddhism to Christianity/Islam/Judahism due to that, some of the stuff in the OT is just out of my taste. But as I grew, I read from history or from first hand experience how awful humans are, how we keep trying to do good things either with good intension or pretended intension, that so many good initiatives became horrible (the idea of communism is great till you actually try to use it, no matter in what sociality), that I realized how great the command of God is.

cvanwey said:

I don't find the message consistent though. So how do we determine which one of us is correct? But even if everything you say was true, (i.e.) the book expresses pure love and is consistent throughout, how does such writings manifest or prove the existence of a singular God? Couldn't humans write such stories and assertions without there ever being aware of an actual God? Meaning, is it possible that all is written by humans, and their own thoughts?

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Could be, but once from my above deduction that I decided there is a God, your above statem is moot.

cvanwey said:

Couldn't I say the same thing about the many other religions you've declined, which you might have never even heard of, in which you decided to reject without appropriate investigation? Most of us have not given all assertions a fare shake, as there exists too many to do so... Not including the ones you may never have heard of...

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If God exists and want his message known, then His message will be a big one, as you can see today Judism/Christianity/Islam combined dwrfs all. I already told you why I turned down Buddhism etc, and Christianity is a good extension/explanation of Judism. To me anything that claims we can save ourselfs are fake religion, since history has proven again and again we can't.

cvanwey said:

Yes I have. Before I started to read the Bible, I was brought up believing it is true - (indoctrinated). I was too intellectually lazy to actually read the claimed source. But after I started to read it for myself, and see that some events in there do not appear to jive with my 'known' reality, I started to question... When the answers received were not satisfying, along with never feeling any presence from 'above', I started to research for myself...

For me, it is about the following...

- Claimed events, which are actually falsifiable, do not correlate with later 'provable' or 'falsifiable' discovery

- The collection of books do not appear consistent, (especially from the OT to the NT)

- I have never witnessed anything supernatural, which makes me skeptical

- I prayed for 30+ years and nothing; no feelings, no nothing. Instead just wishful thinking alone...

- Nothing written in the Bible appears to be forward thinking or forwarding knowing, (no foreknowledge given which might at least demonstrate a 'higher intelligence' was demonstrated to at least conclude such messages were given by something or someone other than mere human beings)

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cvanwey said:

My question for you is, how do you (know) when you read the Bible, you are not just reading a collection of stories written by humans, and humans alone?



I'm not, that's why I'm on here All I can use is my own reasoning. And yet, all I'M asking for, is LESS than most. Which is... The knowledge of existence to this claimed God. I asked for decades. God appears to be the best hide-and-seeker imaginable. There appears no logical reason to remain hidden. This would not ruin 'free will'. I could live the rest of my life knowing which God is the real God, and still decide whether I wish to accept, love, and follow (or) reject Him for numerous reasons...

Writings from a book, with 'facts' or assertions which do not correlate with 'testable' human discovery does not appear to be a righteous path to convey 'truth'????

The moral argument does not sway me one way or another... If Yahweh exists, Yahweh could state to 'rape babies daily for fun'. If Yahweh exists, and Yahweh is proven to exist, then the moral implications are, quite frankly, disconnected from the reality that humans would need to adhere to God's word, regardless of whether or not we agree. You know, the whole 'Euthyphro dilemma' thingy.....

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I came from opposite side as you . I argued with my Christian friends for years, and finally come to terms and found once you put it logically the Bible is actually superior to all. There is no book like the Bible where God laid all our failures to us by the smartest people on earth, the Jews, all the stories there reflects to the things we are having today, even though we now have cell phones, computers, airplanes, we are repeating the same mistakes before, as there is nothing new under the sun. God definitely exists, and the bad thing is, God is so far ahead of us that we are not able to understood why He did some of the things (there is a research that states if IQ spread of 2 people is over certain number they 2 will not be able to comunicate effectively, not sure the source but I saw this from time to time), just look at the universe and you know the existence of God is undeniable. I watched a documentary about CERN and one of the scientist, who is atheist, states that he can't understand why the parameters of the world is so perfectly aligned, and he has to use theory of multi-verse to explain it, so that our world is only one in an infiite of randomness

cvanwey said:

What do you define as consciousness? You do understand the 'argument from consciousness' has been contested thoroughly, right?

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Likely, nothing new under the sun. I think self awareness is more accurate (maybe). You can't code it with a computer.

cvanwey said:

Then please, if you would not mind, can you please attempt an answer to the actual question then?

How did (you) determine God is actually 'good'?

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His message.

cvanwey said:

But Jesus stated (He) is the way. So you are saying that your religion/beliefs are true because a magical man said to worship Him specifically. How does this make it true? Again, this goes right back to the OP entirely. We are doing circles here...

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read his message. Is there anyone else that has the same message, and not here to rule but to die?

cvanwey said:

You could make the very same argument, and be perfectly false. A collection of many stories, 'inspired by God', does not necessarily result in truth. The testable assertions would need to a least align with falsifiable reality.



Then PROVE it!

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As I said, if we can't create selfawareness then nature can't either, then something else must exist that is not physical for this.

cvanwey said:

I disagree. 99.999999% of the universe is inhabitable to humans. Only a small portion of the earth is suitable for human life. Doesn't seem like much of a 'design'... Species go extinct all the time, and will continue to do so. The world is an 'unkind' environment.

Smuggling God as the conclusion, because you cannot think of a 'better' answer does not mean your God is the answer. You must prove it. Otherwise, please don't assert it.

If you were an 'atheist' for years, I would assume you may be aware you are in direct violation to the commonly used fallacy 'argument from ignorance.'?.?.?



Therefore Yahweh is real?

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I am presenting this to show you that a an non-physical realm is real. However my argument (about selfawareness) is only good to this point, which description of the such realam is the right one can't be descrened by my initial self awareness argument.

So that part leads to the understanding of the books. To me, it is clear that the Bible is the perfect book for us, and no other book ever tell you that you can't save yourselfs, and can only saved by God, and must Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.

cvanwey said:

Okay, so we can get right back on track again, I'm going to do you a GIANT favor

'Not only does God exist, but a single God exists. And not only does a singular God exist, but we have writings which state a later Messiah will fulfill all prophecy.'

Okay, great! We are right back to WHERE WE STARTED

I now AGAIN assert....

Jesus was Lucifer in disguise. Starting anew...

- Humans have fallible minds
- Lucifer can lie
- Lucifer can change form
- Lucifer can even mimic 'good'
- Lucifer has free will
- Lucifer has extra ordinary powers
- No one knew what such a Messiah would looked like to compare against (and is left to judge such a said person's actions)
- Lucifer's aim is to deceive humans
- Lucifer is smarter than humans
- Lucifer's goal is to harvest souls
- Lucifer's goal is to get humans to break the first commandment

Okay... Go... All you need to do is 'disprove' any assertion above.

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Does the God/Jesus/any of the real prophets ever states that we can save ourselvs without God?

Nicholas Deka said:

Sigh... Whenever someone "snips" me, I can tell they aren't interested in a real conversation, but okay. Basically, you're saying that you discern with "spirit", which amounts to nothing more than saying, "I just know".

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Sorry for the snip, but that is underlying problem. You say I don't know or I don't claim to know, or I know next to nothing. Yet, God has been speaking, God has been telling you the things you need to know ever so gently. It is not "I just know", because I don't have a monopoly on God, the problem is that if we are not careful, through various ways, we build walls to reject God. That is the scheme of satan.

Nicholas Deka said:

That's not true. I don't claim to know one way or the other.

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Why don't you know? Have you rejected the works of Jesus? Have you rejected the testimony of Yeshua followers?

Nicholas Deka said:

That doesn't make any sense. You're saying that the Jews who reject Jesus have chosen the Golden Calf, even though they still worship Yahweh. They didn't choose some new idol to replace Yahweh, they just didn't accept that their understanding of Him should be expanded.

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Although the Israelites saw God's miracles day after day what did they do on Mt Sinai?
The Law came down the mountain and found idolatry. Nevertheless can anyone keep the full requirements of the Law?
Jesus came down to fulfil the Law for you, on your behalf, what will he find?
The Pharisees said Jesus was demon possessed.
You say that Jesus was actually satan. Isn't that the way it is?

SinoBen said:

You say I don't know or I don't claim to know, or I know next to nothing. Yet, God has been speaking, God has been telling you the things you need to know ever so gently. It is not "I just know", because I don't have a monopoly on God, the problem is that if we are not careful, through various ways, we build walls to reject God. That is the scheme of satan.

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If God is talking to me, I wouldn't know who's voice it was. How could I?

SinoBen said:

You say that Jesus was actually satan.

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Okay, that's twice now you've claimed I said this, and this is twice I'm correcting you. If you keep telling me what I've said and continue being wrong, I'm going to have to start assuming you're lying. As of right now, I'll assume you're just not listening to me.

Nicholas Deka said:

If God is talking to me, I wouldn't know who's voice it was. How could I?

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I'll tell you:
God speaks to us in many ways, it could be as common as a voice of conscience, as I mentioned earlier we can also lean on the Holy Spirit to help us discern what is from God and what is not, we also have the Bible to confirm what we have heard, of course the more we know the Bible, the better we can decide. What ever we perceive, we can confirm with the Bible not to contradict it, finally we can also ask our elders, those more mature in the faith, those we can see (as much as possible) living a righteous lifestyle.

There are many guiding principles from the Bible, here is one:

cvanwey said:

You have addressed absolutely nothing I have brought forth. I have already addressed this assertion.

Which is....

How does this make your belief true? Satan is deceptive. Satan would know exactly what would convince you. He would tell humans anything to believe him. This is the primary motive of deceit

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Well, I did, and I did it multiple times but you can't see it for some reason

So let's try this. Does Satan gain anything by stating the truth? He has to lie at some point right? Do we agree on the above?

Now, if we agree, then Satan has to differ from what I consider the central message, that is we must Love God with all and Love our neighbors, and that we can't save ourselves, only God can. Once he differs we know it is not God.

SinoBen said:

I'll tell you:
God speaks to us in many ways, it could be as common as a voice of conscience, as I mentioned earlier we can also lean on the Holy Spirit to help us discern what is from God and what is not, we also have the Bible to confirm what we have heard, of course the more we know the Bible, the better we can decide. What ever we perceive, we can confirm with the Bible not to contradict it, finally we can also ask our elders, those more mature in the faith, those we can see (as much as possible) living a righteous lifestyle.

There are many guiding principles from the Bible, here is one:
1 John 4:4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

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You're missing my point. This only works if I assume that Christianity is the one true faith. Like I said, I can't know if Christianity is the right path, so if I heard a voice telling me to follow it, I couldn't know if I should.

cvanwey said:

No, you did not address my point to (you)

As I stated several times now. Satan came to earth to deceive humans 2K years ago. You, yourself, stated you received your messages from Scripture. We both agree that humans wrote the NT right? Authors recorded either what they experienced, witnessed, or heard from oral tradition. If Satan came to earth 2K years ago, and preached he was the Messiah, while performing magic, and telling people stuff they want to hear, then you are adhering to a message written long ago. And that's all.

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Yes I did address your points. Just initially you keep asking what if satan give the wrong message and I keep addressing how to see if the message is wrong.
1. God will preserve His messages, so even thought satan try best to fool us, it has to be within God's permission, and that God will make sure the message is straight.
2. Given the above, why people still deivate? Because people want to believe what they believe, even when what they believe is flawed. Do you believe that there is no God? Do you believe that the Bible is wrong? What's your believe?

Nicholas Deka said:

You're missing my point. This only works if I assume that Christianity is the one true faith. Like I said, I can't know if Christianity is the right path, so if I heard a voice telling me to follow it, I couldn't know if I should.

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Looks like we have to go back one step further away then. There is much information on the religions of the world, all practically at your fingertips. Go and seek out the truth.

Use these tools: Set up a grid
Origin, Meaning, Morality, Destiny
check them against these
Logical consistency, Empirical adequacy, Experiential relevance.

God does not impose His will on his creatures. The will is ordered to the good. Satan's too. Satan didn't choose the good of God and as a consequence he can only choose his own. Satan's will is not informed of the good of God and so is not free. He is free to choose his own good but Christ has cast Satan behind Him.

If we believe good exists it's because the creator of all is good. If it is the creator of all that we are discussing when we say 'God", then no matter what we come to believe He does we are unable to judge.

Jesus taught and demonstrated this reality.

Mathew 19:16
16 Then someone came to him and said, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good.

Matthew 26:39
And going a little farther, he threw himself on the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet not what I want but what you want.”

cvanwey said:

I believe you are avoiding all my points. I believe you have not addressed, or have attempted to falsify any of my original assertions.

I will try one last time, and try to guide you a little bit...

Stay with me now...

- Humans have flawed minds.
- Satan lies
- Satan deceived humans
- Satan can impersonate 'good'
- Satan has free will
- Satan is at least as smart, or smarter than humans
- Satan can perform magic

I would assume preemptively, that you agree with all of the above....

Conclusion........

If YOU are able to 'discern' truth by being able to distinguish God from Satan, from the consistency of the message, then wouldn't it be safe to conclude that Satan ALSO would know this as well, (as indicated from the points in which we both agree upon above)?

Stay with me now....

Satan's motive is pure deceit. Satan could do or say anything, at any time.

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A couple of points I don't agree, i.e. Satan may have free will, but he is also limited by God.
And the free will part is also up to debate, I am debating with myself that if we or satan has free will (I was initially with the position that we don't, but then someone else quoted scripture that we might do).

cvanwey said:

So I again ask?????

If Satan can impersonate a man named Jesus, perform magic, get many to follow, and also mimic 'good', then how do you know Satan was not mimicking a man named Jesus?

Now....

If Satan was restricted, or limited in his free will to do the above, then please do not address ANY of the above and instead only answer the question below.....

If God disallows Satan to mimic Jesus, then why does God allow Satan to perform all other acts against humans, considered 'bad', all-the-while, God claiming to also be 'good'?

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So I am also conflicted with the idea of satan. A lot of the christians think satan is a great devil, but according to some, this satan might just be a heavenly being that serves as a persecutor, and use our own sinfulness to persecute us (just my own oponion and not solidified). In fact all the OT stories satan can be interperted as such, and in NT there was some passage that says we are charged with our own sins, i.e. we can't blame the devil for it.

E no such thing as free will.

cvanwey said:

If I conclude not to follow God's plan, do I have a choice of my outcome?

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If you can choose the former you can choose the latter.
QUOTE="cvanwey, post: 73686162, member: 409550"]And I disagree with your assertion that God 'does not impose His will on humans'. f[/QUOTE]
If He did there would be no such thing as free will.