- Apr 5, 2007
- 140,016
- 25,180
- 55
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Reformed
- Marital Status
- Married
There is no robot system in Calvinism. Educate yourself.The robot-system that Calvinism imagines - does not exist.
Upvote
0
There is no robot system in Calvinism. Educate yourself.The robot-system that Calvinism imagines - does not exist.
You didn’t answer the question as to why folks choose the way they do.has nothing to do with 'pre-programming' -- has to do with free will.
God "draws all mankind to Me" John 12:32.
God even comes to "His OWN and His OWN receive Him not " John 1:11
God asks "what MORE was there to do that I have not done?" Isaiah 5:4
The robot-system that Calvinism imagines - does not exist.
The free will system that He sovereignly chooses and supernaturally maintains does exist as Romans 10 points out.
Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Calvinism fails in that it tries to "be god" but can't. So when it says God cannot know the future without you being a pre-programmed robot - they are wrong. God knew every Word Christ would say (as Calvinists will admit)- even so Christ had free will and was not a robot (as Calvinists will also admit). A mystery Calvinism cannot fathom. Yet it employs arguments that rely on concluding for the robot model simply because God knows the future, even though Christ Himself disproves that assumption that they are making.
Back to square one. Why do some choose the dark and some choose the light?
You didn’t answer the question as to why folks choose the way they do.
Free will doesn’t answer it. If it’s just free will, then the Christian is just smarter, or wiser, or some other thing. So free will doesn’t cover it.has nothing to do with 'pre-programming' -- has to do with free will.
God "draws all mankind to Me" John 12:32.
God even comes to "His OWN and His OWN receive Him not " John 1:11
God asks "what MORE was there to do that I have not done?" Isaiah 5:4
The robot-system that Calvinism imagines - does not exist.
The free will system that He sovereignly chooses and supernaturally maintains does exist as Romans 10 points out.
Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Calvinism fails in that it tries to "be god" but can't. So when it says God cannot know the future without you being a pre-programmed robot - they are wrong. God knew every Word Christ would say (as Calvinists will admit)- even so Christ had free will and was not a robot (as Calvinists will also admit). A mystery Calvinism cannot fathom. Yet it employs arguments that rely on concluding for the robot model simply because God knows the future, even though Christ Himself disproves that assumption that they are making.
I said "has nothing to do with 'pre-programming' -- has to do with free will." --
then I prove that from scripture.
Your response appears to be that "free will" is not an acceptable answer.
But never explain why that would be even remotely true.
Ask an atheists why he is not a Christian he will say he chooses not to be a Christian because the Christian religion is nonsense to him. But he will not tell you "the Holy Spirit was convicting the World of sin yesterday and I was listening for a while then I said no to the Holy Spirit". Yet that is what happened.
Free will doesn’t answer it. If it’s just free will, then the Christian is just smarter, or wiser, or some other thing. So free will doesn’t cover it.
That's like saying "why did one person who chose to study get an A on the test and the other person who chose not to study get something less than an A -- and don't tell me "free will" because we both know that before they took the class neither of them knew anything about it, they were both the same"
That response makes no sense in real life -- and not even in Bible theology
-- and don't tell me "free will" because we both know that before they took the class neither of them knew anything about it, they were both the same"
.
So you’ve narrowed it down to, what, knowledge? The Christian knows more? (I have to guess because you won’t actually answer).
Does it have anything to do with our nature?
Interesting. Scripture has a different take on it.Our nature? As in being human? Of course it does. Only humans (and angels) can ponder, reason, feel, assign value to and make choices based on all that. The very fact you can have two people be given the same teaching and one will follow it and another will reject it shows God truly made life that can think independently. Ultimately it means we are without excuse.
In scripture, it says that we have one of two natures depending upon whether we are of Christ. Our desires and beliefs derive from one or the other nature. So someone with an old nature will not believe, nor will they want to.The Christian "knows more" so that's why he chose "to be a Christian"?? seriously?
"Before they took the class they were both the same - they knew nothing at all about it"
Because you insist free will does not exist - each time you see that answer you claim you saw no answer.
In scripture, it says that we have one of two natures depending upon whether we are of Christ. Our desires and beliefs derive from one or the other nature. So someone with an old nature will not believe, nor will they want to.
Since you keep insisting on using scripture out of context, let’s look at it.Your statement is true in the absence of God. But in the presence of God and his supernatural drawing where He says "I will draw ALL mankind to Me" John 12:32 you have the supernatural drawing of "All mankind" that even the worst form of 4 point Calvinism would say "enables all the choice that depravity disables" when it comes to choosing to accept the Gospel.
If I am not mistaken - you are having some trouble with the last two quotes here --
God "draws all mankind to Me" John 12:32.
God even comes to "His OWN and His OWN receive Him not " John 1:11
God asks "what MORE was there to do that I have not done?" Isaiah 5:4
It seems to be an accurate conclusion, at least in this discussion.Really? So what you're saying is I don't know scripture but you do? Typical, everyone's a critic.
In scripture, it says that we have one of two natures depending upon whether we are of Christ. Our desires and beliefs derive from one or the other nature. So someone with an old nature will not believe, nor will they want to.
Since you keep insisting on using scripture out of context, let’s look at it.
20 Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.
21 So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus."
...
The context here is that Greeks wanted to see Him. After a short discourse, and confirmation by His Father, He says that after the crucifixion, He will draw all types of men.
He will draw all types of men. How do we know He means all types, and not every single person?
One, we have the Greeks there. So we can make an assumption that He was going beyond just the Jews.
Next, I don’t know what you thing draw means,
And where else can we see Jesus use this word? How about John 6.
Since you are going redefine “draw” for convenience, then there’s nothing more to discuss. Once you decide to use the actual definition, we can continue.Your statement is true in the absence of God. But in the presence of God and his supernatural drawing where He says "I will draw ALL mankind to Me" John 12:32 you have the supernatural drawing of "All mankind" that even the worst form of 4 point Calvinism would say "enables all the choice that depravity disables" when it comes to choosing to accept the Gospel.
If I am not mistaken - you are having some trouble with the last two quotes here --
God "draws all mankind to Me" John 12:32.
God even comes to "His OWN and His OWN receive Him not " John 1:11
God asks "what MORE was there to do that I have not done?" Isaiah 5:4
The obvious fact that the texts are clearly "inconvenient" to the view you are suggesting is not proof that the texts are "out of context". I think we can all see that point.
Thanks for that quote. but when you bend the text from saying "all mankind" to "all types of mankind" you are going too far with your eisegesis.
Were it true that we could bend the text by inserting "types of" everywhere we find mankind -- we get a very very different Bible.
Clearly as you indicate Calvinism "needs" to propose that insert into the text. but it makes no sense.
In the example you give - the Greeks are not "held off" until after the resurrection.
When the Centurion makes special request for healing his servant Jesus does not say "not until after the cross". Nor does He say "I am interested in all types - but not in every person and I already blessed a gentile a year ago -- that is all"
We don't know any such thing. The Holy Spirit "convicts the world of sin " John 16 not "Convicts all types of worlds".
"It is appointed unto mankind once to die and then comes the judgment" Hebrews 9 -- not "all types of mankind"
Jesus said "mankind shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God" -- not "all types of mankind shall not live by bread alone"
Which is an obvious point with "I will draw all mankind unto Me".
It is that "special" thing that Calvinists are always talking about in John 6
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Indeed that is the point I am making -- the very "Draw" that we find in John 6 which even Calvinists will admit "enables all the 'choice' to accept the Gospel - that depravity disables' is the DRAW of "all mankind".
DRAW that is of the form "I stand at the door and knock IF ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door I WILL come in" Rev 3
DRAW that is of the form "the Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" (not merely all types of worlds) -- John 16.
DRAW that is of the form of the Holy Spirit moving on the heart like the wind and causing the new birth -- John 3
DRAW that is of the form where gentiles "do instinctively the things of the Law showing the works of the Law written on the heart" Romans 2:13-16
DRAW that is of the form of "light shining in the darkness" John 1
Not "drag screaming and kicking" that is a story in calvinism - but is not in the Bible at all.
It seems to be an accurate conclusion, at least in this discussion.
All questions should be answered.Only you can make that conclusion because you have offered nothing except to badger people with questions and then tell them they don't know what they're talking about. My jury will have to remain out.
You have a nice Day.
I didn't choose to believe in Jesus, the Holy Spirit is the reason I can and do.
I didn't choose to believe in predestination, the Bible says God chose us and predestinates so I believe the word of God.
I didn't choose to believe in the Trinity, the Bible says these 3 testify as 1. The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.
I didn't choose to believe 1+1=2.
So, in reality, we can't force ourselves to believe something, right?
All questions should be answered.