You can't chose to believe something can you?

Hammster

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has nothing to do with 'pre-programming' -- has to do with free will.

God "draws all mankind to Me" John 12:32.

God even comes to "His OWN and His OWN receive Him not " John 1:11
God asks "what MORE was there to do that I have not done?" Isaiah 5:4

The robot-system that Calvinism imagines - does not exist.

The free will system that He sovereignly chooses and supernaturally maintains does exist as Romans 10 points out.

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Calvinism fails in that it tries to "be god" but can't. So when it says God cannot know the future without you being a pre-programmed robot - they are wrong. God knew every Word Christ would say (as Calvinists will admit)- even so Christ had free will and was not a robot (as Calvinists will also admit). A mystery Calvinism cannot fathom. Yet it employs arguments that rely on concluding for the robot model simply because God knows the future, even though Christ Himself disproves that assumption that they are making.
You didn’t answer the question as to why folks choose the way they do.
 
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BobRyan

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Back to square one. Why do some choose the dark and some choose the light?

has nothing to do with 'pre-programming' -- has to do with free will.

God "draws all mankind to Me" John 12:32.

God even comes to "His OWN and His OWN receive Him not " John 1:11
God asks "what MORE was there to do that I have not done?" Isaiah 5:4

The robot-system that Calvinism imagines - does not exist.

The free will system that He sovereignly chooses and supernaturally maintains does exist as Romans 10 points out.

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Calvinism fails in that it tries to "be god" but can't. So when it says God cannot know the future without you being a pre-programmed robot - they are wrong. God knew every Word Christ would say (as Calvinists will admit)- even so Christ had free will and was not a robot (as Calvinists will also admit). A mystery Calvinism cannot fathom. Yet it employs arguments that rely on concluding for the robot model simply because God knows the future, even though Christ Himself disproves that assumption that they are making.

You didn’t answer the question as to why folks choose the way they do.

I said "has nothing to do with 'pre-programming' -- has to do with free will." --

then I prove that from scripture.

Your response appears to be that "free will" is not an acceptable answer.

But never explain why that would be even remotely true.

Ask an atheists why he is not a Christian he will say he chooses not to be a Christian because the Christian religion is nonsense to him. But he will not tell you "the Holy Spirit was convicting the World of sin yesterday and I was listening for a while then I said no to the Holy Spirit". Yet that is what happened.
 
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Hammster

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has nothing to do with 'pre-programming' -- has to do with free will.

God "draws all mankind to Me" John 12:32.

God even comes to "His OWN and His OWN receive Him not " John 1:11
God asks "what MORE was there to do that I have not done?" Isaiah 5:4

The robot-system that Calvinism imagines - does not exist.

The free will system that He sovereignly chooses and supernaturally maintains does exist as Romans 10 points out.

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Calvinism fails in that it tries to "be god" but can't. So when it says God cannot know the future without you being a pre-programmed robot - they are wrong. God knew every Word Christ would say (as Calvinists will admit)- even so Christ had free will and was not a robot (as Calvinists will also admit). A mystery Calvinism cannot fathom. Yet it employs arguments that rely on concluding for the robot model simply because God knows the future, even though Christ Himself disproves that assumption that they are making.



I said "has nothing to do with 'pre-programming' -- has to do with free will." --

then I prove that from scripture.

Your response appears to be that "free will" is not an acceptable answer.

But never explain why that would be even remotely true.

Ask an atheists why he is not a Christian he will say he chooses not to be a Christian because the Christian religion is nonsense to him. But he will not tell you "the Holy Spirit was convicting the World of sin yesterday and I was listening for a while then I said no to the Holy Spirit". Yet that is what happened.
Free will doesn’t answer it. If it’s just free will, then the Christian is just smarter, or wiser, or some other thing. So free will doesn’t cover it.
 
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BobRyan

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Free will doesn’t answer it. If it’s just free will, then the Christian is just smarter, or wiser, or some other thing. So free will doesn’t cover it.

That's like saying "why did one person who chose to study get an A on the test and the other person who chose not to study get something less than an A -- and don't tell me "free will" because we both know that before they took the class neither of them knew anything about it, they were both the same"

That response makes no sense in real life -- and not even in Bible theology.

You "propose" that if given IQ tests all those who "chose to study" would have higher IQs ... 'just naturally smarter' then those who chose to party instead of study.

We both know that such assumption does not work in real life. Real life results do not bear out that speculation about who has the higher IQ.

In Calvinism there is no such thing as "free will" therefore if you make a better choice than someone else it is because you were "programmed" differently - with a higher IQ, smarter.. etc. It cannot possibly be "free will" because in Calvinism only "programming" exists. You chose it because you were programmed to do so.
 
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Hammster

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That's like saying "why did one person who chose to study get an A on the test and the other person who chose not to study get something less than an A -- and don't tell me "free will" because we both know that before they took the class neither of them knew anything about it, they were both the same"

That response makes no sense in real life -- and not even in Bible theology

So you’ve narrowed it down to, what, knowledge? The Christian knows more? (I have to guess because you won’t actually answer).
 
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BobRyan

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-- and don't tell me "free will" because we both know that before they took the class neither of them knew anything about it, they were both the same"
.

So you’ve narrowed it down to, what, knowledge? The Christian knows more? (I have to guess because you won’t actually answer).

The Christian "knows more" so that's why he chose "to be a Christian"?? seriously?

"Before they took the class they were both the same - they knew nothing at all about it"

Because you insist free will does not exist - each time you see that answer you claim you saw no answer.
 
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sawdust

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Does it have anything to do with our nature?

Our nature? As in being human? Of course it does. Only humans (and angels) can ponder, reason, feel, assign value to and make choices based on all that. The very fact you can have two people be given the same teaching and one will follow it and another will reject it shows God truly made life that can think independently. Ultimately it means we are without excuse.
 
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Hammster

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Our nature? As in being human? Of course it does. Only humans (and angels) can ponder, reason, feel, assign value to and make choices based on all that. The very fact you can have two people be given the same teaching and one will follow it and another will reject it shows God truly made life that can think independently. Ultimately it means we are without excuse.
Interesting. Scripture has a different take on it.
 
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Hammster

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The Christian "knows more" so that's why he chose "to be a Christian"?? seriously?

"Before they took the class they were both the same - they knew nothing at all about it"

Because you insist free will does not exist - each time you see that answer you claim you saw no answer.
In scripture, it says that we have one of two natures depending upon whether we are of Christ. Our desires and beliefs derive from one or the other nature. So someone with an old nature will not believe, nor will they want to.
 
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BobRyan

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In scripture, it says that we have one of two natures depending upon whether we are of Christ. Our desires and beliefs derive from one or the other nature. So someone with an old nature will not believe, nor will they want to.

Your statement is true in the absence of God. But in the presence of God and his supernatural drawing where He says "I will draw ALL mankind to Me" John 12:32 you have the supernatural drawing of "All mankind" that even the worst form of 4 point Calvinism would say "enables all the choice that depravity disables" when it comes to choosing to accept the Gospel.

If I am not mistaken - you are having some trouble with the last two quotes here --

God "draws all mankind to Me" John 12:32.

God even comes to "His OWN and His OWN receive Him not " John 1:11
God asks "what MORE was there to do that I have not done?" Isaiah 5:4
 
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Hammster

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Your statement is true in the absence of God. But in the presence of God and his supernatural drawing where He says "I will draw ALL mankind to Me" John 12:32 you have the supernatural drawing of "All mankind" that even the worst form of 4 point Calvinism would say "enables all the choice that depravity disables" when it comes to choosing to accept the Gospel.

If I am not mistaken - you are having some trouble with the last two quotes here --

God "draws all mankind to Me" John 12:32.

God even comes to "His OWN and His OWN receive Him not " John 1:11
God asks "what MORE was there to do that I have not done?" Isaiah 5:4
Since you keep insisting on using scripture out of context, let’s look at it.

20 Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.
21 So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus."
22 Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus.
23 And Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
25 Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.
27 "Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? But for this purpose I have come to this hour.
28 Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again."
29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, "An angel has spoken to him."
30 Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not mine.
31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. - John 12:20-33

The context here is that Greeks wanted to see Him. After a short discourse, and confirmation by His Father, He says that after the crucifixion, He will draw all types of men. How do we know He means all types, and not every single person? A couple of things.

One, we have the Greeks there. So we can make an assumption that He was going beyond just the Jews. Remember, the Jews were looking for a Messaiah to rescue them. Jesus is continuing to let them know He is coming for people from everywhere. He started this in John 10 when He said He had other sheep not in that fold (meaning Gentiles). So we have the immediate context.

Next, I don’t know what you thing draw means, but with the way you are using it, I don’t think it means what you think it means. It literally means to drag. Like dragging someone to court. Or drawing a sword out of its sheath, where sword is being forcefully acted upon. Or drawing water from a well. It doesn’t mean to entice or woo. That which is being acted upon is being acted upon by force.

And where else can we see Jesus use this word? How about John 6.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. - John 6:44

So here we have the Father drawing men as well. And what happens when the Father draws men? They are raised up. Not potentially. The are actually raised. So in order to not divide the Godhead, I think it’s a safe assumption that “all people” in John 12 does not mean that Jesus is trying to entice every single person who has ever lived post crucifixion.
 
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Hammster

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Really? So what you're saying is I don't know scripture but you do? Typical, everyone's a critic. ;)
It seems to be an accurate conclusion, at least in this discussion.
 
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BobRyan

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In scripture, it says that we have one of two natures depending upon whether we are of Christ. Our desires and beliefs derive from one or the other nature. So someone with an old nature will not believe, nor will they want to.

Your statement is true in the absence of God. But in the presence of God and his supernatural drawing where He says "I will draw ALL mankind to Me" John 12:32 you have the supernatural drawing of "All mankind" that even the worst form of 4 point Calvinism would say "enables all the choice that depravity disables" when it comes to choosing to accept the Gospel.

If I am not mistaken - you are having some trouble with the last two quotes here --

God "draws all mankind to Me" John 12:32.

God even comes to "His OWN and His OWN receive Him not " John 1:11
God asks "what MORE was there to do that I have not done?" Isaiah 5:4

Since you keep insisting on using scripture out of context, let’s look at it.

The obvious fact that the texts are clearly "inconvenient" to the view you are suggesting is not proof that the texts are "out of context". I think we can all see that point.

Though it is interesting that you focus on John 12 and not --

God even comes to "His OWN and His OWN receive Him not " John 1:11
God asks "what MORE was there to do that I have not done?" Isaiah 5:4

20 Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.
21 So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus."
...
The context here is that Greeks wanted to see Him. After a short discourse, and confirmation by His Father, He says that after the crucifixion, He will draw all types of men.

Thanks for that quote. but when you bend the text from saying "all mankind" to "all types of mankind" you are going too far with your eisegesis.

Were it true that we could bend the text by inserting "types of" everywhere we find mankind -- we get a very very different Bible.

Clearly as you indicate Calvinism "needs" to propose that insert into the text. but it makes no sense.

In the example you give - the Greeks are not "held off" until after the resurrection.

When the Centurion makes special request for healing his servant Jesus does not say "not until after the cross". Nor does He say "I am interested in all types - but not in every person and I already blessed a gentile a year ago -- that is all"

He will draw all types of men. How do we know He means all types, and not every single person?

We don't know any such thing. The Holy Spirit "convicts the world of sin " John 16 not "Convicts all types of worlds".

"It is appointed unto mankind once to die and then comes the judgment" Hebrews 9 -- not "all types of mankind"

Jesus said "mankind shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God" -- not "all types of mankind shall not live by bread alone"

One, we have the Greeks there. So we can make an assumption that He was going beyond just the Jews.

Which is an obvious point with "I will draw all mankind unto Me".

Next, I don’t know what you thing draw means,

It is that "special" thing that Calvinists are always talking about in John 6

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

And where else can we see Jesus use this word? How about John 6.

Indeed that is the point I am making -- the very "Draw" that we find in John 6 which even Calvinists will admit "enables all the 'choice' to accept the Gospel - that depravity disables' is the DRAW of "all mankind".

DRAW that is of the form "I stand at the door and knock IF ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door I WILL come in" Rev 3

DRAW that is of the form "the Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" (not merely all types of worlds) -- John 16.

DRAW that is of the form of the Holy Spirit moving on the heart like the wind and causing the new birth -- John 3

DRAW that is of the form where gentiles "do instinctively the things of the Law showing the works of the Law written on the heart" Romans 2:13-16

DRAW that is of the form of "light shining in the darkness" John 1


Not "drag screaming and kicking" that is a story in calvinism - but is not in the Bible at all.

And for that reason we have this in scripture --

God even comes to "His OWN and His OWN receive Him not " John 1:11
God asks "what MORE was there to do that I have not done?" Isaiah 5:4
 
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Hammster

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Your statement is true in the absence of God. But in the presence of God and his supernatural drawing where He says "I will draw ALL mankind to Me" John 12:32 you have the supernatural drawing of "All mankind" that even the worst form of 4 point Calvinism would say "enables all the choice that depravity disables" when it comes to choosing to accept the Gospel.

If I am not mistaken - you are having some trouble with the last two quotes here --

God "draws all mankind to Me" John 12:32.

God even comes to "His OWN and His OWN receive Him not " John 1:11
God asks "what MORE was there to do that I have not done?" Isaiah 5:4



The obvious fact that the texts are clearly "inconvenient" to the view you are suggesting is not proof that the texts are "out of context". I think we can all see that point.




Thanks for that quote. but when you bend the text from saying "all mankind" to "all types of mankind" you are going too far with your eisegesis.

Were it true that we could bend the text by inserting "types of" everywhere we find mankind -- we get a very very different Bible.

Clearly as you indicate Calvinism "needs" to propose that insert into the text. but it makes no sense.

In the example you give - the Greeks are not "held off" until after the resurrection.

When the Centurion makes special request for healing his servant Jesus does not say "not until after the cross". Nor does He say "I am interested in all types - but not in every person and I already blessed a gentile a year ago -- that is all"



We don't know any such thing. The Holy Spirit "convicts the world of sin " John 16 not "Convicts all types of worlds".

"It is appointed unto mankind once to die and then comes the judgment" Hebrews 9 -- not "all types of mankind"

Jesus said "mankind shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God" -- not "all types of mankind shall not live by bread alone"



Which is an obvious point with "I will draw all mankind unto Me".



It is that "special" thing that Calvinists are always talking about in John 6

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.



Indeed that is the point I am making -- the very "Draw" that we find in John 6 which even Calvinists will admit "enables all the 'choice' to accept the Gospel - that depravity disables' is the DRAW of "all mankind".

DRAW that is of the form "I stand at the door and knock IF ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door I WILL come in" Rev 3

DRAW that is of the form "the Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" (not merely all types of worlds) -- John 16.

DRAW that is of the form of the Holy Spirit moving on the heart like the wind and causing the new birth -- John 3

DRAW that is of the form where gentiles "do instinctively the things of the Law showing the works of the Law written on the heart" Romans 2:13-16

DRAW that is of the form of "light shining in the darkness" John 1


Not "drag screaming and kicking" that is a story in calvinism - but is not in the Bible at all.
Since you are going redefine “draw” for convenience, then there’s nothing more to discuss. Once you decide to use the actual definition, we can continue.
 
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sawdust

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It seems to be an accurate conclusion, at least in this discussion.

Only you can make that conclusion because you have offered nothing except to badger people with questions and then tell them they don't know what they're talking about. My jury will have to remain out. ;)
You have a nice Day. :D
 
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Hammster

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Only you can make that conclusion because you have offered nothing except to badger people with questions and then tell them they don't know what they're talking about. My jury will have to remain out. ;)
You have a nice Day. :D
All questions should be answered.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I didn't choose to believe in Jesus, the Holy Spirit is the reason I can and do.

I didn't choose to believe in predestination, the Bible says God chose us and predestinates so I believe the word of God.

I didn't choose to believe in the Trinity, the Bible says these 3 testify as 1. The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.

I didn't choose to believe 1+1=2.

So, in reality, we can't force ourselves to believe something, right?

God says,

Isaiah 66:3,4 “...Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

And we read

Judges 5:8. They chose new gods; then was war in the gates: was there a shield or spear seen among forty thousand in Israel?”
 
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sawdust

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All questions should be answered.

I answered your questions, you simply don't agree and think I'm wrong yet provide no insight yourself. You're obviously not interested in discussing the topic so go be a jackass somewhere else. :)
 
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