WHY all the great confusion about eternal security?

So thats how it goes, when you cant explain you leave? Ok well I hope you find peace.

Folks I have raised before this prophesy from Jeremiah about the promise of the New Covenant

Jer 32:

37 "Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:

And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me...."

Paul identifies these as New Covenant prophesies in Heb 8.

Our covenant with Him is to be sealed against disobedience by the Fear of Him as the text says.

This infilling unique to the New Covenant guarantees that believers will not depart from Him...

If we don't believe this then we must consider that Jeremiah was a false prophet.

Frankly the peace that comes with knowing one is eternally saved is precious and I can get on with being fruitful instead of questioning my salvation.

I don't deserve what I have, and the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable... He has made it this way to abolish pride and have an eternal family ever praising Him for His undeserved favour.

Many blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Absolutely correct Carl. We can know that our Savior has us in His hands and that no one can pluck us from them and that we are a forgiven, righteous people and His loved possession.

Ezekiel also says that He took out our heart of stone and gave us a heart of flesh. This is not something that can be undone. We are changed and sealed until His return. Telling someone that they can lose their salvation causes fear and perfect love casts out fear. We have nothing to fear from the Father, the fear passages with read are meant as "reverence" not to be scared but to be in awe of Him. He is Holy and righteous and will keep His promise to us.

Carl Emerson said:

Hi there,

The New Covenant promises in Jeremiah are for all truely born again believers.

There is confusion between the status and condition of believers. Ones status can be as an adopted son or daughter but ones condition can be miles away from His righteousness and miles away from the blessings of the Kingdom. I can say this confidently as a prodigal son, born again at 13, but had 11 years of depravity and rebellion between 17 and 28. He met me when I determined to return to my Christian roots, gave me a shake and put me back on the rails. The fear of Him was there, as i knew it was my last chance. It took 7 years of prayer and ministry to be free of the effects of drugs and foolishness. As an evangelist we need to have a word of hope for those who have lost their way as i had. We need to be careful not to have a theology that insists these folks are damned.

Blessings

Carl Emerson.

Click to expand...

Your comments bring up a couple of observations about the prodigal son. I think our theology should reflect that these people (prodigals) are damned BUT the hope is that while they are still able, they should repent and turn aside from sin and be forgiven. If on the other hand, we insist that their status as saved remains the same despite their estranged condition from God, I think we do them a great disservice as it provides them with no motivation to repent as they can still wallow in sin while still believing themselves to be children of God.

Oldmantook said:

Your comments bring up a couple of observations about the prodigal son. I think our theology should reflect that these people (prodigals) are damned BUT the hope is that while they are still able, they should repent and turn aside from sin and be forgiven.

Click to expand...

So Jesus lied when He said no one can pluck you from His hand (including doing it yourself)?

Oldmantook said:

If on the other hand, we insist that their status as saved remains the same despite their estranged condition from God, I think we do them a great disservice as it provides them with no motivation to repent as they can still wallow in sin while still believing themselves to be children of God.

Click to expand...

Exactly how can you be estranged from God if He lives inside you? Yes, we all wallow in sin, it is a attached to us. In Romans it is described as a noun. It is something that you cannot escape from.

JAYPT said:

So Jesus lied when He said no one can pluck you from His hand (including doing it yourself)?

Click to expand...

Did you read that passage very carefully? Eternal life, not perishing and not being plucked out of the Father's hand only applies to those sheep who LISTEN and FOLLOW Jesus as indicated in John 10:27. Sheep who disobey as indicated by not hearing and following Jesus have no assurance to the promises of vs. 28-29.

Oldmantook said:

Did you read that passage very carefully? Eternal life, not perishing and not being plucked out of the Father's hand only applies to those sheep who LISTEN and FOLLOW Jesus as indicated in John 10:27. Sheep who disobey as indicated by not hearing and following Jesus have no assurance to the promises of vs. 28-29.

Click to expand...

Right and Romans says we are obedient from the heart. So its rigged, you cant get away. So disobedient or unrighteous people are not saved thus there is no plucking because they were never His in the first place.

JAYPT said:

Exactly how can you be estranged from God if He lives inside you? Yes, we all wallow in sin, it is a attached to us. In Romans it is described as a noun. It is something that you cannot escape from.

Click to expand...

Your statement is scripturally false. We do not all wallow in sin. The prodigal wallowed in sin as he lived a lifestyle of sin and rebellion against God. Does that sound like an appropriate description of the Christian to you? All Christians commit sin but not all Christians wallow in sin as there is a great difference between the occasional sin which is forgiveable and the practice of sin which is not forgiveable.

Oldmantook said:

Your statement is scripturally false. We do not all wallow in sin. The prodigal wallowed in sin as he lived a lifestyle of sin and rebellion against God. Does that sound like an appropriate description of the Christian to you? All Christians commit sin but not all Christians wallow in sin as there is a great difference between the occasional sin which is forgiveable and the practice of sin which is not forgiveable.

Click to expand...

Romans 6:12 says do not let sin reign in your body so that you obey its lusts. A noun, it is attached to you. Romans 6:17 says we are slaves of righteouness and that we are obedient from the heart.

very scriptural

Right, are Christians practicing sin? Are we laying in bed dreaming up new ways to sin or how we can sin more?

Oldmantook said:

occasional sin which is forgiveable and the practice of sin which is not forgiveable.

Click to expand...

The bible says Jesus died for ALL sins, that means the occasional ones, the frequent ones. It doesnt distinguish.

So if you practice sin and then come to the saving knowledge of Christ, He doesnt forgive you?

JAYPT said:

Right and Romans says we are obedient from the heart. So its rigged, you cant get away. So disobedient or unrighteous people are not saved thus there is no plucking because they were never His in the first place.

Click to expand...

You commit an illogical fallacy popularly known as an overgeneralization. While it is true that some who fall away/commit sin were never saved in the first place, it does not logically follow that all who do so were never saved. That would be like saying since some chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown eggs. Obedience is always a choice. Every single day, you and I have a choice whether to be obedient to God or to disobey. We can choose to sow to the flesh or sow to the spirit. Romans 8:13 warns that if you live according to the flesh, you will die but if you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.

Oldmantook said:

Obedience is always a choice.

Click to expand...

You can walk by the spirit or walk by the flesh.

Oldmantook said:

Romans 8:13 warns that if you live according to the flesh, you will die but if you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.

Click to expand...

Yes, Christians do not live according to the flesh, or not very well at least. You would be a pretty miserable Christian walking by the flesh. Dont forget about the believer in Corinth that was having sexual relations with his fathers wife yet Paul says he was still saved. (not that I am endorsing this)

Oldmantook said:

but if you put to death the deeds of the body you will live

Click to expand...

Yes put on Christ.

Oldmantook said:

Every single day, you and I have a choice whether to be obedient to God or to disobey.

Click to expand...

Doesnt mean you are falling in and out of salvation daily.

Oldmantook said:

You commit an illogical fallacy popularly known as an overgeneralization. While it is true that some who fall away/commit sin were never saved in the first place, it does not logically follow that all who do so were never saved.

Click to expand...

I am not claiming to know peoples hearts, that is what it is about. Only God does.

JAYPT said:

Romans 6:12 says do not let sin reign in your body so that you obey its lusts. A noun, it is attached to you. Romans 6:17 says we are slaves of righteouness and that we are obedient from the heart.

very scriptural

Right, are Christians practicing sin? Are we laying in bed dreaming up new ways to sin or how we can sin more?


The bible says Jesus died for ALL sins, that means the occasional ones, the frequent ones. It doesnt distinguish.

So if you practice sin and then come to the saving knowledge of Christ, He doesnt forgive you?

Click to expand...

Why don't you read Romans carefully instead of just repeating what you (and I) were taught without question. Jesus didn't die for all your sins. He died for our past sins which we have repented of. Present and future sins which we have not repented of have not been forgiven.
Rom 3:25 "whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
If AFTER coming to a saving knowledge of Christ, you still practice a sin, then isn't it quite obvious that you (or I) have not repented of it since we keep doing it?? No repentance = no forgiveness. You were forgiven of your past sins when you repented and became a Christian however we are required to live ongoing lives of repentance. Hebrews 5:9 states that eternal life is given to those obeying Him. No obedience = no salvation.

Having personally walked this journey, I can say it was the fear of Him within me combined with His Love that bought me back. There was never any using my status as a believer to somehow avoid repentance. Repentance is a gift anyway and we cant manufacture it. I will illustrate - I was in a very conservative church, I cant remember what the preaching was about, I vividly remember being completely undone by Him - balling my eyes out - seeing the huge chasm between my 'so called righteousness' and His. Seeing the botom-less depth of darkness in my soul. Knowing that without His grace I was a gonner. I cried for serveral hours and didnt have a clue what was happening to me.
This was repentance - a complete undoing of me to allow for the work He had in mind for me. A deep encounter that was life changing. I was never the same again.
I think we manufacture theology to suit our human perspective of how we think He works rather than basing our conclusions on His Word - written scripture combined with divine revelation.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Oldmantook said:

Hebrews 5:9 states that eternal life is given to those obeying Him. No obedience = no salvation.

Click to expand...

Again, we are obedient from the heart, thus saved. Romans 6:17

Oldmantook said:

Why don't you read Romans carefully instead of just repeating what you (and I) were taught without question. Jesus didn't die for all your sins. He died for our past sins which we have repented of. Present and future sins which we have not repented of have not been forgiven.

Click to expand...

I did read it carefully and it is not just in Romans it says we are forgiven (past tense). It is done, a finished work, blood needs to be spilled for you to be forgiven, I will ask you, who is spilling their blood to forgive your current sins? No one.... So what happens when you forget a sin, or fail to recognize it, there are 613 rules, do you know them all to make sure you confess them all?

JAYPT said:

You can walk by the spirit or walk by the flesh.



Yes, Christians do not live according to the flesh, or not very well at least. You would be a pretty miserable Christian walking by the flesh. Dont forget about the believer in Corinth that was having sexual relations with his fathers wife yet Paul says he was still saved. (not that I am endorsing this)


Yes put on Christ.

Click to expand...

Paul plainly stated that those believers who live according to the flesh WILL DIE. Paul cannot have meant physical death because everyone physically dies no matter how we conduct our lives. Thus spiritual death is the consequence for living according to the flesh. Rom 8:13 is an example of what is known as a 1st class conditional sentence in the Greek language which indicates an if - then type scenario. The condition as indicated by the word IF is assumed to be true (living according to the flesh/protasis) then the result is also true (spiritual death/apodosis).

JAYPT said:

Again, we are obedient from the heart, thus saved. Romans 6:17



I did read it carefully and it is not just in Romans it says we are forgiven (past tense). It is done, a finished work, blood needs to be spilled for you to be forgiven, I will ask you, who is spilling their blood to forgive your current sins? No one.... So what happens when you forget a sin, or fail to recognize it, there are 613 rules, do you know them all to make sure you confess them all?

Click to expand...

No. Read Rom 3:25 again. It states we are forgiven of our sins PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED. Present and future sins require ongoing repentance.