Pethesedzao
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I believe that there's only one Gog Magog wars and that is the one at the end of the Millennium.
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What I see is this last kingdom that Lord Jesus destroys is as it was in the days of Noah.You all may not want to accept this, but it is what the scripture clearly teaches. We live in the transhuman age. The ten toes kingdom will be partly iron and partly clay. That is a hybrid. It will be partly human and partly something else (whatever/whoever the "they" is).In Noah's day there were nephilim in the Earth. Lord Jesus tells us plainly that it will be as it was in the days of Noah when He returns.The transhumanist movement is gaining in acceptance all over the world. Governments all over the world are in a race to create human 2.0. In America President Trump has ,just a couple of days ago,signed an executive order allowing the U.S. to advance A.I. Before anyone ask me to provide links to this information, you can google it for yourself.
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Douggg
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There are two events which Gog/Magog is involved in. The first one, close at hand, is the Ezekiel 38/39 attack on Israel, which just precede the 7 years 70 week of Daniel 9.
A thousand years later is the Revelation 20 attack on Israel from the four directions north south east west, which includes the Gog/Magog nations.
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Hi Ghtan
Very good you are just off by a few verse. the King of the North Becomes Rome when Rome takes over that area. The Antigonus Kingdom was willed to them and in fact the Royal line of this Kingdom was Married into the Julian Line ie Caesar's family Line making them Roman Royalty. Over the Next 100 years the Seleucid Kingdom also became Roman. By the Time of Pompeii's Invasion in the 60's BC it was firmly Roman and stayed so till the 14th century......then Became part of the Ottoman Empire. The Northern Half of this former Kingdom is back in European Control as of 1918.
The Latest this territory was Roman would be 64BC but actually it was much earlier it was in about 140 BC. So you need to move back through the verses to that time.
[32] He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant; but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action.
I believe this verse here represents the end of the Seleucid control of this area After this the King of the North is Roman. that verse is referring to about 160 BC.
The Next verses are about the Saints
[33] And those among the people who are wise shall make many understand, though they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder, for some days. [34] When they fall, they shall receive a little help. And many shall join themselves to them with flattery; [35] and some of those who are wise shall fall, to refine and to cleanse them and to make them white, until the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed.
Just look at the wording this is Christianity. The Help they receive is the Helper ie The Holy Spirit.
[26] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
To refine and make white....Think of Rv 7:
[13] Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?"[14] I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
We are told that while it seems like the end it yet for a later time.
Dan:11:[35] and some of those who are wise shall fall, to refine and to cleanse them and to make them white, until the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed.
Which Matches Jesus exactly....Think of what Jesus told us....
[5] For many will come in my name, saying, `I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray.
[6] And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet.
Daniel 11:33 through 36 is Christianity
If you are interested I can continue with 36 through 40
Very good you are just off by a few verse. the King of the North Becomes Rome when Rome takes over that area. The Antigonus Kingdom was willed to them and in fact the Royal line of this Kingdom was Married into the Julian Line ie Caesar's family Line making them Roman Royalty. Over the Next 100 years the Seleucid Kingdom also became Roman. By the Time of Pompeii's Invasion in the 60's BC it was firmly Roman and stayed so till the 14th century......then Became part of the Ottoman Empire. The Northern Half of this former Kingdom is back in European Control as of 1918.
The Latest this territory was Roman would be 64BC but actually it was much earlier it was in about 140 BC. So you need to move back through the verses to that time.
[32] He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant; but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action.
I believe this verse here represents the end of the Seleucid control of this area After this the King of the North is Roman. that verse is referring to about 160 BC.
The Next verses are about the Saints
[33] And those among the people who are wise shall make many understand, though they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder, for some days. [34] When they fall, they shall receive a little help. And many shall join themselves to them with flattery; [35] and some of those who are wise shall fall, to refine and to cleanse them and to make them white, until the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed.
Just look at the wording this is Christianity. The Help they receive is the Helper ie The Holy Spirit.
[26] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
To refine and make white....Think of Rv 7:
[13] Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?"[14] I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
We are told that while it seems like the end it yet for a later time.
Dan:11:[35] and some of those who are wise shall fall, to refine and to cleanse them and to make them white, until the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed.
Which Matches Jesus exactly....Think of what Jesus told us....
[5] For many will come in my name, saying, `I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray.
[6] And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet.
Daniel 11:33 through 36 is Christianity
If you are interested I can continue with 36 through 40
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ghtan
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Hi there! I think nothing in Dan 11:32 suggests a change in nature of the "he" from that in v 31. It is still the Greek king of the north.
Is there anywhere else in Daniel where a kingdom morphs into another and is still called by the previous name? If not, for consistency sake, the king of the north in verse 40 should still refer to the same person/kingdom as that in verse 28.
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Hello Ghtan
You are missing the whole point of the Thread. Do you believe the "He" after verse 40 is the AC?
Because the this is the AC.
[23]"Thus he said: `As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,which shall be different from all the kingdoms,and it shall devour the whole earth,and trample it down, and break it to pieces.[24] As for the ten horns,out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise,and another shall arise after them;he shall be different from the former ones,and shall put down three kings.[25] He shall speak words against the Most High,and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
We know that Daniel 11 start with the Second and third Kingdoms......So how can the He after verse 40 in Daniel 11 be from the third kingdom Yet in Daniel 7 we are told the AC comes from the Fourth Kingdom.
The Answer is in Daniel 7
[23]"Thus he said: `As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms,and it shall devour the whole earth,
So how does it devour the whole Earth yet according to you the third Kingdom stays intact.
You are missing the whole point of the Thread. Do you believe the "He" after verse 40 is the AC?
Because the this is the AC.
[23]"Thus he said: `As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,which shall be different from all the kingdoms,and it shall devour the whole earth,and trample it down, and break it to pieces.[24] As for the ten horns,out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise,and another shall arise after them;he shall be different from the former ones,and shall put down three kings.[25] He shall speak words against the Most High,and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
We know that Daniel 11 start with the Second and third Kingdoms......So how can the He after verse 40 in Daniel 11 be from the third kingdom Yet in Daniel 7 we are told the AC comes from the Fourth Kingdom.
The Answer is in Daniel 7
[23]"Thus he said: `As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms,and it shall devour the whole earth,
So how does it devour the whole Earth yet according to you the third Kingdom stays intact.
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tranquil
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I think people's insistence on one "antichrist" gets things confused.
Here is how I view it:
All 4 of the Daniel 7 beasts are contemporaneous.
Lion = UK,
eagle = USA,
bear = Russia / Iran,
Leopard = EU with 4 heads,
& the 'dragon kingdom' with 10 horns.
During the 2nd woe, the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses (to make things straight & simple for myself, dusk Nov 27, 2021// 24 Kislev, 5782 through dusk May 10, 2025), the EU/ Leopard 4 heads have dominion over the whole earth (Daniel 7:6 Leopard is given authority to rule = the 3rd bronze kingdom of Daniel 2:39 which rules over the whole earth Daniel 2:39 Interlinear: And after thee doth rise up another kingdom lower than those, and another third kingdom of brass, that doth rule overall the earth.).
The 4th terrible kingdom/ 'dragon kingdom' is the Daniel 8 little horn that arises out of the Leopard 4 heads/ EU global authority. The Daniel 8 little horn is the King of the North, which seems to be Papal Rome (to the North West of Israel). The 10 horns of the dragon kingdom are 'dormant'.
At the start of the 3rd woe/ 7th Trumpet, the 'dragon kingdom' is destroyed & also the Daniel 8 little horn killed. (this is the 'harlot' that is destroyed at the start of the 3rd woe, the 'city that rules the world'). The dragon kingdom has just been destroyed & the Daniel 8 little horn killed. The 10 horns that were dormant during the 2nd woe/ 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, are now kings and have appointed the 11th horn, the Daniel 7 little horn to power. At the start of the 7th Trumpet is the start of the kingdom of God/ kingdom of heaven, which is why Daniel 7:11-12 says
11“I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
12As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
12As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
At Daniel 7:11, the 'dragon kingdom'/ 4th beast kingdom is killed at the 7th Trumpet. Also at the 7th Trumpet, the kingdom of heaven strips the rest of the beasts of their authority, but they still have an extension of life as per verse 12. The 10 horns of the 4th beast kingdom are given power and they appoint the Daniel 7 little horn, the 11th horn that rose up. Daniel 7:12 is the start of the beast from the sea of Revelation 13. These are the 'rest of the beasts' ie, the lion, bear, & leopard.
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Douggg
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The lion with eagles wings is one kingdom coming out the sea. So you would have to go with this...
kingdom 1. Lion = UK, eagles wings = USA,
kingdom 2. bear = Russia / Iran,
kingdom 3. Leopard = EU with 4 heads,
kingdom 4. the 'dragon kingdom' with 10 horns
Do you know how you theory can be proven wrong?
Because Nebuchadnezzar was identified by name to be the head of the first kingdom, chapter 2.
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Raged64
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I'm new to the forum and very much enjoying the conversation. I will take the liberty of plunging in to this thread as my official post on Christianforums.com.
I am curious about the equating of the four beasts of Daniel 7 with present day empires like the US, Russia, Europe, UK and others. The book of Daniel mentions three of the four previous empires through various chapters as being Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. Daniel chapter 2 tells us that all of the four empires are destroyed at the same time by the stone striking the feet of the final kingdom and "all" of the empires come down at the same time. Obviously they will all have to exist at the same time to be destroyed at the same time by the striking stone which is the kingdom of Christ.
However, Daniel 7:12 tells us the first three beasts have their dominion taken away (which is true of Babylon, Persia and Greece) but will get an extension of life granted to them for an appointed period of time. "Appointed period of time" is very similar to other terms depicting Daniel's 70th week. So it is the kingdoms of Babylon, Persian and Greece that get an extension of life. It seems that the simplest way to interpret this is that it will be the land areas and peoples common to these former empires. All of these are in the middle east.
So Daniel sees four individual beasts, with a total of seven heads and ten horns, described as a lion, bear, leopard and terrifying creature coming up out of the sea. The apostle John, in Revelation 13 sees one single beast coming up out of the sea, with seven heads and ten horns, described as having components of a lion, bear, and leopard. It seems to me that John is telling us that the fourth empire is a compilation of the three previous empires. I think it is straight forward to believe that scripture is referring to the same land areas and same peoples associated with those previous empires.
The first three empires are revived to comprise the fourth "terrifying and dreadful" beast with ten horns. I understand in Daniel 7:7 which speaks to the fourth beast devouring the previous beasts leading many to think of Rome as the fourth beast. However, Rome did not conquer all of the areas under the control of the previous three empires. Also, if Rome was the fourth empire, then another empire present at the time of Christ's return would make up a fifth empire which is not consistent with imagery presented in chapters 2 and 7. To say that the coming holy Roman empire is a revived version of the fourth empire, keeping the empire tally at four, really challenges the text of Daniel. It is the first three kingdoms that are granted an extension of life, not the fourth.
Also, it would appear from Daniel 7:23 that the final kingdom of ten horns is established with control over the whole earth before the 11th horn (which Daniel 7:25 describes to be the antichrist figure) comes to power over the final kingdom. The final kingdom devours, treads down and crushes the whole earth which is different from the final kingdom being made up of the whole earth.
It is still possible, I think most likely, that the future world leader, aka antichrist, comes from the Seleucid division of the Greek empire. This would mean he would originate from the area of eastern Turkey, Syria or Iraq.
I am curious about the equating of the four beasts of Daniel 7 with present day empires like the US, Russia, Europe, UK and others. The book of Daniel mentions three of the four previous empires through various chapters as being Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. Daniel chapter 2 tells us that all of the four empires are destroyed at the same time by the stone striking the feet of the final kingdom and "all" of the empires come down at the same time. Obviously they will all have to exist at the same time to be destroyed at the same time by the striking stone which is the kingdom of Christ.
However, Daniel 7:12 tells us the first three beasts have their dominion taken away (which is true of Babylon, Persia and Greece) but will get an extension of life granted to them for an appointed period of time. "Appointed period of time" is very similar to other terms depicting Daniel's 70th week. So it is the kingdoms of Babylon, Persian and Greece that get an extension of life. It seems that the simplest way to interpret this is that it will be the land areas and peoples common to these former empires. All of these are in the middle east.
So Daniel sees four individual beasts, with a total of seven heads and ten horns, described as a lion, bear, leopard and terrifying creature coming up out of the sea. The apostle John, in Revelation 13 sees one single beast coming up out of the sea, with seven heads and ten horns, described as having components of a lion, bear, and leopard. It seems to me that John is telling us that the fourth empire is a compilation of the three previous empires. I think it is straight forward to believe that scripture is referring to the same land areas and same peoples associated with those previous empires.
The first three empires are revived to comprise the fourth "terrifying and dreadful" beast with ten horns. I understand in Daniel 7:7 which speaks to the fourth beast devouring the previous beasts leading many to think of Rome as the fourth beast. However, Rome did not conquer all of the areas under the control of the previous three empires. Also, if Rome was the fourth empire, then another empire present at the time of Christ's return would make up a fifth empire which is not consistent with imagery presented in chapters 2 and 7. To say that the coming holy Roman empire is a revived version of the fourth empire, keeping the empire tally at four, really challenges the text of Daniel. It is the first three kingdoms that are granted an extension of life, not the fourth.
Also, it would appear from Daniel 7:23 that the final kingdom of ten horns is established with control over the whole earth before the 11th horn (which Daniel 7:25 describes to be the antichrist figure) comes to power over the final kingdom. The final kingdom devours, treads down and crushes the whole earth which is different from the final kingdom being made up of the whole earth.
It is still possible, I think most likely, that the future world leader, aka antichrist, comes from the Seleucid division of the Greek empire. This would mean he would originate from the area of eastern Turkey, Syria or Iraq.
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Douggg
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I think you need to look at that a little bit different. Try looking at it as man ruling the world on his own, down through history by those kingdoms. Which all comes to an end when Jesus returns to this earth, bringing the Kingdom of Heaven to have dominion over all nations.
In Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
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tranquil
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"Do you know how you theory can be proven wrong? Because Nebuchadnezzar was identified by name to be the head of the first kingdom, chapter 2."
Daniel 2:44
44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,
45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”
I guess there will be no kingdom of God ever set up in the future, because Nebuchadnezzar is long gone... Or, there is a dual fulfillment with the 1st & 2nd coming.45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”
In the 'days of those kings' means these are contemporaneous kingdoms, all their kingdoms/ kings are alive when the 7th Trumpet arrives.
And anyway, even if Daniel 2 is ancient history, that doesn't mean that the Daniel 7 beasts are not contemporaneous/ existing at the same time.
As to the lion with eagle wings: the US was formed out of Great Britain.
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