Why so many English versions of the Holy Bible?

mark kennedy

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What's your evidence for that exactly? Any scrolls there might have been are long gone.

Every single NT manuscript we have, going back to the fragment of John from 140 AD is from a book (codex) with double-sided pages.

There are some 30,000 extant texts related to the New Testament and none of them were produced from a printing press, they were all on scrolls. I know of two codex and both of them contradict the normative Byzantine scrolls in significant but not dramatic ways. Your being ridiculous.

BLB uses the Strong's numbers. Each Greek verse breakdown gives you Strong's numbers to click on, which then give you lexicon entries and word usage, e.g. G3586
I'm well aware of BLB, thanks, what on earth is your point? I use it almost daily and have never seen anything related to Nestle-Aland. Where are you getting your information?
 
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Radagast

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There are some 30,000 extant texts related to the New Testament and none of them were produced from a printing press, they were all on scrolls.

None of them, afaik, are on scrolls. See the Codex Sinaiticus here: Codex Sinaiticus - Home and see this ancient fragment of John (part of a two-sided codex page, not a scroll, with John 18:31-33 on one side of the fragment and John 18:37-38 on the other side). Obviously these were hand-written books, not printed ones, but they were books, not scrolls.

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Your being ridiculous.

You're being rude.

I'm well aware of BLB, thanks, what on earth is your point? I use it almost daily and have never seen anything related to Nestle-Aland. Where are you getting your information?

If you use the ESV option instead of KJV, you get the mGNT Greek text, which is essentially the same as Nestle-Aland.

And I'm getting my information from the website.
 
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mark kennedy

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None of them, afaik, are on scrolls. See the Codex Sinaiticus here: Codex Sinaiticus - Home and see this ancient fragment of John (part of a two-sided codex page, not a scroll, with John 18:31-33 on one side of the fragment and John 18:37-38 on the other side). Obviously these were hand-written books, not printed ones, but they were books, not scrolls.

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They were papyrus scrolls, your not making any sense. You may consider Euclid's elements to be books but they were originally and for close to a thousand years preserved in the form of papyrus scrolls. I don't know if your struggling with the semantics here or genuinely being contentious but what your telling me doesn't line up with what I happen to know about the history of the Bible, it's not even close:

There are over 6,000 early manuscript copies or portions of the Greek New Testament in existence today. When we include the Latin Vulgate and other early versions, we have over 24,000 early copies or portions of the New Testament (twice that many when including quotes by early church fathers). Some of these date only twenty to thirty years from the original autographs. By comparison, of works by Plato and Aristotle very few copies exist at all, and those were written 1,200 to 1,400 years after the autographs. (What early manuscripts of the Bible exist today?)
You're being rude.

I didn't bust in contradicting clear historical fact, you did.

If you use the ESV option instead of KJV, you get the mGNT Greek text, which is essentially the same as Nestle-Aland.

I've yet to see a dimes worth of difference in the manuscripts over all, they were carefully preserved, copied and transmitted. Historically the church has always had these manuscripts, that were preserved in much the same way sacred writings were in synagogues. Considering Barnabas and John Mark were both Levites this is hardly surprising. The Scriptures didn't disappear into clay jars and dusty libraries only to emerge after hundreds or thousands of years, they are a living testimony since they have been in the custody of living people their entire history, the Hebrew and Christian communities respectively. The ESV is fine, I have a copy. The RSV and AV are not bad at all and at times I've found them to be truer to the original then the KJV, as far as I can tell. That's neither here nor there, but aside from the NKJV I don't have a personal favorite per se, I have things I like about the KJV with regards to the language and integrity of the text, to say nothing of 400 years of scholarship inextricably linked to it.

And I'm getting my information from the website.
I don't know what kind of information your getting from BLB, but I simply use the Strong's referencing to access lexicon and concordance resources. Olive Tree used to have the other manuscripts available but took it down, I guess I would have to buy their software in order to access that again. I haven't needed to and unless your into more in depth exegetical studies BLB works just fine for word searches.

Now I don't know where this conversation went wrong exactly but your correcting things, in harsh terms, that are not in error. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to accept correction, I make mistakes all the time and appreciate it when someone points out my error. But your corrections are not making any sense and unless you are getting far more out of BLB then I am the best resource I've seen is the Strong's number links in their KJV online Bible. If you know how to navigate to other resources, by all means, do tell.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Radagast

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They were papyrus scrolls

No, almost all NT manuscripts are from books (codices). To quote this book: "Likewise in the entire period extending to shortly after the end of the fourth century, out of 111 biblical manuscripts or fragments from Egypt, 99 are codices."

For the fragment of John, try and use your imagination. With a codex (book) page, the text continues over to the other side of the page (and then on to the next page). With a scroll, the text continues on the same side of the papyrus or parchment, further along. The fact that John 18:31-33 is on one side and John 18:37-38 on the other proves that it's from a codex, not a scroll.

You may consider Euclid's elements to be books but they were originally and for close to a thousand years preserved in the form of papyrus scrolls.

Non-Christian manuscripts from the the first few centuries are mostly scrolls. For whatever reason, Christians were enthusiastic early adopters of the codex format. To quote this book: "Christians adopted the codex as the normative format of deliberately produced public copies of scriptural texts."

After about 600, of course, pretty much all literature was in codex format. See this book.

I don't know what kind of information your getting from BLB, but I simply use the Strong's referencing to access lexicon and concordance resources.

All I'm saying is that BLB has that set up both for the KJV/TR combination and for the ESV/mGNT combination.

So the use of Strong's, on its own, is no reason to prefer the KJV.
 
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mark kennedy

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No, almost all NT manuscripts are from books (codices). To quote this book: "Likewise in the entire period extending to shortly after the end of the fourth century, out of 111 biblical manuscripts or fragments from Egypt, 99 are codices."

For the fragment of John, try and use your imagination. With a codex (book) page, the text continues over to the other side of the page (and then on to the next page). With a scroll, the text continues on the same side of the papyrus or parchment, further along. The fact that John 18:31-33 is on one side and John 18:37-38 on the other proves that it's from a codex, not a scroll.

I don't know where you are getting your information but until 1456 all copies of the Bible were copied on papyrus, and paper. Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus are pretty much books, the correct term is manuscripts and I'm not really worried about papyrus scrolls, they deteriorate easily and the point is mute.
Non-Christian manuscripts from the the first few centuries are mostly scrolls. For whatever reason, Christians were enthusiastic early adopters of the codex format. To quote this book: "Christians adopted the codex as the normative format of deliberately produced public copies of scriptural texts."

After about 600, of course, pretty much all literature was in codex format. See this book.

I don't know why you go off on that tangent but it's really beside the point.

All I'm saying is that BLB has that set up both for the KJV/TR combination and for the ESV/mGNT combination.

So the use of Strong's, on its own, is no reason to prefer the KJV.

Sure it is, just click on the Strong's button and there is the number. The TR option might be of interest to an exegetical scholar, which I have yet to see, but it does little for me if it doesn't get back to the original. The BLB does have an ESV but how you manage to cross reference is a mystery to me and you see the Strong's numbers in a lot of references, especially convenient in the BLB version.

Two minor points here as far as I can tell, one is semantics and the other is the availability of resources like Lexicons and dictionaries. Other then that I'm not sure there is a point to be had.
 
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Radagast

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I don't know where you are getting your information

I linked to actual references.

but until 1456 all copies of the Bible were copied on papyrus, and paper

Not quite true. Early copies of the Bible are on papyrus or parchment (the Codex Sinaiticus is on parchment, for example). Paper didn't show up in Europe until the 13th century or thereabouts.

Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus are pretty much books, the correct term is manuscripts

Yes, but in codex (book) format, not scroll format. That's easy to verify with the online Codex Sinaiticus, which has photographs of the actual pages.

As I've said, and backed up with references, virtually all NT manuscripts are codices, not scrolls.

The word "manuscript" simply means "hand-written." Obviously, before printing, everything was hand-written.

The BLB does have an ESV but how you manage to cross reference is a mystery to me

Just click over to BLB's ESV mode in the menus, and you'll see the ESV and mGNT Greek text, all cross-referenced with clickable Strong's numbers. See here, for example.
 
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straykat

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Most languages have between 1-10 versions, with Spanish having around 20ish.

English has 60+ versions. While the majority of other languages will have less than 10 versions, some even less than 5.

It stuck out so I was curious why so many versions and is it neccessary? I can see it causing confusion to new believers.

I have only 2 versions. KJV and ESV. I used to use the NIV when I was brand new, then heard that it was just a commentary of the Bible, I wanted to get the actual word so I got the ESV instead. Then I wanted the original's so I switched the the KJV.

Some may say I'm cynical, but most of it is motivated by greed and crass commercialism. Not necessarily by the translators, but by publishers. It's BIG BUSINESS. It's a multi-Billion dollar industry (and that's not even counting other Christian publishing.. this is just bibles in English.. one subcategory of publishing). And the more you can set yourself apart and "copyright" your "bible", the more money is to be made.
 
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Radagast

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Some may say I'm cynical, but most of it is motivated by greed and crass commercialism. Not necessarily by the translators, but by publishers.

That's slanderous and false.

Most recent translations are published by non-profit organisations, e.g. ESV (Good News Publishers/Crossway), NIV (Biblica/International Bible Society), CSB (LifeWay Christian Resources/Southern Baptist Convention).
 
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straykat

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That's slanderous and false.

Most recent translations are published by non-profit organisations, e.g. ESV (Good News Publishers/Crossway), NIV (Biblica/International Bible Society), CSB (LifeWay Christian Resources/Southern Baptist Convention).

The only actual nonprofit publisher you listed is Good News. I'm not sure how they do it though.

The publisher behind the NIV is Zondervan/Harper-Collins. Which are owned by Rupert Murdoch of all people (he also owns the NKJV via Thomas Nelson.. and some others). This is the same guy behind dozens of well known media like Fox News and Brit tabloids and other propaganda. The publisher behind the CSB is more properly known as Holman (which is why it was first called the Holman Christian Standard before). And just because "Biblica" or some nonprofit sends out tracts or free resources doesn't mean they're the main publishing arm behind your bible. Look at every one of your NIV bibles - it'll say Zondervan on it (or it was commercially licensed to someone like Cambridge... Not GIVEN to them. You can contact them yourselves and get estimates on licensing. You'll pay a pretty penny). Making you concentrate on Biblica is an accounting sleight of hand, giving you warm fuzzy feelings that it's all done with the upmost charity. This is all supposed like the "American Bible Society", right? Meanwhile, Rupert Murdoch becomes a bigger billionaire than he already he is.

"Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." And I'm not here to be slanderous. It's just the truth. Go ahead and look into it more yourself.

edit: See this too: HarperCollins also publishes Anton Lavey's Satanic Bible!

Satanic Bible - Anton La Vey - Paperback

These publishers don't care about you or the Bible they sell. You're just another marketing demographic among many. How does it feel to be seen as no different than a Satanist?
 
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Radagast

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The publisher behind the NIV is Zondervan/Harper-Collins.

No, the NIV is published by Biblica/International Bible Society, a nonprofit. Zondervan is licensed to print copies of the NIV within the USA by Biblica/International Bible Society. Money raised by Biblica/International Bible Society is used for their Bible Translation and other activities.

And the CSB is published by LifeWay Christian Resources, the nonprofit publishing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention. There is actually no such publisher as "Holman."

These publishers don't care about you or the Bible they sell. You're just another marketing demographic among many. How does it feel to be seen as no different than a Satanist?

Only an enemy of the Gospel would call the NIV or NKJV Satanic.
 
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straykat

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No, the NIV is published by Biblica/International Bible Society, a nonprofit. Zondervan is licensed to print copies of the NIV within the USA by Biblica/International Bible Society.

And the CSB is published by LifeWay Christian Resources, the nonprofit publishing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention. There is actually no such publisher as "Holman."



Only an enemy of the Gospel and of Christ would call the NIV or NKJV Satanic.

I didn't even say they were Satanic. What are you talking about? I said the publishers involved are profiteers, and don't differentiate you from any other market. You also keep bringing translation committees up, when I explicitly said the translation committees were not necessarily at fault. I literally said this in the original post:

Some may say I'm cynical, but most of it is motivated by greed and crass commercialism. Not necessarily by the translators, but by publishers.

That you think I'm an enemy of Christ for pointing this out and pretending that big corporations aren't circulating all of this is the end of conversation though. I don't know how you've managed it, but somehow you think these are all charitable enterprises.

I hope you hear me out and calm down, but you've literally put me in the lowest of the lowest categories. As if I'm suddenly some cannablistic pedophile conducting blood magic. It's completely impossible to ever even have a modicum of decency in your eyes once I'm considered an enemy of Christ. Even I didn't call these publishers that. I said they were profiteers.

And no longer is the matter confessing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Resurrection of the Dead the crux of our Salvation (which I do wholeheartedly). No, you've decided that you can condemn people to hell for being concerned about publishing connections. This is suddenly the centerpoint of Salvation apparently. I'm sorry that you've gone off the deep end to this extent, but I hope you aren't disappointed when our short lives end.. and if Christ is faithful and true (and he is), when you see my face in heaven. I hope it doesn't make you puke that I'm not "evil" and the same blood of Christ washes us both. Just because I care about you and where these connections lead doesn't mean I called YOU a Satanist (again, I never even said that).. nor does it mean I'm an enemy of Christ. Christ is Christ. Rupert Murdoch is not Christ. Learn how to differentiate them.
 
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robycop3

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I didn't even say they were Satanic. What are you talking about? I said the publishers involved are profiteers, and don't differentiate you from any other market. You also keep bringing translation committees up, when I explicitly said the translation committees were not necessarily at fault. I literally said this in the original post:



That you think I'm an enemy of Christ for pointing this out and pretending that big corporations aren't circulating all of this is the end of conversation though. I don't know how you've managed it, but somehow you think these are all charitable enterprises.

I hope you hear me out and calm down, but you've literally put me in the lowest of the lowest categories. As if I'm suddenly some cannablistic pedophile conducting blood magic. It's completely impossible to ever even have a modicum of decency in your eyes once I'm considered an enemy of Christ. Even I didn't call these publishers that. I said they were profiteers.

And no longer is the matter confessing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Resurrection of the Dead the crux of our Salvation (which I do wholeheartedly). No, you've decided that you can condemn people to hell for being concerned about publishing connections. This is suddenly the centerpoint of Salvation apparently. I'm sorry that you've gone off the deep end to this extent, but I hope you aren't disappointed when our short lives end.. and if Christ is faithful and true (and he is), when you see my face in heaven. I hope it doesn't make you puke that I'm not "evil" and the same blood of Christ washes us both. Just because I care about you and where these connections lead doesn't mean I called YOU a Satanist (again, I never even said that).. nor does it mean I'm an enemy of Christ. Christ is Christ. Rupert Murdoch is not Christ. Learn how to differentiate them.

Virtually all Bible publishers/printers make Bible copies for profit. When the KJV was made, KJ's royal printer, Robt. Barker, printed & sold it for profit.

I mean, hey, printers/publishers gotta eat same as us, & must make money to buy food!
 
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Mathetes66

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The biggest reason for many translations is that almost all are copyrighted and in order not to violate the 'plagiarism laws' one must have a Bible text different enough from others so it can be copyrighted and not fall into plagiarism. And when copyrighted they get paid for all those Bibles sold. A minor reason is to try & get a more readable Bible.

However, make sure you know that different Bibles have different Hebrew, Greek & Aramaic manuscripts they base their translation on: Textus Receptus, Byzantine Majority, Alexandrian Minority, Masoretic Text, Septuagint translation, Qumran manuscripts & recently found papyri, etc.
 
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david shelby

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Because different translations have different denominational biases. Calvinists bias the translation to make it sound like predestination. For instance, Psalm 139:13-16,

NIV and most modern Christian translations has massive Calvinist bias here, sounding like God predestined all the days of the Psalmist's life before he was born.

KJV and older English Christian translations (Coverdale, etc.) sound like its saying that God predetermined a schedule for the formation of the body parts in the womb. (This is also the position taken in most Jewish translations, and obviously contextually correct, as this is the OLD Testament.)

That brings up an important point: Jewish translations. We tend to forget that those exist. So there are even more translations than we normally think. Obviously Jews are not going to use a translation filled with Calvinist fatalist bias any more than non-Calvinist Christians are. In fact, non-Calvinist Christians are more likely to grit their teeth and bear such a translation; Jews are not.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The biggest reason for many translations is that almost all are copyrighted and in order not to violate the 'plagiarism laws' one must have a Bible text different enough from others so it can be copyrighted and not fall into plagiarism. And when copyrighted they get paid for all those Bibles sold. A minor reason is to try & get a more readable Bible.

However, make sure you know that different Bibles have different Hebrew, Greek & Aramaic manuscripts they base their translation on: Textus Receptus, Byzantine Majority, Alexandrian Minority, Masoretic Text, Septuagint translation, Qumran manuscripts & recently found papyri, etc.
Good advice....................
 
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robycop3

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The biggest reason for many translations is that almost all are copyrighted and in order not to violate the 'plagiarism laws' one must have a Bible text different enough from others so it can be copyrighted and not fall into plagiarism. And when copyrighted they get paid for all those Bibles sold. A minor reason is to try & get a more readable Bible.

However, make sure you know that different Bibles have different Hebrew, Greek & Aramaic manuscripts they base their translation on: Textus Receptus, Byzantine Majority, Alexandrian Minority, Masoretic Text, Septuagint translation, Qumran manuscripts & recently found papyri, etc.

The KJV has a Crown copyright in Britain. Its holders are the Universities of Oxford & Cambridge, the Ayers & Spottiswoode Co, & Harper Collins, owned by Ruppert Murdoch, which also publishes the NIV & "Satanic Bible", among others. The KJV has been under Crown copyright in Britain since its release.

As for manuscripts, none of us were around when they were made, & we don't know who made most of them, when, where, or what sources they used; thus we cannot dismiss too many of them. It's apparent that GOD preserved them all to this day.
 
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Dr. Jack

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It is my belief that there are many versions of the English Bible for at least two major reasons:

1) Prior to 1881 all Reformation Bibles (except Wycliffe's) were based upon the Byzantine MSS.

However, after the production of the KJ, man named Johann Semler arrived on the scene of history. This is what the Encyclopedia Britannica says concerning Semler:

"Semler was a disciple of the rationalist Siegmund Jakob Baumgarten, whom he succeeded on his death in 1757 as head of the theological faculty. Seeking to study biblical texts scientifically, Semler evolved an undogmatic and strictly historical interpretation of Scripture that provoked strong opposition. He was the first to deny, and to offer substantial evidence supporting his denial, that the entirety of the text of Old and New Testaments was divinely inspired and fully correct. He challenged the divine authority of the biblical canon, which he reexamined in order to determine the sequence of composition of biblical books, their nature, and their manner of transmission. From this work he drew a crucial distinction between an earlier, Jewish form of Christianity and a later, broader form."
Johann Salomo Semler | German theologian

Notice the words, "He was the first to deny, and to offer substantial evidence supporting his denial, that the entirety of the text of Old and New Testaments was divinely inspired and fully correct. He challenged the divine authority of the biblical canon ... "

Did you notice, "Semler was a disciple of the rationalist Siegmund Jakob Baumgarten, whom he succeeded on his death in 1757 as head of the theological faculty"?

What Semler actually believed was that only part of the Scriptures were of Divine origin. Matters such as the creation account, and the supernatural events, such as the miracles of Jesus, were not inspired by God; but rather, merely the tales of men. Therefore, he thought it his purpose to sort the Divine from the not so Divine. Hence, Textual Criticism.

Semler had a disciple named Johann Jakob Griesbach. Yes, the very same Griesbach, along with Bengel and Hort, (and yes Westcott), that produced the rules that Textual Criticism still uses today.

The 1881 Greek Text was written for the sole purpose of giving the ERV of 1881 a new Greek Text to be based upon; because Griesbach, Bengel, Westcott, and Hort, rejected the inspiration of all Scripture in the same manner that Semler did.

This must be understood, Higher Textual Criticism involves determining whether or not a Biblical text is "authentic" or not.

BUT, when the people making the rules that determine what is authentic, and what is NOT authentic already subscribe to the idea that much of the Scriptures (such as the creation account, and the miracles of Jesus are NOT of Divine origin, this means that these people already have a prejudice against the very Scripture they were entrusted to be stewards of. Is this something we as Christians should find acceptable?

2) The second reason for so many English Bibles is the idea that Dynamic Equivalence in it's loosest form is acceptable as a means of translation. One of the most famous verses in Scripture has been incorrectly translated in many Bibles causing a clear contradiction not to mention, making the verse, theologically incorrect.

When we as English speaking people enter a church which is using numerous versions of the Bible; how do we expect the people to follow along, or not wonder why the text of their Bible is so different from the one being used in the pulpit?
 
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