A question on Sacraments and Grace

Markie Boy · Feb 14, 2019

I have heard plenty of talk on Sacramental Grace, but there is a question that nags at me.

I know plenty of people who receive sacraments regularly, but are not the kindest or most holy people.

I also know those that receive no sacraments, yet strive and do in many ways follow Jesus. Often being much more kind and at times honest, than those that receive sacraments.

When I look at the two groups I know, I don't really see a difference between either.

It seems God's grace is abundantly available outside the sacraments for those choosing to follow Him.

Any thoughts?

All4Christ · Feb 14, 2019

Markie Boy said:
I have heard plenty of talk on Sacramental Grace, but there is a question that nags at me.

I know plenty of people who receive sacraments regularly, but are not the kindest or most holy people.

I also know those that receive no sacraments, yet strive and do in many ways follow Jesus. Often being much more kind and at times honest, than those that receive sacraments.

When I look at the two groups I know, I don't really see a difference between either.

It seems God's grace is abundantly available outside the sacraments for those choosing to follow Him.

Any thoughts?

A common thought among Orthodoxy is that we know where the God is but we don’t limit God’s grace to that. God is abundantly merciful and loves mankind. He is not limited to the forms of grace we are given through the Church, though they certainly are a critical thing for us to partake of. Also, remember that we if partake of the Eucharist unworthily, it is to our detriment. It isn’t a “get out of jail free” card or an automatic portioning out of God’s grace. Sorry for the short response, just realized I have a meeting starting in a few minutes.

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 14, 2019

Markie Boy said:
I have heard plenty of talk on Sacramental Grace, but there is a question that nags at me.

I know plenty of people who receive sacraments regularly, but are not the kindest or most holy people.

I also know those that receive no sacraments, yet strive and do in many ways follow Jesus. Often being much more kind and at times honest, than those that receive sacraments.

When I look at the two groups I know, I don't really see a difference between either.

It seems God's grace is abundantly available outside the sacraments for those choosing to follow Him.

Any thoughts?

There are people who put their trust in sacraments and think that because they have attended Sunday service and gone through the rituals and ceremonies, they are right with God. But if they put their trust in those things before knowing that they are helpless sinners putting their full trust in Christ as Saviour and Lord, then they are not converted and still lost.

There are those who who have put their trust in Christ alone to save them, and enjoy the sacraments, observing them from their hearts and not just mumbling the liturgy with their mouths, and they are truly converted and saved because they put Christ first and the sacraments as their way of expressing their true hearts to Him.

~Anastasia~ · Feb 14, 2019

An important thing to remember too is that we must COOPERATE with the grace of God.

For people who have no access to the Sacraments, we wouldn't say that God cannot help them otherwise. Especially remembering that God desires to save people.

For people who receive the Sacraments with a wrong disposition, or not cooperating with God, they can become physically (and possibly spiritually?) worse off than they would have been otherwise.

Ideally of course one would have access to the Sacraments AND cooperating with God.

ArmyMatt · Feb 14, 2019

for those outside of the Church, grace works from without. for those inside of the Church, grace works from within. man is created for grace to work from within.

but either way, grace is working.

Markie Boy · Feb 14, 2019

You know - you guys just make sense. Why is there not more Orthodox parishes around?

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 14, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
for those outside of the Church, grace works from without. for those inside of the Church, grace works from within. man is created for grace to work from within.

but either way, grace is working.

We must realise that observing the Sacraments do not save anyone, nor do they make a person acceptable to God. It is only through going through the narrow gate of faith in Christ alone that saves a person. The Sacraments are part of the developmental process of sanctification. For example, the Eucharist is made up of symbols to remember the death of Jesus on the cross. It is not a sacrifice, nor is the real presence of Christ in it. People who trust in it as a continual sacrifice to cleanse them from sin, are replacing faith in Christ, and putting their faith in the Eucharist to save them. This makes the ritual meaningless and vain. What does make it meaningful is to approach it with praise and thankfulness that Jesus gave His life and shed His blood for us on the cross, and we take the bread and drink the wine in remembrance of what He has done for us.

ArmyMatt · Feb 14, 2019

Oscarr said:
We must realise that observing the Sacraments do not save anyone, nor do they make a person acceptable to God. It is only through going through the narrow gate of faith in Christ alone that saves a person. The Sacraments are part of the developmental process of sanctification. For example, the Eucharist is made up of symbols to remember the death of Jesus on the cross. It is not a sacrifice, nor is the real presence of Christ in it. People who trust in it as a continual sacrifice to cleanse them from sin, are replacing faith in Christ, and putting their faith in the Eucharist to save them. This makes the ritual meaningless and vain. What does make it meaningful is to approach it with praise and thankfulness that Jesus gave His life and shed His blood for us on the cross, and we take the bread and drink the wine in remembrance of what He has done for us.

that is not our understanding of the Eucharist at all. this is the Orthodox subforum.

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 14, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
that is not our understanding of the Eucharist at all. this is the Orthodox subforum.

I understand that. I know that the Orthodox view of the Eucharist is different from the Church of England Eucharist. So I know better than to debate the issue or to put anyone down for believing what they want to believe. All I have done is to state what I see in the New Testament of what Jesus and Paul actually said about it. I understand that since the First Century traditions in the Eastern and Western churches have added to it, adding a sacrificial element to it.

ArmyMatt · Feb 14, 2019

Oscarr said:
I understand that. I know that the Orthodox view of the Eucharist is different from the Church of England Eucharist. So I know better than to debate the issue or to put anyone down for believing what they want to believe. All I have done is to state what I see in the New Testament of what Jesus and Paul actually said about it. I understand that since the First Century traditions in the Eastern and Western churches have added to it, adding a sacrificial element to it.

really? what was actually said in old Greek?

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 14, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
really? what was actually said in old Greek?

Be clear that I am not debating on this forum, but I will answer your question. I don't know what was said in the original Greek. If Jesus and Paul used the Greek word for "sacrifice" in terms of the Eucharist, then I will concede.

ArmyMatt · Feb 14, 2019

Oscarr said:
Be clear that I am not debating on this forum, but I will answer your question. I don't know what was said in the original Greek. If Jesus and Paul used the Greek word for "sacrifice" in terms of the Eucharist, then I will concede.

well, if you don't know the original Greek, what evidence do you have that we added anything? like something specific from history.

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 14, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
well, if you don't know the original Greek, what evidence do you have that we added anything? like something specific from history.

I can't answer that question because I am assuming that the Orthodox view of the Eucharist is basically the same as the Romanist one - that it is a continual sacrifice and that the real presence of Christ is in the blood and the host. I may be wrong, of course, and anyone with a more in-depth knowledge of the Orthodox doctrine of the Eucharist will certainly put me right.

ArmyMatt · Feb 14, 2019

Oscarr said:
I can't answer that question because I am assuming that the Orthodox view of the Eucharist is basically the same as the Romanist one - that it is a continual sacrifice and that the real presence of Christ is in the blood and the host. I may be wrong, of course, and anyone with a more in-depth knowledge of the Orthodox doctrine of the Eucharist will certainly put me right.

that isn't our understanding. we don't continually sacrifice Christ. through the Eucharist, we commune with the One Christ's Body and Blood, which is outside of time, since Christ is outside of time. the sacrifice only happened once at Calvary, and we tap into that one sacrifice.

Light of the East · Feb 14, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
that isn't our understanding. we don't continually sacrifice Christ. through the Eucharist, we commune with the One Christ's Body and Blood, which is outside of time, since Christ is outside of time. the sacrifice only happened once at Calvary, and we tap into that one sacrifice.

Interesting. I have been wondering lately about this difference and am glad to see a thread discussing it. It seems that the difference between the East and West in this understanding has to do with the juridical theology which grew out of the schism in the West. Fr. John Strickland's excellent history of Christendom clearly points out how the West went more and more to the understanding of the Eucharist as sacrifice, with all the attendant symbolism in Western theology The West has a God who is constantly angry with us, offended, and needs propitiation, hence the need for a constant sacrifice to appease His anger.

The East, as I understand it (and I am open to correct on all this post) sees salvation as participation in the resurrected Christ who is present here and now sacramentally, not as sacrifice, but as Fr. Strickland says, as part of paradise being made present sacramentally. This is interesting, but I am still trying to get my mind completely around it, being raised with a very Western mindset most of my life, and even in the supposedly "Orthodox" Eastern Catholic Church.

ArmyMatt · Feb 14, 2019

Light of the East said:
Interesting. I have been wondering lately about this difference and am glad to see a thread discussing it. It seems that the difference between the East and West in this understanding has to do with the juridical theology which grew out of the schism in the West. Fr. John Strickland's excellent history of Christendom clearly points out how the West went more and more to the understanding of the Eucharist as sacrifice, with all the attendant symbolism in Western theology The West has a God who is constantly angry with us, offended, and needs propitiation, hence the need for a constant sacrifice to appease His anger.

The East, as I understand it (and I am open to correct on all this post) sees salvation as participation in the resurrected Christ who is present here and now sacramentally, not as sacrifice, but as Fr. Strickland says, as part of paradise being made present sacramentally. This is interesting, but I am still trying to get my mind completely around it, being raised with a very Western mindset most of my life, and even in the supposedly "Orthodox" Eastern Catholic Church.

it's not something you can get your mind around. that's one of the problems with the West, they try to explain and rationalize what can only be experienced.

that said, you are on the right track.

Light of the East · Feb 14, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
it's not something you can get your mind around. that's one of the problems with the West, they try to explain and rationalize what can only be experienced.

that said, you are on the right track.

You are correct in this and it is one of the things that Fr. John has made very clear in his podcasts as he has shown the divergence of the West from the East with the rise of scholasticism and the effects it had upon Western Christianity. And it is something I am striving to learn with the aid of the Jesus Prayer and sitting quietly before the Lord.

ArmyMatt · Feb 14, 2019

Light of the East said:
You are correct in this and it is one of the things that Fr. John has made very clear in his podcasts as he has shown the divergence of the West from the East with the rise of scholasticism and the effects it had upon Western Christianity. And it is something I am striving to learn with the aid of the Jesus Prayer and sitting quietly before the Lord.

as important as the Jesus Prayer is, pure prayer is found in the Liturgy. only by truly communing of Christ's Body and Blood can the Jesus Prayer help us.

Light of the East · Feb 15, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
as important as the Jesus Prayer is, pure prayer is found in the Liturgy. only by truly communing of Christ's Body and Blood can the Jesus Prayer help us.

Okay......then that raises the sticky question (sticky because it could offend someone) if I am not in the Church, then according to the Fathers, I am not getting the Eucharist and all that I am doing is pretty well useless.

For instance:

Letter 188 of Saint Basil: "The Cathari are schismatics; but it seemed good to the ancient authorities, I mean Cyprian and our own Firmilianus, to reject all these, Cathari, Encratites, and Hydroparastatæ, by one common condemnation, because the origin of separation arose through schism, and those who had apostatized from the Church had no longer on them the grace of the Holy Spirit, for it ceased to be imparted when the continuity was broken".

AMM · Feb 15, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
as important as the Jesus Prayer is, pure prayer is found in the Liturgy. only by truly communing of Christ's Body and Blood can the Jesus Prayer help us.

I thought I read somewhere that pure prayer is what LOTE said - sitting in the presence of the Lord, usually through the practice of the Jesus Prayer. To be honest, I thought that seemed a bit odd, and I'm much more comfortable saying that pure prayer is the Liturgy, and partaking of Christ's Body and Blood, though

A question on Sacraments and Grace

Well-Known Member

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙

Senior Veteran

† Handmaid of God †

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Regular Member

Senior Veteran

Regular Member

Senior Veteran

Regular Member

Senior Veteran

Regular Member

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir

Regular Member

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir

Regular Member

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir

A Beggar

Similar threads