No assurance of Salvation is not equal to No Salvation

Albion said:

I get the whole. We all get the whole. But the question of works in relation to faith is not "minutia."

But the questions weren't meant to grill any individual. I am happy enough to leave it open for any others who may choose to offer an answer.

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So did get the "quality" part vs. the "quantity" part which was your initial query?

David Cabrera said:

What do you mean?

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do you have you believe you have salvation

This isn't exactly spiritual rocket surgery.

I would never tell another person that they had to repent in exactly the same manner as I did to be saved so may years ago. I would never say that they had to shed exactly the same number of tears that I shed when I repented and accepted Jesus as my Savior around a camp fire in a little Baptist Bible camp 6 decades ago.

Nor would I ever tell a person that the sealing Holy Spirit was in them for sure if I saw them leading a habitual sinful life. Likewise - I would never tell a person that they had to live exactly as I have and do or they were not saved or could lose their salvation as a result.

I would never tell a person that they did not have true "saving faith" just because they lacked assurance of salvation in their heart.

I suppose a person could think that they had to live up to a certain standard or they would not be saved in the end - and not necessarily lack saving faith as a result. God will judge that.

I just know one thing.

To believe that the creator of the universe became a man and laid down His life for my salvation - and to cast all of my hopes and dreams for salvation for now and eternity on the shedding of that man's precious blood in stead of any good works I could possibly muster in my life ----- is an act and belief so awesome and powerful and an act so unlike anything else a person could or will do in his entire life - that it could hardly be mistaken for anything else.

If you "think" you've done it or are doing it - you probably have not - and, if you have not or are not, you are still in your sins and the blood of Christ's sacrifice does not cleans you nor is He interceding on your behalf in Heaven.

But any person can change that status and gain assurance right now simply by resting in the shed blood of Jesus Christ as his only hope of salvation - forsaking any works he could or will do to earn that salvation.

Communicate to God from the depths of your heart what you are doing and in whom you are placing your hope of salvation against the day of judgement and you will pass from death to life and will never again come into condemnation.

Adopt any other form of religion other than salvation by grace - even if it includes Jesus Christ somehow - and you will not be saved when you meet God face to face no matter how many people assure you that you are or will.

David Cabrera said:

I feel a lot of times when I tell someone that I don't have assurance of Salvation, they believe "I don't have a relationship with Jesus", but it is the opposite, I know that I have to work out my salvation every day.

What is your opinion?

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Skimming through the first page I wondered if you'd let them know that's from Paul.

Hazelelponi said:

I've "wanted" to serve God my whole life. I've wanted to please Him. I've had a life of "works" in this direction my whole life.

I was even at one time quite pleased with my own righteousness (granted i was younger then, and fairly dumb)

Yet... if I had died 5 years ago I would have gone to hell.

The only work that mattered toward my salvation was Christ, and that was His work.

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Yes!
Philippians 3:3
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—

His student said:

This isn't exactly spiritual rocket surgery.

I would never tell another person that they had to repent in exactly the same manner as I did to be saved so may years ago. I would never say that they had to shed exactly the same number of tears that I shed when I repented and accepted Jesus as my Savior around a camp fire in a little Baptist Bible camp 6 decades ago.

Nor would I ever tell a person that the sealing Holy Spirit was in them for sure if I saw them leading a habitual sinful life. Likewise - I would never tell a person that they had to live exactly as I have and do or they were not saved or could lose their salvation as a result.

I would never tell a person that they did not have true "saving faith" just because they lacked assurance of salvation in their heart.

I suppose a person could think that they had to live up to a certain standard or they would not be saved in the end - and not necessarily lack saving faith as a result. God will judge that.

I just know one thing.

To believe that the creator of the universe became a man and laid down His life for my salvation - and to cast all of my hopes and dreams for salvation for now and eternity on the shedding of that man's precious blood in stead of any good works I could possibly muster in my life ----- is an act and belief so awesome and powerful and an act so unlike anything else a person could or will do in his entire life - that it could hardly be mistaken for anything else.

If you "think" you've done it or are doing it - you probably have not - and, if you have not or are not, you are still in your sins and the blood of Christ's sacrifice does not cleans you nor is He interceding on your behalf in Heaven.

But any person can change that status and gain assurance right now simply by resting in the shed blood of Jesus Christ as his only hope of salvation - forsaking any works he could or will do to earn that salvation.

Communicate to God from the depths of your heart what you are doing and in whom you are placing your hope of salvation against the day of judgement and you will pass from death to life and will never again come into condemnation.

Adopt any other form of religion other than salvation by grace - even if it includes Jesus Christ somehow - and you will not be saved when you meet God face to face no matter how many people assure you that you are or will.

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I believe you have captured what Jesus meant by:
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Matthew 7:1-2

royal priest said:

Yes!
Philippians 3:3
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—

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I was also just above your post thinking of that same passage!

Let's read it together:

◄ Philippians 3 ►
New International Version
No Confidence in the Flesh

1Further, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you. 2Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh. 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.

If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more:5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

7But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in a Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

David Cabrera said:

I just got confused

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lol, I must have too... one more time... do you have belief that you are saved?

David Cabrera said:

Obviously they are saved through Christ. If you want to refute that, you can go to my other thread. I won't keep answer here.

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Please explain. I’m not going to your enclave.

The Spirit through Paul --

1 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.
...
1 Further, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you. 2 Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence.

If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 2 NIV and 3

Tree of Life said:

Assurance does not equal salvation. One can have salvation and not be assured. But assurance is possible and we are called to attain to it.

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Can one have assurance without salvation? There is the real question.

chevyontheriver said:

Can one have assurance without salvation? There is the real question.

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One cannot be assured of something that is not true. There is something we call "false assurance". This is self-delusion and not real assurance.

Tree of Life said:

One cannot be assured of something that is not true. There is something we call "false assurance". This is self-delusion and not real assurance.

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How does one have assurance that one's assurance is not 'false assurance'? Or, to put it differently, what good is assurance if it might be false?

chevyontheriver said:

How does one have assurance that one's assurance is not 'false assurance'? Or, to put it differently, what good is assurance if it might be false?

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This line of critique strikes me as an extreme skepticism that I think we would both reject. An extreme skeptic can say of knowledge: "If our beliefs might be wrong, then we can never know that we know anything." Would you agree with this in an epistemological realm?

Tree of Life said:

This line of critique strikes me as an extreme skepticism that I think we would both reject. An extreme skeptic can say of knowledge: "If our beliefs might be wrong, then we can never know that we know anything." Would you agree with this in an epistemological realm?

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One should always be skeptical to a degree. There are many things one knows only provisionally, that is presuming a great many other things are also true. Common sense allows us to get by. But if we had to prove everything we just could not do it.

Might you be falsely assured? You are betting your immortal soul on it. Maybe you are not falsely assured, and all is fine. Maybe not. The cost of being wrong, isn't it rather high?

chevyontheriver said:

One should always be skeptical to a degree. There are many things one knows only provisionally, that is presuming a great many other things are also true. Common sense allows us to get by. But if we had to prove everything we just could not do it.

Might you be falsely assured? You are betting your immortal soul on it. Maybe you are not falsely assured, and all is fine. Maybe not. The cost of being wrong, isn't it rather high?

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I wouldn't bet my immortal soul on my subjective assurance. I would bet my immortal soul on the objective promises of Jesus. Assurance is only possible because Jesus' promises are unfailing.

Tree of Life said:

I wouldn't bet my immortal soul on my subjective assurance. I would bet my immortal soul on the objective promises of Jesus. Assurance is only possible because Jesus' promises are unfailing.

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At least you are betting your soul on Christ and not a feeling.