ALL habitual sinners are NOT in a saved state

Oldmantook · Feb 13, 2019

aiki said:
Yes, really. And it is because I have paid careful attention to the wording of the verses that I come to the conclusions I have.

??? I didn't say the verses weren't addressed to believers.

??? Plainly? How so? I didn't say James wasn't addressing Christians, only that his comments in the verses in question pertained, in part, to the wayward lost in their midst.

I never said the passage speaks to non-believers only that it speaks about them.

I have a friend who smokes. He knows the truth that smoking produces cancer in most smokers. Yet, he continues to smoke. Insofar as he does, he could be said to be wandering from the truth. So, too, the non-believer who hears the truth of the Gospel but does not accept it or act in accord with it. He also is wandering from the truth.

Do I have to be in a tree to be able to wander from it? No. I can stand next to it, even admire it and touch it, and then I can walk - or wander - away from the tree. It is not necessary that I actually be in the tree before I can do so. So, too, with the truth. A lost person doesn't have to be in the truth to wander from it. He has only to be in proximity to it in order to wander from it.

As I've just pointed out, wandering from a thing does not require being in that thing first. I can wander from car to car on a car dealer's lot without ever getting into any of them. What necessitates your claim above? Why must someone be in the truth before they can wander from it? You haven't explained this; you've only asserted it.

By the way, in the passage in question from the book of James, it is never said that the "sinner" was in the truth before wandering from it.

Again, an unsupported bald assertion. I've explained that wandering from something doesn't require first being in it. I have given examples but can give many more, if you like. How is it, exactly, that wandering from God's truth requires first being in it? Why can't a person wander from it after merely being in proximity to it?

James doesn't go into detail, does he? It sounds, though, like the saved person pursues the wandering lost person and convinces them to take a serious second look at the Gospel. If they succeed and the lost person is converted, a soul has been saved from death and a multitude of sins covered.

I can walk up to a car on a car dealer's lot and check it out - you know, kick the tires, look in the windows, admire the paint job and body styling - and then I can wander off to look at a nearby car. I can do this again and again on the car lot. If a salesman brings me back to the first car I looked at to consider it again, is it reasonable to claim I had bought the first car, that it was my possession? Of course not. But this is the very sort of thing you appear to be arguing for concerning those who have checked out the Gospel and wandered from it.

Repeating your mistaken claim doesn't make it true.

??? So what? A lost person who wanders from the truth of the Gospel is, obviously, still living in sin and has a multitude of sins that need to be covered.

No, it only means the "sinner" never had eternal life and was headed for an eternity in hell. We are told this is the eternal end of the unrepentant lost again and again in Scripture. Asserting that "saved a soul from death" must mean "no longer having eternal life" is reading into the passage what you want to think, not reading the passage as it is. James never even hints that he's talking about a saved person being lost in the passage in question. Such a construction you have imposed on the passage. It is not there in a plain, natural reading of it.

Actually, I have shown that I do not.

Which you have not yet proven but only asserted.

Your reply is full of excuses without addressing the text. Quite revealing. In the NT, brethren always refers to believers - never the unsaved - so your claim is preposterous. If you don't believe James, perhaps you will believe Jesus but somehow I doubt it given your persistence. In the story of the lost sheep in Luke 15 the lost sheep is referred to as a SINNER (v.7). This lost sheep/sinner was originally a part of the 99 other sheep who remained in the flock. This flock is described as those who NEED NO REPENTANCE (v.7). So originally this sheep was part of the other 99 who needed no repentance (believers) but becomes lost and is now a "sinner" in need of repentance. So your claim that a saved person cannot be lost is contradicted by the words of Jesus himself. I prefer to believe Jesus.

BCsenior · Feb 13, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
And how do you discern such a thing?
I can't even prove if she has ever been to McDonald's and back, much less, hell.

Those who have received Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit can be given (by the Spirit) any of the nine spiritual power gifts, such as "discerning of spirits",
whenever it is required.

I sincerely encourage everyone to seek this "anointing".
Matthew 7:
7 Ask, and it will be given to you;
seek, and you will find;
knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

And don't forget about the persistent widow!

P.S. Notice that all 12 disciples were "evil"?

BCsenior · Feb 13, 2019

JAYPT said:
Ah..... thats not exactly correct, there are many passages in the bible for the unbeliever, its for both. Pauls letters were to churches and he called them saints. I am sure there were many people in those churches that weren't saved (just like today) and it was for them all.

I actually meant that the Bible is of
absolutely NO use to the non-elect.
I.E. those who do NOT make it to heaven ...
did not, cannot, will not, etc. gain anything from it.

BCsenior · Feb 13, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Then you are saying we don't have to do good in order to make it to heaven? We only need to have faith?

Kenny'sID said:
Then you (JAYPT) are saying we don't have to do good in order to make it to heaven? We only need to have faith?

Some people have been deceived into believing in
hyper grace, easy grace, grace only, etc.
This, and such false doctrines as eternal security,
are from the very pits of hell.

Satan is the greatest liar and deceiver in history
“the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4)
“the ruler of this world” (John 12:31, etc.)
“the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19)
“him who had the power of death,
that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14)
“he was a murderer from the beginning”
(John 8:44)
“the devil has sinned from the beginning”
(1 John 3:8)
“the accuser of our brethren (believers in Christ)” (Revelation 12:10)
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary
the devil walks about like a roaring lion,
seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8)

Satan is “the ruler of the demons” (Matthew 12:24), and he is the leader of “principalities … powers … rulers of the darkness of this age … the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” (Ephesians 6:12)

BCsenior · Feb 13, 2019

Pethesedzao said:
Not tithing will not send one to Hell. One's salvation would therefore be dependant on works and not grace.

Yes, I'm troubled by this tithing deal too!

However, you really need to understand that ...
salvation is a process which requires faith + works!

There are many NT verses which teach BOTH.

Pethesedzao · Feb 13, 2019

BCsenior said:
Yes, I'm troubled by this tithing deal too!

However, you really need to understand that ...
salvation is a process which requires faith + works!

There are many NT verses which teach BOTH.

We should set aside a portion of what God has prospered us with though

Kenny'sID · Feb 13, 2019

BCsenior said:
Those who have received Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit can be given (by the Spirit) any of the nine spiritual power gifts, such as "discerning of spirits",
whenever it is required.

But my same discerning abilities tell me they have not gone to Hell and back, so one of us is wrong.

BCsenior · Feb 13, 2019

Pethesedzao said:
We should set aside a portion of what God has prospered us with though

Yes, for sure ... but one of the 10 or so testimonies
about visiting hell that I watched talked about a person
being there who only tithed 2.5% instead of 10%.
Then, of course, he was robbing God, right?
Or, not right? ... It seems to me that he was.
I'm not saying he deserved hell.
But, I'm not God, am I?

BCsenior · Feb 13, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
But my same discerning abilities tell me they have not gone to Hell and back, so one of us is wrong.

And which testimony, may I ask, have you watched?

Kenny'sID · Feb 13, 2019

BCsenior said:
And which testimony, may I ask, have you watched?

Several of them.

So here we have 2 people both with the spirit of discernment, disagreeing...now what?

aiki · Feb 13, 2019

Oldmantook said:
Your reply is full of excuses without addressing the text. Quite revealing.

This is just a rather obvious dodge of my points. Sweeping dismissal is not a valid argument.

Oldmantook said:
In the NT, brethren always refers to believers - never the unsaved - so your claim is preposterous.

Again, I've never indicated otherwise. As I said, James' comments were to believers but about non-believers. What "preposterous" claim did I make, then?

Oldmantook said:
If you don't believe James, perhaps you will believe Jesus but somehow I doubt it given your persistence.

Oh, I believe James all right; I just don't believe your interpretation of him.

Oldmantook said:
In the story of the lost sheep in Luke 15 the lost sheep is referred to as a SINNER (v.7). This lost sheep/sinner was originally a part of the 99 other sheep who remained in the flock. This flock is described as those who NEED NO REPENTANCE (v.7). So originally this sheep was part of the other 99 who needed no repentance (believers) but becomes lost and is now a "sinner" in need of repentance.

If you're beaten on the battlefield, flee to the castle, eh?

Luke 15:3-7
3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:
4 "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'
7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

When I read this parable, I don't do so through the SAL (saved-and-lost) lens that you do. Consequently, I have a very different understanding of the parable than you do. A few questions might help clarify why I don't see an SAL doctrine in the parable.

1. What is the main point of comparison in the parable?

The main point of comparison is between the joy of the shepherd having retrieved his sheep and the joy of heaven over the repentant sinner. It this joy that Christ is emphasizing, not a saved-and-lost doctrine.

2. Whose sheep does a shepherd go out to find?

His own. Though the sheep in the parable had wandered, it was still the shepherd's sheep which is why the shepherd declares "I have found MY sheep which was lost!" So, though the sheep was lost, it had not been rejected or disowned by the shepherd. The sheep was still of the shepherd's fold. It was because there was a relationship between the sheep and the shepherd that the shepherd went out to find the sheep.

3. Is a lost sinner one of the Good Shepherd's sheep?

No. How, then, can the lost sheep in the parable who was the shepherd's sheep be parallel to, or figurative of, a lost person? It seems to me quite clear that it can't be.

4. Does the lost sheep repent and come back to the shepherd?

No. The sheep does nothing to be rescued from its wandering. The shepherd tracks it down, scoops it up, and carries the sheep home. In this respect also, then, the sheep is quite unlike a sinner repenting of his sins.

In light of these things, I do not see that Christ meant his parable of the Shepherd and the Sheep to be a warning about believers losing their salvation. Instead, his point in the parable was only to explain the joy in heaven over a sinner coming to salvation.

Christ could have - and did - use a number of mundane instances of joy to emphasize this point. He goes on to speak of a lost coin and the joy of the woman who had lost it when she recovers it, making a parallel between her joy and that of the angels in heaven over a lost sinner who repents. Did Christ intend to make the lost coin analagous to the sinner? If so, we should think, then, that God loses His children, that He misplaces them, as the woman did her coin. We must believe that the "coin" (aka the sinner) was lost because of the carelessness of the "coin owner" (aka God). Obviously, such a conclusion is not intended. Just like in the parable of the Shepherd and the Sheep, the point of the Lost Coin parable was not to suggest a sinner is like a lost coin, but only to illustrate the kind of joy in heaven that occurs when a sinner is saved.

Ing Bee · Feb 13, 2019

BCsenior said:
Yes, brother, but let's not forget that there is
a page full of NT verses, which teach us that ...
a believer's faith must endure until the end of life
for him/her to be finally saved from hell.

My favorite example is ...
MANY BACs will end up taking the mark of the beast
and be cast into the Lake of Fire.
Do we love Jesus enough to be faithful to Him
... until the end, regardless of the consequences?

Could you give me the passage reference in Revelation? (If it's already on that list, don't worry about it, I'll revisit them and give a response.)

It is not clear to me that "BACs" are in view in the list you gave near the beginning. The 1 Corinthians passage just jumped out at me right off the bat so I didn't take a look at too many of the others except the ones I noted in my previous post.

BCsenior · Feb 13, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Several of them.

So here we have 2 people both with the spirit of discernment, disagreeing...now what?

I'm sorry, but you don't know what
Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit is all about.
If you are interested, why not start a thread about it?

BCsenior · Feb 13, 2019

Ing Bee said:
Could you give me the passage reference in Revelation? (If it's already on that list, don't worry about it, I'll revisit them and give a response.)

It is not clear to me that "BACs" are in view in the list you gave near the beginning.

Re: the taking of the disastrous mark of the beast
is very clear in Revelation 13 and Revelation 14.

All of the many NT warnings apply to EVERYONE!
If ANYONE is a habitual (unrepentant) sinner,
he/she is obviously on his/her way to hell.
This is what all of the dozens of NT warnings
are all about.
Why would they be written to non-believers?
For non-believers are already on their way to hell.
Hello!

Der Alte · Feb 13, 2019

BCsenior said:
Begin

<BC>Re: the taking of the disastrous mark of the beast
is very clear in Revelation 13 and Revelation 14.
All of the many NT warnings apply to EVERYONE!
If ANYONE is a habitual (unrepentant) sinner,
he/she is obviously on his/her way to hell.
This is what all of the dozens of NT warnings
are all about.
Why would they be written to non-believers?
For non-believers are already on their way to hell.
Hello!<BC>

end

But non-believers don't know they are on their way to hell.

Matthew 28:19
(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Romans 10:13-15
(13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
(15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Instead of condemning all unbelievers to hell, this is what we should be doing.

Oldmantook · Feb 13, 2019

aiki said:
The main point of comparison is between the joy of the shepherd having retrieved his sheep and the joy of heaven over the repentant sinner. It this joy that Christ is emphasizing, not a saved-and-lost doctrine.

What is the reason for such joy? The verse plainly states "over one sinner who repents" in v.7. You overlook the obvious reason for such joy.

aiki said:
His own. Though the sheep in the parable had wandered, it was still the shepherd's sheep which is why the shepherd declares "I have found MY sheep which was lost!" So, though the sheep was lost, it had not been rejected or disowned by the shepherd. The sheep was still of the shepherd's fold. It was because there was a relationship between the sheep and the shepherd that the shepherd went out to find the sheep.

You also neglect to note the difference in that the sheep WAS of the fold but wandered/got lost. The other sheep HAD NO NEED OF REPENTANCE. This lost sheep obviously HAD NEED OF REPENTANCE - thus being referred to as a SINNER. Sinners are lost souls who are unrepentant and unsaved. This sheep was originally part of the flock who need no repentance but became a SINNER - in need of repentance. When this sheep/sinner repented, there was joy in heaven.

aiki said:
No. How, then, can the lost sheep in the parable who was the shepherd's sheep be parallel to, or figurative of, a lost person? It seems to me quite clear that it can't be.

Because contrary to your belief the parable instructs that saved persons can become lost sinners. How else can you explain that this lost sheep referred to as a sinner, was originally part of the flock who need no repentance??

aiki said:
No. The sheep does nothing to be rescued from its wandering. The shepherd tracks it down, scoops it up, and carries the sheep home. In this respect also, then, the sheep is quite unlike a sinner repenting of his sins.

The verse plainly states "one sinner who repents." Just who does that refer to in this story? How can an a person who was never saved have belonged to the flock who have no need of repentance? An unsaved person can never be said to have NO NEED OF REPENTANCE. The lost sheep was a saved believer who became a lost sinner and needed to repent.

aiki said:
If so, we should think, then, that God loses His children, that He misplaces them, as the woman did her coin. We must believe that the "coin" (aka the sinner) was lost because of the carelessness of the "coin owner" (aka God). Obviously, such a conclusion is not intended. Just like in the parable of the Shepherd and the Sheep, the point of the Lost Coin parable was not to suggest a sinner is like a lost coin, but only to illustrate the kind of joy in heaven that occurs when a

Yes there is joy in heaven but you conveniently overlook the fact that repentance has to occur first. How can there be joy in heaven without repentance? God does not lose anything. It is we who choose to become lost/estranged in our relationship with God through unbelief and/or habitual sin - which is the evidence of an unrepentant heart.
I'll leave you with this reference which is the last of this triad of parables taught by Jesus for you to wrestle with. In the parable of the prodigal in Lk 15, Jesus repeats himself twice in verses 24 & 32. He states that the prodigal "was dead and is alive again." We both know that when Jesus repeats himself, it is for emphasis and often the main point of his teaching. So my question to you is just how is someone made alive AGAIN? We physically die but once and the prodigal son did not physically die in this parable so physical death is not the subject here, so how was the prodigal made alive again? This can only refer to being spiritually dead and being made spiritually alive again. The only way someone can be made spiritually alive again is for someone to become a genuine believer, regenerated by the Spirit and made ALIVE in Christ. But subsequently through unbelief or habitual sin (as exemplified by the prodigal's lifestyle) he becomes spiritually dead and separated from God. Upon repentance and seeking restoration with the Father (as in the prodigal's case) he returns to the Father seeking forgiveness, who graciously forgives and is thus made spiritually ALIVE AGAIN. If a believer remains in his sins, he remains spiritually dead, but if he repents he is made alive again.

DamianWarS · Feb 13, 2019

BCsenior said:
It's the end result that counts!
Paul is aware that his habitual sinning is NOT GOOD.
Thus, and therefore, IMO, he is repenting daily!
This is the acceptable heart attitude to have!
Gradually (or sooner), Paul will overcome his sins.
This is the acceptable heart attitude to have!
It's the end result that counts!

Are you aware that Paul said the repentance of
the Corinthian church (over something they did)
was necessary for their salvations? (2 Cor. 7:8-10)

The Holman Christian Standard Bible
“Repent (metanoeo) and believe (pisteou) may be understood as opposite sides of the same coin. Repent means to turn from one’s allegiance to sin and unbelief, whereas believe means to place one’s trust in Christ. Thus when one is mentioned the other is implied. …
John never used the words repent, repentance, or faith to describe the way people are saved. Instead, he used believe since this term included all of these ideas.”

Yes, that ridiculous NT word "believe" actually means
a whole lot more than what we think it means!
The whole of the NT reveals that it MUST mean:
enduring belief, faith, trust, obedience until end of life!

OBVIOUS proof of NO eternal security
Try taking the mark of the beast and see where
you will end up ... nowhere but in the Lake of Fire!
(Revelation 13 and Revelation 14).

Yes, watch your family starve to death,
BUT do not take the mark of the beast.

since sin that is habitual is not the condition of an unsaved state nor sin itself as Paul seems to describe. If the OP wanted to capture sinful pleasures of the heart then it should drop the word "habitual" and merely say "all those who desire and seek sin are NOT in a saved state"

BCsenior · Feb 13, 2019

DamianWarS said:
sin that is habitual is not the condition of an unsaved state

Are you sure that you mean the above?
The NT teaches in many verses ...
sin that is habitual is the condition of an unsaved state!

Kenny'sID · Feb 13, 2019

BCsenior said:
I'm sorry, but you don't know what
Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit is all about.
If you are interested, why not start a thread about it?

And I'm sorry you assume you do and I don't. If we're saved we have the Holy spirit, if we aren't, we don't.

Before you continue to insinuate others aren't saved simply because they disagree with you, I think it might be well for you go start a thread, and try to understand some of the basics of the Holy spirit.

BCsenior · Feb 13, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
And I'm sorry you assume you do and I don't. If we're saved we have the Holy spirit, if we aren't, we don't.

Sorry for the confusion ...
I never said that I thought you were unsaved.
If you wish, you could investigate ...
what the baptism with the Holy Spirit refers to
... simply by googling the blue.
Peace, and God bless you!

ALL habitual sinners are NOT in a saved state

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