Is Origin of Language proof for a Creator/God?

HitchSlap

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In the Bible in Genesis 11:1–9 it says they spoke one language, but since men didn't listen to God, he went down to broke and confuse their language and this is why the world's peoples speak different languages today.

The evidence does not support this assertion.

Question 1: If the bible is true,

It's not. Genesis is a mixture of myth and legend, often borrowing from earlier cultural myths and legends. Genesis is historically, scientifically and geographically wrong.

then wouldn't the oldest language be ancient Hebrew?
If the Bible were true.

If the oldest language is not ancient hebrew then wouldn't that be conflict with the bible?
Yes.

Question 2: What is the oldest language officially and unofficially?

I read a great book about the evolution of language about twelve (?) years ago, but I don't remember. (it wasn't Hebrew)

Question 3: If the bible is true, then out of Africa theory would be incorrect because Adam would be somewhere in the middle east, right? Or Can the first human be African and the bible still be true?
Question 4: What is the scientific research done to show the origin of humans like Out of Africa theory to be true?
Yes, the out of Africa theory is true. Turns out early hominids migrated out of Africa at least three times, and maybe four times.

According to David Reich, in his book Who We Are and How We Got Here, "Conventional models have the human lineage evolving in Africa at all times. To explain current skeletal and genetic data, a minimum of four out-of-Africa migrations are required. However, if our ancestors lived outside of Africa from before 1.8 million years ago until up to three hundred thousand years ago, as few as three major migrations would be required."

*(emphasis mine)

Additionally, the 'speech gene,' FOXP2, has undergone three mutations that (mutations that Neanderthals don't have), has allowed modern humans use speech.
 
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Ophiolite

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I don't believe modern research is unbiased toward Christians.
Modern research has no interest in religion. It is concerned with evidence and with what may be reasonably inferred from that evidence.

Your worldview is seemingly based upon a belief in the inerrancy of the Bible, its literal interpretation and, perhaps, personal revelation. That's fine. You are fully entitled to take that approach. However, the research is clear cut, so your best plan is not to deny it - that just makes you look foolish - but simply ignore it.
 
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Jonaitis

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However, the research is clear cut, so your best plan is not to deny it - that just makes you look foolish - but simply ignore it.

Christians are fools in eyes of the world, and what we preach is folly to those perishing.
 
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Ophiolite

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Christians are fools in eyes of the world, and what we preach is folly to those perishing.
Many people are quite indifferent to Christianity. Many others have respect for its adherents, while not ascribing to its claims. Yet others value the ethical principles at the heart of the religion. So its a bit of an exaggeration to claim "Christians are fools in the eyes of the world", but if it makes you feel better to be despised or regarded as a fool, go for it.
 
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Jonaitis

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So its a bit of an exaggeration to claim "Christians are fools in the eyes of the world", but if it makes you feel better to be despised or regarded as a fool, go for it.

Hey man, this is coming from Scripture (1 Corinthians 1:18-31). I am not saying this out of my own mind, if that's what you're thinking.

Anyways, we are off topic.
 
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Ophiolite

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Hey man, this is coming from Scripture (1 Corinthians 1:18-31). I am not saying this out of my own mind, if that's what you're thinking.

Anyways, we are off topic.
Exactly. The evidence makes it clear that "Christians are not fools in the eyes of the world". Scripture disagrees. I follow the evidence. You follow the Scripture. I'm not challenging the Scripture. I'm ignoring it. I recommend you do the same with the evidence.

And so I think this is on topic. One interpretation of Scripture generates the questions in the OP. The evidence makes the questions irrelevant. Those following the evidence can never reach agreement with those following (one interpretation of) Scripture.
 
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ThievingMagpie

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Open question to Christians on the meaning behind the Babel story: in your reading does God punish humanity because they're prideful, disobedient or he fears their potential? In which case what do you take from the story as a teaching tool?
 
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dzheremi

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Wow. There's so much going on in this thread since I left this morning to run some errands. I think I'm going to bow out because I don't want to be seen to be denigrating others' sincerely-held beliefs, but I just wanted to say that from the point of view of someone who both believes in the Bible and has a master's degree in linguistics (not trying to show off or saying I'm an expert, just that I did have to study this stuff to a fairly high level, though my area of specialization is not historical linguistics or Hebrew in particular), I don't see any necessary conflict between believing in the Bible and acknowledging the evidence that we have and the theories that predominate in the field, and the facts that these theories are based on.

The Bible is many things, depending on how you want to look at it: the self-written records of the Hebrews and the early Christian community; the Holy word of God, written by the Holy Spirit or by the direct influence of the Holy Spirit (recognizing that there are wide range of views within Christianity regarding 'inerrancy' and just what that does and does not mean); the instructions that have been passed down to us regarding how we are to live moral and just lives; etc.

One thing it is decidedly not, however, is a textbook in linguistics, archaeology, human migration patterns, or any of the other stuff that has been talked about in this thread. I'm sorry, it's just not that (and, lest anyone think otherwise, in my Church we venerate it heavily every single liturgy, in addition to having more public readings from it than most churches). When it is relied upon in scientific research (which is perhaps less so these days than it might have been in the days of, say, Mendel, who was an Augustinian monk), it is perhaps as a starting point in positing the existence of a particular people in a certain place, with an eye towards its value as a history, which is one of the things that it is/can be.
 
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juvenissun

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Heber is the father of the Hebrew language after Babel, because it was the language of his family after the event. Before the event, it wasn't called Hebrew.

Does the logic make sense now?

Not really.

Hebrew is the language first called so by Heber after the Babel event.
Hebrew is the language used before the event, but is not called Hebrew.

If the language did not change before and after the event, why would it change name?
 
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juvenissun

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Open question to Christians on the meaning behind the Babel story: in your reading does God punish humanity because they're prideful, disobedient or he fears their potential? In which case what do you take from the story as a teaching tool?

Punish -- no.
Prideful -- yes, but not important
disobedient -- no.
fears -- absolutely no.
(more ...)
 
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Jonaitis

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Not really.

Hebrew is the language first called so by Heber after the Babel event.
Hebrew is the language used before the event, but is not called Hebrew.

If the language did not change before and after the event, why would it change name?

What are you talking about?

If we had all one language, why would we have a name for that language? Hebrew is called Hebrew because Heber and his family spoke it after Babel. The change of linguistics for the other families would not have recognized the tongue (a consequence of the event), and would have singled out Heber's family with their language as the "Hebrews."

If that doesn't make sense, I don't know what will...
 
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juvenissun

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What are you talking about?

If we had all one language, why would we have a name for that language? Hebrew is called Hebrew because Heber and his family spoke it after Babel. The change of linguistics for the other families would not have recognized the tongue (a consequence of the event), and would have singled out Heber's family with their language as the "Hebrews."

If that doesn't make sense, I don't know what will...

OK. You suggested that:
There is an original language before the Babel event. After the event, the original language continued and did not change. Heber is the first one named it as Hebrew.

That is clear and understandable.

But, why is it a must be, or a more reasonable case? How is it different from a brand new language called Hebrew after the event, instead of being an inherited language?
 
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Aman777

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Where is Eden?

According to Genesis 2:10-14, it was located where the Euphrates and Tigris meets into one river, along with the mysterious Pishon that flows around the whole land of Havilah (1 Samuel 15:7 indictes this might be somewhere east of Egypt, maybe near the eastern peninsula of Sinai) and the Gihon that flowed around Cush (Nubia in East Africa or Sheba near Media).

If we were to figure out the location, it was likely near Babylon or modern day Iraq, maybe near the Persian Gulf.

Scripture gives us data.

Eden and it's Rivers were "clean dissolved" in the flood. Isa 24:19 2Pe 3:6 The Ark arrived in Lake Van, Turkey, 11,000 years ago. The beginnings of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers are in the valleys of Northern Mesopotamia where Noah planted grapes for wine. Noah walked down from the mile high Lake in the valleys between the two Rivers in the Cradle of Human Civilization on this Earth.
 
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Aman777

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Open question to Christians on the meaning behind the Babel story: in your reading does God punish humanity because they're prideful, disobedient or he fears their potential? In which case what do you take from the story as a teaching tool?

Babel is the story of how God has produced the 7.7 Billion Humans (descendants of Adam) alive today. God scattered Noah's descendants (Humans) over the entire face of the Earth from Babel Gen 11:9 knowing that they would marry and produce children with the prehistoric people (sons of God) who were already here when the Ark arrived. Genesis 6:4 Today's Humans are the result.

I suppose it was necessary in order to fill Heaven with Humans, or people with a mind like God's. Genesis 3:22 Heaven must really be a huge place since we will soon have 10 Billion living Humans on planet Earth. Amen?
 
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Jonaitis

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OK. You suggested that:
There is an original language before the Babel event. After the event, the original language continued and did not change. Heber is the first one named it as Hebrew.

That is clear and understandable.

But, why is it a must be, or a more reasonable case? How is it different from a brand new language called Hebrew after the event, instead of being an inherited language?

I think it is an important event of redemptive history.

In Ephesians 2, we read that there was a "wall of hostility" between Israel and the nations prior to Christ. Obviously, the apostle says that it was their particular covenant with all the commandments and ordinances that separated them from the rest of the world. Everyone else was outside that covenant community; the nations were alienated from their commonwealth, strangers to their covenants of promise, having no hope, without God in the world. Christ was promised and revealed only to Israel under their Law and through their Prophets. Believers in the OT era were to be found among them, because they had those promises concealed. The Church was hidden in the nation of Israel before the New Covenant, there were believing Jews and unbelieving Jews. What Paul says here, and in Ephesians 3:3-6, is that Christ has broken down that wall so that salvation would extend beyond the boundaries of the Jews into all the world. This is why we Gentiles have access into this faith, not just Jews who had that right first. In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile.

Still, what does this have to do with anything? It was commonly understood that this "wall of hostility" did not just begin with Moses and the Mosaic Covenant, not even with Abraham and the Abrahamic Covenant, but it may have begun in progressive stages up to that point beginning with Eve, then Noah, then Babel, then Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob.

We read in Genesis 3:15, after the fall of our first parents, God put an enmity between Eve's seed and Satan's. Christ is in that Seed, if not that Seed itself. Genesis 4:25 suggests that Abel, though the younger, was that continual seed, but since Cain (Satan's seed) killed him, she made Seth to be her offspring instead of Abel (thus his name means "appointed" for this reason as Genesis 4:25 notes). This shows that Seth and his line carried on that promise of Christ, whereas the world remained in darkness. Then we read that Noah was righteous in his generation, a direct descendant of Seth. He was to carry on that promise. After the flood, we see Noah cursing Ham's son, Canaan, for what he did when Noah was drunk. But, he says in Genesis 9:26 that God is with Shem, and prophesied about Jepheth dwelling in the tents of Shem. What does that mean? It has to do with Christ, in Shem's seed, or who is Shem's seed. The world will take refuge in Christ. Now we see an enmity between Shem's line from the rest of the world. Them we read about Babel, and Heber being the father of the Hebrew race. He is a direct descendant of Shem. It is possible that he didn't consent or join hands with the men of Babel. God scattered them across the world with their own diverse language, but continued to reveal his will and salvation in Christ to Heber's line. Heber still spoke the language of Noah. Now, in Peleg the church of God was hidden in is line. Babel further separated the church from the world with dividing the languages, leaving the Hebrews by themselves. Then we read about Abraham and him being called out of paganism to be the father of a multitude of nations through his offspring. Isaac's line was separated from Ishamel's, Jacob's line separated from Esau. Israel became the very center of those promises regarding Christ, there was no hope and salvation outside them. When Christ came, he abolished that enmity and calls the world to turn to him to be saved.

I think this is the reason why Hebrew was important to have existed prior to Heber in this discussion. I briefly touched on this, and I think I did a poor job since I am writing this on my phone instead of my computer.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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In the Bible in Genesis 11:1–9 it says they spoke one language, but since men didn't listen to God, he went down to broke and confuse their language and this is why the world's peoples speak different languages today.

Just one more thing the bible is wrong about.

Question 1: If the bible is true, then wouldn't the oldest language be ancient Hebrew? If the oldest language is not ancient hebrew then wouldn't that be conflict with the bible?

Some christians even think it was english.

Question 2: What is the oldest language officially and unofficially?

No idea.

Question 3: If the bible is true, then out of Africa theory would be incorrect because Adam would be somewhere in the middle east, right? Or Can the first human be African and the bible still be true?

A christian on this forum even thinks Adam was an extra-terrestial and that Noah's ark really is some kind of space ship.

Question 4: What is the scientific research done to show the origin of humans like Out of Africa theory to be true?

Phylogenetics, biogeography, tracking of fossils, tracking of genetic markers, etc.

Take a look at the Genographic project of national geographic.
You can send in your own DNA and participate. It will give you a complete map of your ancestral migration path through the millenia.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Something like your native language suddenly changed when you are, say, age 22. From then on, you use the new language as your native language. However, that does not erase your memory about the world you once lived in when you were younger than 22. You still can tell your children about your childhood, using your new native language.

Interesting, isn't it?

Interesting?
I think you mean "absurd".
 
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Aman777

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A christian on this forum even thinks Adam was an extra-terrestial and that Noah's ark really is some kind of space ship.

False, since all Humans are the descendants of Adam, whose entire Universe was totally destroyed in the flood. 2Pet3:6 Adam's firmament/universe, with the Ark inside was immersed in water showing that it was totally self sufficient and transportable. Genesis 1:6-7 The firmament appeared in Lake Van, Turkey 11k years ago and brought the FIRST Humans to this planet of creatures who descended from the common ancestor of Apes. It came to this Earth at God's command and History recorded the event.
 
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Adam spoke the same language the Lord God/Jesus did since Adam named the creatures Jesus made from the ground at the beginning of the present 6th Day. Genesis 2:19

We still wouldn't know what language that was or if it even changed over time to become other languages as is the case with most languages that evolve.


Of course not. Adam was made with an intelligence which can be compared to God's.

No he wasn't made with an intelligence which can be compared to God's.




Adam was the first man (Hebrew-Adam) formed BEFORE the plants, herbs and trees on the 3rd Day.

The first humans were created on the 6th day not before the 3rd day.

Genesis 2:4-9 It was not until the 5th Day that "every living creature that moveth" was created and brought forth from water. Adam's entire firmament, which God called Heaven, was totally destroyed (Greek-perished) in the flood. Genesis 6:13 Isaiah 24:19 2 Peter 3:6 The Scoffers of the last days will not believe this. Do you?


No. Heaven was not destroyed in the flood.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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In the Bible in Genesis 11:1–9 it says they spoke one language, but since men didn't listen to God, he went down to broke and confuse their language and this is why the world's peoples speak different languages today.
You should start by making clear you mean only human-spoken language. Other animals communicate very effectively and their languages definitely pre-date any human-spoken language.
Question 1: If the bible is true, then wouldn't the oldest language be ancient Hebrew? If the oldest language is not ancient hebrew then wouldn't that be conflict with the bible?
Just because Genesis was written in Hebrew does not mean it was the original language - after all, it was apparently written after the Babel event.
Question 2: What is the oldest language officially and unofficially?
The oldest language still spoken is probably Tamil, but the oldest language with solid hypothetical support is proto-afro-asiatic
Question 3: If the bible is true, then out of Africa theory would be incorrect because Adam would be somewhere in the middle east, right? Or Can the first human be African and the bible still be true?
Question 4: What is the scientific research done to show the origin of humans like Out of Africa theory to be true?
Nothing to do with language so I'll not comment.
 
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