Who is the Woman in Revelation 12.

Douggg

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The first problem before anything else can be addressed is you can’t fully understand a 1st century analogy through a 21st century paradigm.
The church doesn't fit being the woman because there is the remaining bulk of Revelation 12, after the first five verses.

Which those remaining verses are time frames given in the text that coincides with the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 which pertains to Daniel's people Israel and Jerusalem in Daniel 9:24.
 
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TribulationSigns

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I think we're done here, have a nice evening.

I take that you could not answer the questions regarding Revelation 12:5-6 because it clearly refutes your position if the woman must be National Israel or Mary!
 
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lismore

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Hi Lismore

Not everything in Revelation is prophecy some is clearly already past tense when written in 95 AD

Hello There Facts. There is a viewpoint, I believe it is called Preterism. I do not subscribe to it. God Bless :)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Just The Facts said:
Hi Lismore

Not everything in Revelation is prophecy some is clearly already past tense when written in 95 AD
Hello There Facts. There is a viewpoint, I believe it is called Preterism. I do not subscribe to it. God Bless :)
Which part of Preterism do you disagree with?

https://www.preteristarchive.com/sitemap/

https://www.preteristarchive.com/gk-beale-study-archive/

G.K. Beale Study Archive

the Old Testament tabernacle and temples were symbolically designed to point to the end-time reality that God’s presence, formerly limited to the Holy of Holies, would be extended throughout the cosmos. Hence, John’s vision in Revelation 21 is best understood as picturing the new heavens and earth as the eschatological temple.

Josephus’ claim that the springs miraculously flowed more freely at Titus’ parousia would be to suggest that Titus was at least accompanied by divine favour, and this effect is made explicit by the statement that “the Deity has fled from the holy places and taken His stand on the side of those with whom you are now at war”[/quote]
 
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parousia70

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Mary is not the mother of any church. She was a woman who birthed the Messiah...that's it.

Then you must believe she is this woman:
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
 
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parousia70

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The book of Revelation is a book of prophecy. Therefore the event it is describing in ch 12 must be a future event.
ONLY If we ignore Revelation 1:19
REV. 1:19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which are about to take place after this.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Hi Little Lamb

that all prophecy except Jesus Second Advent has happened. That when you die you go right to heaven or Hell the list really goes on and on.
Yeah.
A 2,000 yr and counting long list
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Hello all

So everyone says they trust scripture. Lets let Scripture tell us who this woman is by the symbols we are given to describe her.

Who is the Woman in Rev 12:

Some say it is Israel, some say it is Mary some says it is the Holy Spirit. Who does Scripture say this woman really is. We need to look at what is said about her.

1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

She is clothed in the Sun and stands on the Moon and has a crown of 12 stars.

2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

She is about to give Birth

5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

She bears a Man Child who will rule the world and who is caught up to God’s Throne.

I think everyone agrees that the Man-child is Jesus. So it is easy to see why so many say the woman is Mary. Others say no Israel brought forth Jesus not Mary. Others say it was the Holy Spirit

First, we need to see who scripture says brought forth Jesus so that we trust the Word of God not the doctrines of men.

Matt:1:20: But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

This verse says it is the Holy Spirit that brings forth Jesus. What else does God’s Word tell us.

Lk:1:35: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Once Again it is the Holy Spirit that brings forth Jesus.

So we See that Scripture tells us it is the Holy Spirit that brings forth Jesus not Mary and not the Nation of Judea.

So does this mean the Holy Spirit is a WOMAN??????????? That is a very Gnostic view of the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that is what is being said. We need to remember this is all metaphoric, we need to look at who Scripture says a woman in prophetic scripture is.

12: And he said, Thou shalt no more rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of Zidon: arise, pass over to Chittim; there also shalt thou have no rest. 13: Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, till the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; and he brought it to ruin. 14: Howl, ye ships of Tarshish: for your strength is laid waste 15: And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. 16: Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. 17: And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

Above we see the religion of Tyre called a virgin of the Kingdom.

Jer: 46:11: Go up into Gilead, and take balm, O virgin, the daughter of Egypt: in vain shalt thou use many medicines; for thou shalt not be cured.

Once again the religion of Egypt is referred to as a Virgin a woman.

Isa:47:1: Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate. 2: Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. 3: Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man. 4: As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel. 5: Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms.

Again we see the religion of Babylon referred to as a virgin a woman. We know it is the Spirituality of Babylon it is talking about the city is only the seat of the false religious belief.

12: Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth;

The word sorceries really means prophecy that was the whole purpose of the sorceries to obtain prophecy.

13: Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators,

Jer:18:13: Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.

Jer:31:4: Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

Here we see the faith of Judea called the Virgin of Israel.

So what evil thing did the Virgin of Judah do?????


Jer:7:30: For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.


So here we see that the evil did by the virgin is false worship. She played the harlo

It is clear that in prophetic scripture a Woman is used to describe a religion, in modern terms a Church. It is important to understand that in ancient times religions were all based around a city and a temple. So the Virgin of Babylon is the religion of Babylon the virgin of Israel is the religion of Israel all based in a city where people would come to worship.

So lets look at the symbolism of this woman

1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

So lets go through these symbols one by one what is meant by clothed with the sun.


Ps:84:11: For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

So does this mean the woman is wearing God/sun. Is there another verse to back this, is there other verses that tell us to wear God?

Eph:6:11: Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.


Eph:6:13: Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

It is clear that in Eph: Paul is directly referencing Ps:84. So this woman / church (IE: religious belief) is wearing God as Armour and a shield.

What about the moon this woman is standing on the moon. What does this mean?

Ps: 82:36: His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37: It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven.

Here we see God says the promise will be forever established as the Moon.

Put this all together and what do you get?

You get a Religion/Church clothed in the Armour of God and Standing on the Promise.

The Woman is the True Church / Faith /Religion of God gained by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That is who brought forth the male Child. As she promised through the power of the Holy Spirit to the prophets.

See how easy it is when you let Scripture tell you what it means.

If you continue reading you will see the Dragon raises Rome the Beast of Rev 13 to hunt down and kill the woman.
er


Revelation 12 Commentary
12:1-2 The Bible portrays the great controversy between Christ and Satan in terms of three characters: the Dragon, the Woman, and the Man Child. They are first introduced in Eden where the dragon won an initial engagement with the woman. Bitter conflict ensues between the serpent and the woman, between his seed, and her seed. Ultimate victory comes through a single Seed of the woman, who crushes the serpent’s head, at the same time suffering a deadly bite to the heel. Genesis 3:15. Chapter 12 of Revelation portrays the whole sweet of the drama from its origin in heaven, to Satan’s attack on Jesus, through the persecutions of the Dark Ages, until the final conflict at the time of the end.

Throughout the Bible a pure “woman” is a symbol of God’s true church while a harlot represents a corrupt church. Hosea 1:2; Ezekiel 16; 2 Corinthians 11:2.

She is said to be “clothed with the sun,” the glory of the gospel of Christ, and have “the moon under her feet,” the reflected glory of Christ as foreshadowed in the Old Testament sanctuary services and rituals. John 8:12; Colossians 2:11-17. The “crown of twelve stars” represents the twelve apostles. The woman who gives birth to Messiah represents the true church through its entire history—from Adam and the Jewish nation to the Christian Church.
 
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Copperhead

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The woman is Israel (Jerusalem) who's seed bore our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This is in contrast to the woman who rides the beast who is also Israel however apostate.

Yes, but I think it goes much deeper regarding the woman of Revelation 12. It is indeed Israel, not the Church. The Church, Body of Messiah, does not give birth to the Messiah. Israel is the wife of Yahweh, as He clearly states throughout the Tanakh. Yeshua is the Son and is a Jew born out of Israel.

Notice that the child she bears is immediately caught up to God and His Throne. Well, I challenge anyone to show a passage where Yeshua was caught up to God immediately after His birth. He was caught away with His parents to Egypt to escape Herod but not to the Throne of God. He ascended much later.

And who is it that rules with a rod of iron? I think most of us can agree that it is Yeshua. But Revelation 2:26-27 states clearly that those who overcome.... the redeemed.... will rule with a rod of iron just as Yeshua will.

And that makes sense. We as the redeemed are, after all, the Body of Messiah as expounded throughout the Epistles.

So therein lies a possible allusion. The Ekklesia (Church) was conceived in Jerusalem (Israel) on Shavuot by the Holy Spirit after Yeshua returned to the Father. Individuals may be born again, but the Ekklesia / Church / Body of Messiah has not been born yet. It has been growing, gestating if you will, and developing and will be delivered yet future to be joined with Yeshua.

It is possible that this is what is pictured in Revelation 12. Sure, the woman (Israel) gave birth to Yeshua, but will also give birth to the Body of Yeshua, the redeemed. It is after this future birth that Satan and his cohorts are cast to the earth per the same passage. In the same passage, it says that up to that point, he has been the accuser of the brethren. If the passage is only about Yeshua time on earth, then how could the brethren have been accused by Satan if he was already cast down after Yeshua's birth?

Many OT passages seem to allude to this concept. Isaiah, Jeremiah, and others alluding to a birth pains and a delivery that starts the Time of Jacob's Trouble / Tribulation period. And there are many Theologians, Scholars, and Expositors for the at least the last 500 years that have alluded to this same idea of the woman in Revelation 12.

It is debatable, but there is a lot of possible support in scripture. One of those little mysteries that the Lord has given us.
 
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Yes, but I think it goes much deeper regarding the woman of Revelation 12. It is indeed Israel, not the Church. The Church, Body of Messiah, does not give birth to the Messiah. Israel is the wife of Yahweh, as He clearly states throughout the Tanakh. Yeshua is the Son and is a Jew born out of Israel.

Notice that the child she bears is immediately caught up to God and His Throne. Well, I challenge anyone to show a passage where Yeshua was caught up to God immediately after His birth. He was caught away with His parents to Egypt to escape Herod but not to the Throne of God. He ascended much later.

And who is it that rules with a rod of iron? I think most of us can agree that it is Yeshua. But Revelation 2:26-27 states clearly that those who overcome.... the redeemed.... will rule with a rod of iron just as Yeshua will.

And that makes sense. We as the redeemed are, after all, the Body of Messiah as expounded throughout the Epistles.

So therein lies a possible allusion. The Ekklesia (Church) was conceived in Jerusalem (Israel) on Shavuot by the Holy Spirit after Yeshua returned to the Father. Individuals may be born again, but the Ekklesia / Church / Body of Messiah has not been born yet. It has been growing, gestating if you will, and developing and will be delivered yet future to be joined with Yeshua.

It is possible that this is what is pictured in Revelation 12. Sure, the woman (Israel) gave birth to Yeshua, but will also give birth to the Body of Yeshua, the redeemed. It is after this future birth that Satan and his cohorts are cast to the earth per the same passage. In the same passage, it says that up to that point, he has been the accuser of the brethren. If the passage is only about Yeshua time on earth, then how could the brethren have been accused by Satan if he was already cast down after Yeshua's birth?

Many OT passages seem to allude to this concept. Isaiah, Jeremiah, and others alluding to a birth pains and a delivery that starts the Time of Jacob's Trouble / Tribulation period. And there are many Theologians, Scholars, and Expositors for the at least the last 500 years that have alluded to this same idea of the woman in Revelation 12.

It is debatable, but there is a lot of possible support in scripture. One of those little mysteries that the Lord has given us.
Do you see a correlation between the OT remnant of Israel and the NT remnant?
 
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Jenniferdiana

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i believe sometimes God likes to give his people names..like your parents give you a nickname...just because God calls someone Israel doesnt mean it's literally Israel..he probably just give people names based on that certain thing..if he calls something Jacob in the Bible doesn't mean it's literally Jacob it just means that person probably has the chracteristics of Jacob . And the woman is the bride of Christ who is actually a literal woman chosen by God..
 
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Copperhead

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It is difficult to imagine that the woman of Revelation 12 is the church. That would mean the church is giving birth to it's head, the Messiah. Or one of a dozen wild ideas of who is who. Here is some perspective. I would like to take credit for all of this, but I thing Gary at unsealed.org did a pretty good job and I will not take credit for someone else's work. Plagiarism is not my bag.

1. A singular male child. Jesus was clearly a singular male child, but what people frequently fail to notice is that the Church is at least three times figuratively called a singular man, as well (Ephesians 2:15, 4:13, Galatians 3:29). Furthermore, the Church is compared to Christ's mystical, corporate "body" more often than it is compared to other metaphors like a "bride" or "temple". See here.

2. The child is called teknon.
The raptured child in Revelation 12:5 is called both teknon (informal child) and huios (son of honor), which is strange considering that Jesus is exclusively called huios in the Scriptures, except on a single occasion by his mother (Luke 2:48). In addition, the Apostle John uses teknon to refer to the Church as the children of God in his first epistle (1 John 3:1-2, 10, 5:2), and uses huios exclusively to refer to Christ in his gospel and first epistle (John 1:49, 59, 3:13, 16, 5:19, 14:13, 1 John 3:8, 4:15, 5:5, 5:20). To assume John is suddenly changing course in Revelation 12 would be contrary to all evidence.

3. The child is born before the woman goes into labor.
Revelation 12:5 is connected directly to Isaiah 66:7, which says this corporate baby is born before Israel goes into labor. In other words, a pre-tribulational delivery. You can read more about this here. The Church has debated whether or not Mary had labor pains since earliest times, but Scripture seems to be silent on the subject. Luke 2:6 does indicate that the time for the baby to be born had come. This might indicate contractions and birth pains. In any case, with nothing definitely saying she did not have labor pains, the preponderance of evidence would seem to indicate Mary was not free from the same curse that has been on all women since Genesis 3:16.

4. The prophecy in Revelation 12 is yet future.
Revelation 1:1 clearly lays out the purpose of the book, which is to tell the saints what will happen in the future. Revelation 4:1 drives this point home even further, indicating that everything from Revelation 4:1-on is yet to occur.

5. The child will rule with a rod of iron.
Revelation 12:5 says that the male child "will rule all the nations with a rod of iron." It is obvious enough that Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Psalm 2:7-9, Revelation 19:15), but Revelation 2:26-27 informs us that the Church is afforded this honor, as well.

6. The child is conceived in and born out of Israel.
Jesus was conceived in Nazareth and born in Bethlehem. Both are towns in Israel. The Church was conceived (or some might say "born") in Jerusalem on Pentecost around AD 33. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The corporate birth of the Church occurs from "heavenly Jerusalem" (Galatians 4:26-27).

7. The child is in imminent danger from satan's world system.
This criterion presents a significant challenge to those who believe Revelation 12 is speaking about Christ. Christ was in no danger from satan before His ascension and neither was He in danger before His death (Matthew 26:53, John 2:19, 5:26, 10:18, Philippians 2:8).

8. The child is raptured to God's throne.
The male child is raptured in Revelation 12:5. The Greek word used is harpazo, which means "caught up" or "snatched up" and it is the word used for the rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Every single mention of Jesus' ascension is described using the words epairo or anabaino, both of which indicate a gradual rising (like climbing a mountain), not a quick and violent snatching away (harpazo). Revelation 12:5 is clearly connected to the rapture event.
 
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8. The child is raptured to God's throne. The male child is raptured in Revelation 12:5. The Greek word used is harpazo, which means "caught up" or "snatched up" and it is the word used for the rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Every single mention of Jesus' ascension is described using the words epairo or anabaino, both of which indicate a gradual rising (like climbing a mountain), not a quick and violent snatching away (harpazo). Revelation 12:5 is clearly connected to the rapture event.

No, it's long before the rapture of the church. It is Christ's ascension being addressed because it happens in the same timeframe as his birth and life and this must be related to after his death because that's when Christ would go to the throne. Harpazo doesn't mean a "violent snatching". It means to seize or grab, that can be slow and gradual or fast and that can be said of anabaino as well.

2Co_12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co_12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev_12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

None of these example include any violence in the rapturing.
 
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Copperhead

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No, it's long before the rapture of the church. It is Christ's ascension being addressed because it happens in the same timeframe as his birth and life and this must be related to after his death because that's when Christ would go to the throne. Harpazo doesn't mean a "violent snatching". It means to seize or grab, that can be slow and gradual or fast and that can be said of anabaino as well.

Your point might be viable if it were not for the other points being made.
 
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Nope it doesn't change anything in your post. But it negates it.


It never even addressed anything so it doesn't negate anything. It's a spurious response.
 
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