No assurance of Salvation is not equal to No Salvation

David Cabrera said:

I need to finish some projects so I will be back tomorrow. I also feel the thread turned from a discussion about not believing people who don't have assurance of salvation aren't saved to just talking about assurance of salvation.

Here is a gif of a smiling Wonder Woman to calm us all. View attachment 251224

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I see your smiling Wonder Woman, and counter with a



cute baby.

David Cabrera said:

I feel a lot of times when I tell someone that I don't have assurance of Salvation, they believe "I don't have a relationship with Jesus", but it is the opposite, I know that I have to work out my salvation every day.

What is your opinion?

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I actually have absolute assurance of salvation. If ever I have any doubt I can go to scripture and be assured I belong to Him.

I couldn't handle it if I didn't have assurance and feel so very sad for people who are unsure. I wouldn't and couldn't be Christian if I couldn't be sure from day to day whether or not I would make it into heaven.

Salvation is the biggest part of Christianity and if you can't trust in it then Christianity itself falls apart.

Islam taught that if your good deeds outweighed your bad deeds you would be forgiven for your sins and make it into heaven. But in such a situation you clearly see each and every fault and your never sure. (or you are sure your just sure its hell you will see.. lol)

At the same time you wonder about Christians, and ask yourself what Jesus is for? What are Christians getting a "Savior" for? What are they saved from?

And the answer Islam gives is a joke, so you ask Christians...

And I see the truth. Somewhere in my heart I knew this truth.. We can't make it into heaven based on our deeds. We can never be good enough, no matter how hard we try.

And we see a Savior who has the ability to save us.

Yeah. Without that I wouldn't be Christian today, and I would cry for anyone who couldn't have surety in their salvation. I know Who I belong to, and where I am going when I die.

And its a beautiful thing. A beautiful God. Full of peace.

David Cabrera said:

I feel a lot of times when I tell someone that I don't have assurance of Salvation, they believe "I don't have a relationship with Jesus", but it is the opposite, I know that I have to work out my salvation every day.

What is your opinion?

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Hi David-
Can you share what you mean by "I have to work out my salvation every day." This is a question I'd love to respond to but I want to make sure I understand the question correctly.

Do you mean:

1. If you don't continue to work, you don't have salvation or
2. You have salvation, but it is unfolding in your life through your actions, words, and attitudes or
3. Something else. If so, how would you describe it?

Also, when you say you don't have assurance of Salvation do you mean:

1. You have it, but you might lose it
2. You don't have it yet, but you might achieve it
3. You don't know if you have it or not, but are living so as to be worthy of it

Thanks!

Jonaitis said:

I am not inferring anything, James clearly says this in verse 2:18. He asks the man with a "dead faith" to show it without works.

Hebrews 11 is actually a great go to for cross-reference that supports what I have said.

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That is my favorite passage for this kind of discussion. To be frank, I am bewildered by this controversy. In my understanding, Hebrews 11:6 is the key: entering into a life-giving relationship with God through Christ is identical to entering into a relationship with anyone else:
Step 1- Self-Disclosure
Step 2 - Trusting Participation.
Step 3- Rinse and repeat

The writer of Hebrews says that personal trust (faith) is indispensable if you want to please God because:
1. You have to trust/believe he's real and
2. You have to trust/believe attempting to know him will be rewarded with relationship.

In each case given in Hebrews 11, faith is trusting participation in God's self-sharing (i.e. divine revelation) with the expectation of a promised future (as yet unseen) that would materialize. This is exactly what we do all the time with humans, the only difference being that Yahweh is a unique community of divine persons who can make what is "seen from what was invisible".

Maybe we should just call it "trustaction" to get rid of the false dichotomy?

David Cabrera said:

I feel a lot of times when I tell someone that I don't have assurance of Salvation, they believe "I don't have a relationship with Jesus", but it is the opposite, I know that I have to work out my salvation every day.

What is your opinion?

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Why not take the last step and trust Jesus to do what He said He will do, save you.

What is the path to salvation?

1) Realize that you’re are a sinner. (Romans 3:23, 5:12; 1 John 1:10)

2) Change your mind about Jesus (repent).

• Jesus said: “…unless you repent (have a change of mind that results in a change of action), you will all perish and be lost eternally. (Luke 13:5)
• …now God charges all people everywhere to repent. (Acts 17:30)

3) Believe the Gospel, that Jesus Christ died for you, was buried and rose from the dead.

• We are made right in God’s sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in the same way, no matter who we are or what we have done. For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God’s anger against us. We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed His blood, sacrificing His Life for us. (Romans 3:22, 25)
• For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)

4) Go to God in prayer, confessing Jesus as Lord and your need for forgiveness of your sins. Give your life to Jesus, making Him the Lord of your life.

• For it is believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. (Romans 10:10)
• For anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.(Romans 10:13)

Then you've got to trust Jesus to do His part, to save you, just like He said He will. <~~~Without this part, I spent years doubting my salvation, praying (over & over/again & again) for God to save me, never knowing, for sure, if I was. Ever since I started trusting Jesus to do what He said He will do, I know I'm saved and have never had any doubts about it since then.

David Cabrera said:

Except that you need to read Genesis. His faith is based on him doing what God told him to do.

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No. He was counted as righteous for his faith (belief).

Issac and the ram just showed in action the truth of Abraham's faith, trust, and belief in God. When Abraham set out, he told Issac that God would provide the sacrifice.

And he trusted God, he had absolute faith in a good God to the last. And that faith and trust bore itself out - Abraham had not misplaced his trust, God indeed provided a sacrifice.

It was Abraham's faith, not his action which God praised. All the action did was to show his heart.

Abraham's action couldn't exist outside of faith.

David Cabrera said:

I feel a lot of times when I tell someone that I don't have assurance of Salvation, they believe "I don't have a relationship with Jesus", but it is the opposite, I know that I have to work out my salvation every day.

What is your opinion?

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Do you have faith of salvation?

Nicolaus Mourer said:

Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't see outlined in scripture a hard and fast rule that says every believer will mature in the faith. I see what believers should and are supposed to do, but I don't see what will happen for every believer. The Corinthians were babes in Christ in the first epistle that Paul wrote to them, carnal and not spiritual. They were having a hard time bearing fruits, yet they were called saints.

I think one can argue that the Holy Spirit influences all believers toward obedience to God and righteous living in accordance to what scripture calls us to do, but the argument is just as valid on the other end that some believers can and will quench the Holy Spirit's work within their lives. They may be saved, but they are the thorny soil that is choked by the cares of the world, and doesn't bring forth fruit to perfection.

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Galatians 5:22-24
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires

Of course, this is realized from one degree to another among believer's, and sometimes it's hardly discernible. But all those that belong to Christ are new creatures, God's handiwork prepared for good works. Sometimes the evidence of salvation is known only to the believer by an internal mourning over his sin. The work of the Spirit is so varied in each heart, but it will be there to some degree for those that belong to Christ.
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

David Cabrera said:

I feel a lot of times when I tell someone that I don't have assurance of Salvation, they believe "I don't have a relationship with Jesus", but it is the opposite, I know that I have to work out my salvation every day.

What is your opinion?

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We need to REST in the Lord. Questioning salvation is the work of Satan. Walk in the Spirit always. Rest assured you are in the Body of Christ.

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Oldmantook said:

I suggest you read 1st John which is an excellent reference on the believer's assurance. I already cited several verses from that book on how we can have assurance based upon the quality of our lives - see my post #11.

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Yeh, "quality." I understood that the first time around. What I asked then was this--if I commit myself to performing good deeds, which deeds count the most, the least, and in between? Will helping the proverbial old lady across the street count for more towards my salvation than, say, giving a hundred dollars to local homeless shelter? What else?

David Cabrera said:

I feel a lot of times when I tell someone that I don't have assurance of Salvation, they believe "I don't have a relationship with Jesus", but it is the opposite, I know that I have to work out my salvation every day.

What is your opinion?

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Your understanding appears correct according based on the fullness of scripture. One can find single passages here and there about instant and eternal salvation through belief alone, however you have to proof text them, and disregard the fullness of the gospel in order to latch onto such passages. God is all in all. The grace of salvation is given as he pleases, hence we have the god thief and John 316. But.... we also have the sheep and the goats. We have working out our salvation in fear and trembling. We have faith withou works is dead. And we have go away, I never knew you. So.....It appears God will bestow a perfect gift of grace to some, by reading of their hearts for perfect contrition, and perhaps the person didn’t have a chance to do good works in support and proof of their faith, like the good thief. But most of us get an opportunity To live out our gift of the grace of faith by showing the effect of God’s light in us by picking up our own crosses daily, and following Christ. And by prayer, fasting, alms giving, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and imprisoned and such. And this should come about naturally for the truly saved as a result of grace. In my faith tradition we refer to “blessed hope” in our salvation because of Christ.

Albion said:

Yeh, "quality." I understood that the first time around. What I asked then was this--if I commit myself to performing good deeds, which deeds count the most, the least, and in between? Will helping the proverbial old lady across the street count for more towards my salvation than, say, giving a hundred dollars to local homeless shelter? What else?

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It’s not a quantitative credit and debit system where this equals such and such and that equals less or more, If we have truly accepted Christ and His grace, then we enter into His very body, We are strengthened by His body and blood which Instill spiritual life within us, God IS love (caritas/agape), and all who live in love live in God. It seems that the greatest gift is charity/love. Jesus says they will know you by your love for one another. So we live in love. We do whatever we do with God’s love, and therefore to the glory of God. So if you’re helping a lady across the street, or putting an extra 5 in the collection for the poor, or even just serving customers at work it should all be out of love and to the glory of God which is a state of the heart given as grace to the members of the body of Christ. No points for certain actions, but rather a change in our state of being which assists us in conforming with God’s will for us which is ultimately a perfection of love so that we may enter eternal life. (salvation). So, it is not THAT you do good works, it is rather that whatever works you do are with love and to the Glory of God as a member of the mystical body of Christ.

stevenfrancis said:

It’s not a quantitative credit and debit system where this equals such and such and that equals less or more, If we have truly accepted Christ and His grace, then we enter into His very body, We are strengthened by His body and blood which Instill spiritual life within us, God IS love (caritas/agape), and all who live in love live in God.

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That would be closer to the POV of the reformed churches, those that teach salvation by Faith. But in the unreformed church bodies, it is salvation by faith (maybe), but also by works. So which works? Which ones count for how much, etc. That is reasonable to ask.

David Cabrera said:

I feel a lot of times when I tell someone that I don't have assurance of Salvation, they believe "I don't have a relationship with Jesus", but it is the opposite, I know that I have to work out my salvation every day. What is your opinion?

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I suppose it depends on what you mean by working out your salvation.

Salvation is a multifaceted theological concept.

If you mean by "salvation" that you are being saved or staying saved in the most basic sense by working it out - then IMO there is a strong possibility that you misunderstand the work of Christ on your behalf and perhaps have not rested in His sufficiency.

Only you know for sure how you feel about that. Unless, of course you'd like to elaborate for us on "working it out".

Albion said:

Yeh, "quality." I understood that the first time around. What I asked then was this--if I commit myself to performing good deeds, which deeds count the most, the least, and in between? Will helping the proverbial old lady across the street count for more towards my salvation than, say, giving a hundred dollars to local homeless shelter? What else?

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It appears that you focus on the minutia without see the whole. The two examples you cited exemplify one's character don't they? It is not a matter of one or the other but both as you are have committed the illogical fallacy of proposing a false dilemma. Did you manage to read 1st John? Did you manage to read my short version in post #11? It's not hard to understand.

Oldmantook said:

It appears that you focus on the minutia without see the whole. The two examples you cited exemplify one's character don't they?

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Look, certain churches do teach that salvation is by works. Yes, it sometimes comes with the proviso that this means works PLUS faith, but the performance of good deeds is asserted as being necessary for salvation. In some cases, those churches identify certain good works that are believed to be meritorious.

All the sweeping generalizations about ones character and growing in the image of God, etc. etc. simply serve to sidestep this reality.

David Cabrera said:

I feel a lot of times when I tell someone that I don't have assurance of Salvation, they believe "I don't have a relationship with Jesus", but it is the opposite, I know that I have to work out my salvation every day.

What is your opinion?

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If I look at Paul who said ," Brethren , I do not count myself to have apprehended but this I do , etc. from Philippians 3:13 , then who am I to say I have apprehended . Like you , through Christ , I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling ...and I find it work with the reward of being fruitful unto God . Elsewhere we are told to endeavor for the faith once delivered to the saints ....this was told to believers . Personally , I am afraid that " assurance of salvation " is possibly being peddled . ( I am not opposed to assurance but not at the cost of truth . ) Grace and peace in the name of Jesus .

Albion said:

Look, certain churches do teach that salvation is by works. Yes, it sometimes comes with the proviso that this means works PLUS faith, but the performance of good deeds is asserted as being necessary for salvation. In some cases, those churches identify certain good works that are believed to be meritorious.

All the sweeping generalizations about ones character and growing in the image of God, etc. etc. simply serve to sidestep this reality.

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Not at all. How do you reconcile your belief with the scriptures I cited in 1st John? Do they not describe a lifestyle that a believer should live by? They do not describe quantity do they? Instead they describe attitudes and behaviors that a believer should exemplify. You have not explained away those scriptures and reconciled them with your own view. Rather than faith + works = salvation, I think a more accurate expression is faith = works = salvation.

Oldmantook said:

It appears that you focus on the minutia without see the whole.

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I get the whole. We all get the whole. But the question of works in relation to faith is not "minutia."

But the questions weren't meant to grill any individual. I am happy enough to leave it open for any others who may choose to offer an answer.