ALL habitual sinners are NOT in a saved state

BCsenior said:

C'mon ...
Have you given her testimony a chance?
Have you discerned whether she's false or not?

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And how do you discern such a thing? I can't even prove if she has ever been to McDonald's and back, much less, hell.

BCsenior said:

I would like to repeat once again ...
God had the Bible written for His people,
to help them be overcomers as they walk
down that narrow path.
The Bible was not written for those who
are not His elect.

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Ah..... thats not exactly correct, there are many passages in the bible for the unbeliever, its for both. Pauls letters were to churches and he called them saints. I am sure there were many people in those churches that weren't saved (just like today) and it was for them all.

JAYPT said:

Ah..... thats not exactly correct, there are many passages in the bible for the unbeliever, its for both. Pauls letters were to churches and he called them saints. I am sure there were many people in those churches that weren't saved (just like today) and it was for them all.

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Especially Corinth, wow! It was like spring break, mardi gras and vegas on steriods, wow!

BCsenior said:

All of the verses in the OP are warnings to believers,
and NOT to unbelievers!

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Since we will all be judged and punished accordingly, I'd dare say, it'd be a good idea for all to be aware of sin, and to keep it to a minimum.

BCsenior said:

My favorite example is ...
MANY BACs will end up taking the mark of the beast
and be cast into the Lake of Fire.
Do we love Jesus enough to be faithful to Him
... until the end, regardless of the consequences?

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Then this makes it about us and not about Jesus. Last I checked, its Jesus plus nothing. Its not works based salvation. See God has put new desires in your heart, it rigged, its not a work thing. It doesnt matter if we stumble, even when we are faithless, He is faithful, for He cannot deny who He is.
What is the mark of the beast? It is those who have clearly chosen the anti-Christ, not Jesus.

Kenny'sID said:

Since we will all be judged and punished accordingly, I'd dare say, it'd be a good idea for all to be aware of sin, and to keep it to a minimum.

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How about Christ focused and not worry about sin management, I thought we were called to trust in Him?

JAYPT said:

How about Christ focused and not worry about sin management, I thought we were called to trust in Him?

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We're called to "believe" in Christ and that means a lot more than some choose to believe.

We are told what will happen if we live in sin, it's right there in the OP. Surely you know believing in
Christ, means to do as he says to do?

"Faith and works" it's biblical.

Kenny'sID said:

"Faith and works" it's biblical.

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Work "s" is not biblical. It is a work, your life. Read more of James..... it was one act, responding to the gospel, Abraham put Isaac on the altar and Rehab opened the door to the spies. They did it once and not again and again.

Kenny'sID said:

We are told what will happen if we live in sin, it's right there in the OP. Surely you know believing in
Christ, means to do as he says to do?

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Did you know that sin is a noun? Its a thing.... it has attached itself to you, you cant get away from it in this life. Jesus said to believe in Him, nothing else. For by believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth, you will be saved. Nothing else. God is not served (Acts 10:25).

JAYPT said:

God is not served (Acts 10:25).

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sorry, Acts 17:25

JAYPT said:

Work "s" is not biblical. It is a work, your life. Read more of James..... it was one act, responding to the gospel, Abraham put Isaac on the altar and Rehab opened the door to the spies. They did it once and not again and again.



Did you know that sin is a noun? Its a thing.... it has attached itself to you, you cant get away from it in this life. Jesus said to believe in Him, nothing else. For by believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth, you will be saved. Nothing else. God is not served (Acts 10:25).

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Then you are saying we don't have to do good in order to make it to heaven? We only need to have faith?

aiki said:

This passage doesn't make your case for you. You're doing with this verse exactly what BCsenior has done with the verses he offered in his OP. You are assuming that the wandering sinner is (was?) a Christian because of the phrase "anyone among you." We know, though, that many non-believers had attached themselves to the Early Church (Jesus called them "tares"), sometimes in the form of Judaizers, nascent Gnostics, and false teachers. It is by no means certain, then, that "anyone among you" refers to a believer. Especially in light of James' description of the "someone brought back" as a "sinner," it seems to me very reasonable to understand that he did not mean a person who had been genuinely born-again. What's more, James doesn't say that the wandering sinner wanders from his salvation, from his redemption and/or conversion, but only from the truth. The lost in my church hear the truth every Sunday. Many of them know the Gospel thoroughly. It doesn't mean they are saved, however. I don't see, then, that your proof-text actually supports a saved-and-lost perspective at all.

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Really?? Read the verse for what it states instead of ignoring its words. V.19 states, brethren, brothers, brothers and sisters. I suppose you believe this applies to the unsaved? You plainly ignore whom James is addressing his instruction to. Moreover, you fail to explain exactly how it is possible for a nonbeliever which you presume this passage addresses, to wander from the truth. An unbeliever is never said to be in the truth to begin with so how can he wander from it? Only genuine believers who are in the truth can wander away from it. And one can only be brought back to the truth only if he was previously in the truth.
In v.20 how is it possible for a sinner (whom you presume means unsaved) to be brought back from his wandering? Brought back means this sinner was originally not wandering. The unsaved are always wandering as they are lost in their sins. Again only a genuine believer can be said to be wandering from the truth and be brought back as the unbeliever has always remained in a lost state. Finally, wandering from the truth means sinning as v.20 refers to a multitude of sins. Save his soul from death means lost - no longer having eternal life. This passage defines itself and you have to overlook a host of words in order to cling to your view. Thus I find your rationale to be quite weak having no textual support.

BCsenior said:

By “habitual sinner” I mean a person who repeatedly
sinswithout repentance. This means everyone
(BACs included) … because everyone can choose to sin. Repentance means to hate your sin, run from it, and don’t do it anymore. If one does slip up and sins again, he/she can repent again as in 1 John 1:9. This is repeated until he/she has overcome the sin,
i.e. gained victory over it.

All habitual sinners will not inherit
the Kingdom of God
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves,
nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the Kingdom of God.”
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10, NKJV)
Please note: the BAC has become unrighteous,
if he/she chooses to live in a lifestyle of habitual sinning.

All habitual sinners will not inherit
the Kingdom of God
“When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before,
that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21, NLT)
“those who practice such things will not inherit
the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:21, NKJV)

All habitual sinners will not inherit the Kingdom
of Christ but instead they will experience
the anger/wrath of God
“Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes — these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.” (Ephesians 5:3-6, NLT)
“Let no one deceive you with empty words,
for because of these things the wrath of God
comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
(Ephesians 5:6, NKJV)

All habitual sinners will experience
the anger/wrath of God
“So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don’t be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Because of these sins, the anger of God is coming.” (Colossians 3:5-6, NLT)
“Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience”
(Colossians 3:6, NKJV)

All habitual sinners will go into the lake of fire
“He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. BUT the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:7-8, NKJV)
May I warn you with all sincerity that “the cowardly” includes those BACs in the world (even now) who fall away from the faith during persecution of Christians.
And “the cowardly” will include those BACs who submit to taking the mark of the beast, which is submitting to the ownership of the antichrist, i.e. Satan.

All habitual sinners will not have the right to the tree of life, and will not be allowed into the city of the New Jerusalem
“Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life,
and may enter through the gates into the city.
But outside are the dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters,
and whoever loves and practices a lie.”
(Revelation 22:14-15, NKJV)

BACs = born-again Christians

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BCsenior said:

By “habitual sinner” I mean a person who repeatedly
sinswithout repentance. This means everyone
(BACs included) … because everyone can choose to sin. Repentance means to hate your sin, run from it, and don’t do it anymore. If one does slip up and sins again, he/she can repent again as in 1 John 1:9. This is repeated until he/she has overcome the sin,
i.e. gained victory over it.

All habitual sinners will not inherit
the Kingdom of God
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves,
nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the Kingdom of God.”
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10, NKJV)
Please note: the BAC has become unrighteous,
if he/she chooses to live in a lifestyle of habitual sinning.

All habitual sinners will not inherit
the Kingdom of God
“When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before,
that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21, NLT)
“those who practice such things will not inherit
the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:21, NKJV)

All habitual sinners will not inherit the Kingdom
of Christ but instead they will experience
the anger/wrath of God
“Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes — these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.” (Ephesians 5:3-6, NLT)
“Let no one deceive you with empty words,
for because of these things the wrath of God
comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
(Ephesians 5:6, NKJV)

All habitual sinners will experience
the anger/wrath of God
“So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don’t be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Because of these sins, the anger of God is coming.” (Colossians 3:5-6, NLT)
“Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience”
(Colossians 3:6, NKJV)

All habitual sinners will go into the lake of fire
“He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. BUT the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:7-8, NKJV)
May I warn you with all sincerity that “the cowardly” includes those BACs in the world (even now) who fall away from the faith during persecution of Christians.
And “the cowardly” will include those BACs who submit to taking the mark of the beast, which is submitting to the ownership of the antichrist, i.e. Satan.

All habitual sinners will not have the right to the tree of life, and will not be allowed into the city of the New Jerusalem
“Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life,
and may enter through the gates into the city.
But outside are the dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters,
and whoever loves and practices a lie.”
(Revelation 22:14-15, NKJV)

BACs = born-again Christians

Click to expand...

The Word "repent", that GOD uses throughout His Word, in the original Hebrew, (the way God means it!), IS defined "to lament and grieve" one's sins . NOT to --never-- sin again, and if it did? The Apostle Paul would not be in Heaven with Christ Jesus today. Read Romans 7:14 to understand Paul's struggle/fight against his "sin nature". It would be wise to also read Romans 8:37 to understand that once we BELIEVE in Christ's FINISHED Work at the Cross, nothing in all the universe can remove us from God's eternal family. This understanding is the ONLY way to EVER enjoy the fruits of the Spirit. The misrepresentation of what God actually says has certainly scared off many potential new believers in our Lord Jesus and that is tragic!... Read what God says about this matter, as well as all matters, not what man says God says... God bless you all...

BCsenior said:

Here's a simple example:
What do you think about several people
who have visited hell and came back ...
saying that some are in hell for not tithing?
(Can't remember if it's never tithing, or tithing little.)
They say God takes tithing very seriously, and
does not take kindly to people robbing Him, etc.

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Not tithing will not send one to Hell. One's salvation would therefore be dependant on works and not grace.

Oldmantook said:

Really?? Read the verse for what it states instead of ignoring its words.

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Yes, really. And it is because I have paid careful attention to the wording of the verses that I come to the conclusions I have.

Oldmantook said:

V.19 states, brethren, brothers, brothers and sisters. I suppose you believe this applies to the unsaved?

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??? I didn't say the verses weren't addressed to believers.

Oldmantook said:

You plainly ignore whom James is addressing his instruction to.

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??? Plainly? How so? I didn't say James wasn't addressing Christians, only that his comments in the verses in question pertained, in part, to the wayward lost in their midst.

Oldmantook said:

Moreover, you fail to explain exactly how it is possible for a nonbeliever which you presume this passage addresses, to wander from the truth.

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I never said the passage speaks to non-believers only that it speaks about them.

Oldmantook said:

Moreover, you fail to explain exactly how it is possible for a nonbeliever which you presume this passage addresses, to wander from the truth.

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I have a friend who smokes. He knows the truth that smoking produces cancer in most smokers. Yet, he continues to smoke. Insofar as he does, he could be said to be wandering from the truth. So, too, the non-believer who hears the truth of the Gospel but does not accept it or act in accord with it. He also is wandering from the truth.

Oldmantook said:

An unbeliever is never said to be in the truth to begin with so how can he wander from it?

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Do I have to be in a tree to be able to wander from it? No. I can stand next to it, even admire it and touch it, and then I can walk - or wander - away from the tree. It is not necessary that I actually be in the tree before I can do so. So, too, with the truth. A lost person doesn't have to be in the truth to wander from it. He has only to be in proximity to it in order to wander from it.

Oldmantook said:

Only genuine believers who are in the truth can wander away from it.

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As I've just pointed out, wandering from a thing does not require being in that thing first. I can wander from car to car on a car dealer's lot without ever getting into any of them. What necessitates your claim above? Why must someone be in the truth before they can wander from it? You haven't explained this; you've only asserted it.

By the way, in the passage in question from the book of James, it is never said that the "sinner" was in the truth before wandering from it.

Oldmantook said:

And one can only be brought back to the truth only if he was previously in the truth.

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Again, an unsupported bald assertion. I've explained that wandering from something doesn't require first being in it. I have given examples but can give many more, if you like. How is it, exactly, that wandering from God's truth requires first being in it? Why can't a person wander from it after merely being in proximity to it?

Oldmantook said:

In v.20 how is it possible for a sinner (whom you presume means unsaved) to be brought back from his wandering?

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James doesn't go into detail, does he? It sounds, though, like the saved person pursues the wandering lost person and convinces them to take a serious second look at the Gospel. If they succeed and the lost person is converted, a soul has been saved from death and a multitude of sins covered.

Oldmantook said:

Brought back means this sinner was originally not wandering.

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I can walk up to a car on a car dealer's lot and check it out - you know, kick the tires, look in the windows, admire the paint job and body styling - and then I can wander off to look at a nearby car. I can do this again and again on the car lot. If a salesman brings me back to the first car I looked at to consider it again, is it reasonable to claim I had bought the first car, that it was my possession? Of course not. But this is the very sort of thing you appear to be arguing for concerning those who have checked out the Gospel and wandered from it.

Oldmantook said:

Again only a genuine believer can be said to be wandering from the truth and be brought back as the unbeliever has always remained in a lost state.

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Repeating your mistaken claim doesn't make it true.

Oldmantook said:

Finally, wandering from the truth means sinning as v.20 refers to a multitude of sins.

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??? So what? A lost person who wanders from the truth of the Gospel is, obviously, still living in sin and has a multitude of sins that need to be covered.

Oldmantook said:

Save his soul from death means lost - no longer having eternal life.

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No, it only means the "sinner" never had eternal life and was headed for an eternity in hell. We are told this is the eternal end of the unrepentant lost again and again in Scripture. Asserting that "saved a soul from death" must mean "no longer having eternal life" is reading into the passage what you want to think, not reading the passage as it is. James never even hints that he's talking about a saved person being lost in the passage in question. Such a construction you have imposed on the passage. It is not there in a plain, natural reading of it.

Oldmantook said:

This passage defines itself and you have to overlook a host of words in order to cling to your view.

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Actually, I have shown that I do not.

Oldmantook said:

Thus I find your rationale to be quite weak having no textual support.

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Which you have not yet proven but only asserted.

BCsenior said:

I would like to repeat once again ...
God had the Bible written for His people,
to help them be overcomers as they walk
down that narrow path.
The Bible was not written for those who
are not His elect. Who initially comes to Jesus
just by reading the Bible?

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I'm discipling a fellow right now who came to faith in Christ just this way. He read the Gospel of John and was converted.