Was I in the wrong in the way I tried to defend God?

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
That was specifically given for dealing with church leaders who are supposed to know better. Is she a church leader?
And before we do that, we have to have three witnesses to support any accusation.
 
Upvote 0

PloverWing

Episcopalian
May 5, 2012
4,338
5,024
New Jersey
✟332,494.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I question from time to time if she's even Christian and it feels like I'm coming closer and closer to a realization that she's not and it makes me so sad. Did I make a mistake or should I stick to my guns and tell her that I'm not sorry for defending God's word and that I'm sick of her speaking evil of it (even though she claims to be Christian!).
Do you think it would be possible to set aside your anger and have a calmer discussion with your mother, with less defending and more listening? She's called Ephesians 5 "crap", and you've told her she's going to hell, and neither of those is the start of a productive conversation.

You probably know that Christians hold a variety of opinions on Ephesians 5 and similar passages. You could ask her about her faith, what her view is of Christian marriage, and other questions about her spiritual life, and listen to the answers. Maybe she can ask you why the inerrancy of St Paul's words is so important to you, and you can talk about the importance of the Bible in your life. No accusations, just listening. Would that kind of conversation be possible for the two of you?
 
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
38,978
9,399
✟377,931.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Well, he wasn't preaching on the meaning beyond saying that the Bible says wives submit to your husbands, period. Also, this isn't new to her. She's made these kinds of comments in the past. I've quoted to her clear scriptures in response about the roles of husband and wife and she just brushes it off and has called it wrong. I mean, this isn't the only time. Like I also pointed out, she's mocked/said it was the writings of men (if I can remember right) the story of Job and how he was in the belly of the sea creature as just one example of something she says are just the mere writings of men in the OT. At this point, I feel like telling her that you need to stop blaspheming God. It's not a joke and this is serious. If I didn't care for my mother, then I wouldn't even be telling her it's wrong. I'd do what the world does and go right along with the evil deed.
And what good did that do?
 
Upvote 0

topher694

Go Turtle!
Jan 29, 2019
3,828
3,038
St. Cloud, MN
✟186,760.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What about how the Bible says to rebuke sharply that others may fear? What about what the Bible says about how bad blasphemy is? And, ok, then I was thinking about apologizing for saying that she was going to hell. I'd then tell her that I don't know if you are or not because that's between you and God if you really believe. Then I'd say that blasphemy is not funny and that if you continue to do it, then it will damage our relationship and that I may have to leave and not talk to her anymore if you're going to continue to speak badly of God's word. I mean, if I tell her I'm sorry for telling her that what she said is worthy of hell, then I might as well be apologizing for telling her that blasphemy is something God takes so seriously that people were EXECUTED for it at one time in our religion, during the Old Covenant.

Here's the bottom line. I refuse to apologize for telling her that you can't blaspheme and that it was horribly wrong and that I'm tired of it. Beyond that, what wiggle room should I have and what should I say? I do plan to say that of course I love you mother (definitely). I'm sorry for being so hasty (maybe), but I can't take this anymore and you can't keep blaspheming like that (definitely) or something like that.
Jesus summed up all the law with: love God and love people. We are told to "walk in love" which means live a life that reflects the principles of love. Part of love is that it does not rejoice in iniquity (sin) but it is also patient (some translations say: longsuffering) and kind. That means, we are supposed to be kind in the midst of long suffering. We cannot say we are walking in love if we embrace one principle of love while violating another. I started a thread with much more detail on love yesterday if you are interested.

The question is, what is the end goal? To lead her to Jesus, or be right? You should never compromise your principles, but keep the end goal in mind. If she is blaspheming then that is her issue not yours. Don't make it your issue and let it drag you down, Christ in you is greater than anything she, or anyone, could ever say.
 
Upvote 0
Feb 12, 2019
11
2
27
Mar
✟7,822.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
That was specifically given for dealing with church leaders who are supposed to know better. Is she a church leader?
Scripture says that women cannot have leadership positions in the church, from what I've read, so no... Really? The KJV says flat out this, 1 Timothy 5:20, "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." That isn't the only place either; other parts of the Bible say that we are to rebuke too, such as Titus 1:13, "This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith" and 2 Timothy 4:2, "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" and Titus 2:15, "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."
 
Upvote 0

Danielwright2311

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 28, 2018
2,219
1,358
50
Sacorro NM
✟110,365.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
So my mother claims to be Christian, but she recently said that a certain part of the Bible was wrong. This isn't the first time that she's said some seriously wrong things about the scripture. However, this time I told her, as soon as she said it, that she was going to hell (it was kind of spontaneous because I was fed up with her making these little jabs at scripture all the same). Then I told her that I was serious and she responded with a "Wow...". Then, I told her, "Well, let me rephrase that. What you said is worthy of hell" and then I questioned her about if she even believes at all, saying because Christians will not go to hell. I question from time to time if she's even Christian and it feels like I'm coming closer and closer to a realization that she's not and it makes me so sad. Did I make a mistake or should I stick to my guns and tell her that I'm not sorry for defending God's word and that I'm sick of her speaking evil of it (even though she claims to be Christian!).

Being a Christian is not based on you, its a free gift given by Jesus the son of God.

If we are his and we where sent to him by God, then we will love and follow Jesus and everything he said.

But do not make a mistake like you can do anything to be saved, all you can do is be chosen by God.

If she Believes in Jesus and his death then she is fine.

Jesus said we can say anything at all and it will be forgiven, but one sin, just one.

So if she believes in His death and resurrection and salvation, then she is fine and there should be no judgment between you and her. thats breaking Gods commandment.
 
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
38,978
9,399
✟377,931.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Scripture says that women cannot have leadership positions in the church, from what I've read, so no... Really? The KJV says flat out this, 1 Timothy 5:20, "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear."
The "them" refers to the elders in verse 19.

That isn't the only place either; other parts of the Bible say that we are to rebuke too, such as Titus 1:13, "This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith" and 2 Timothy 4:2, "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" and Titus 2:15, "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."
Titus and Timothy both had a platform as church leaders with which to exercise authority. Are you one of her church leaders?

What good did Jesus rebuking the Pharisees do? What good does rebuking anyone do who makes statements this heinous do?
Good question. What were you trying to achieve by rebuking her the way you did?
 
Upvote 0

topher694

Go Turtle!
Jan 29, 2019
3,828
3,038
St. Cloud, MN
✟186,760.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Scripture says that women cannot have leadership positions in the church, from what I've read, so no... Really? The KJV says flat out this, 1 Timothy 5:20, "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." That isn't the only place either; other parts of the Bible say that we are to rebuke too, such as Titus 1:13, "This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith" and 2 Timothy 4:2, "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" and Titus 2:15, "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."
Timothy and Titus are both directed toward leadership and how a church should be run. We need to be in a position where we have demonstrable fruit in our lives before we start rebuking others on how to live theirs. And even then we need to have some level of authority and permission to speak into their lives. Otherwise Matt 7:1 comes into play.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Scripture says that women cannot have leadership positions in the church, from what I've read, so no... Really? The KJV says flat out this, 1 Timothy 5:20, "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." That isn't the only place either; other parts of the Bible say that we are to rebuke too, such as Titus 1:13, "This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith" and 2 Timothy 4:2, "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" and Titus 2:15, "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."
What we need to look at here is, who is Paul writing to? It was Timothy who was a bishop and therefore had leadership authority over the churches in his region. Titus was also a church leader with oversight authority. This is important, because the question is, if Paul gave these instructions to those with leadership authority in the churches, does that mean that any Tom, Dick, or Harry, without a leadership role, do the same?

Whereas at the start of 1 Corinthians, Paul says that he is not only writing to the Corinthian church, but to all Christians everywhere, there are no similar statements at the start of 1, 2 Timothy, or Titus, giving the impression that these were written exclusively to Timothy and Titus, and by implication, church leaders, but not ordinary church members.

I am no longer an elder of my church, therefore, I cannot use these instructions at all. I no longer have the right, and I would be usurping authorised authorities and acting arrogantly if I tried to instruct and rebuke church members.
 
Upvote 0

miamited

Ted
Supporter
Oct 4, 2010
13,243
6,313
Seneca SC
✟705,807.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why is it not respectful to tell your parents that you're doing something so bad that God commanded people to be put to death for it in the OT? I admit that I probably messed up telling her that she's going to hell, because, if you believe on Jesus, you won't. However, I mean, but if she's not Christian, then am I wrong!?!? What kind of Christian rejects what God says in the Bible and says that the word of God is evil!? I have tried to do this in patience before, MANY TIMES. However, it's been YEARS where she's done this over and over and over.

As for how I should of gone about it, what about rebuking sharply? What about how it says in Luke 12:53, "The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law"?

Hi CIT,

I understand your position. It's not so bad to tell someone that they are doing something for which God commanded that others be put to death for doing such a thing..., if that is in fact what they are doing. However, that just isn't the same as telling someone that they are going to hell. And, as you've admitted yourself, you don't think you handled it properly in retrospect. So, let's agree that in your choice of words, you were wrong. In your desire to defend the truth of God's word, you were right.

As far as what kind of christian rejects what God says in the bible, well, I see that you're fairly new here and as you work your way through many of the various and sundry threads, you're going to find out the answer to that question. You didn't say that she said that the word of God is evil and I would definitely stand against any such claim as that, especially made by someone who claims to be a believer, but even for those who are not, I would offer a defense against such a claim. However, we must always remember that those who are not a part of us, don't think as we think or understand as we understand, the spiritual things of God. There are actually a lot of people, some even standing under a banner of 'christian' who believe that all the death portrayed in the old covenant that claims to be at the direction of God, would make Him evil. The flood, the death of all the firstborn of Egypt, etc.

If she's made similar errors over and over and over again, then you just need to accept that she likely doesn't have a relationship with the Lord and pray for her. But you still need to deal with your mother with respect for who she is. I share your angst. Your mother sounds like she may be pretty much like mine. Mine was even an active pastor for some time and I am assured that she's just totally off the wall as far as understanding who God is. But, I've learned that attacking her understanding as you have done doesn't improve anything. It only makes for a lot of anger and resentment and yes, probably hateful feelings between us.

Yes, Jesus' words were true that faith in him was going to divide families, but I still don't see that such a division is any reason that the believer in the equation doesn't act with gentleness, kindness and respect. So, I will again agree, apparently with you, that your addressing the matter isn't the problem. It's how you addressed the matter.

Anyway, that's my encouragement to you, but understand that many of us have dealt with these same feelings and issues in our families. Jesus has even warned us that it would be so.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,458
8,966
Florida
✟321,755.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
So my mother claims to be Christian, but she recently said that a certain part of the Bible was wrong. This isn't the first time that she's said some seriously wrong things about the scripture. However, this time I told her, as soon as she said it, that she was going to hell (it was kind of spontaneous because I was fed up with her making these little jabs at scripture all the same). Then I told her that I was serious and she responded with a "Wow...". Then, I told her, "Well, let me rephrase that. What you said is worthy of hell" and then I questioned her about if she even believes at all, saying because Christians will not go to hell. I question from time to time if she's even Christian and it feels like I'm coming closer and closer to a realization that she's not and it makes me so sad. Did I make a mistake or should I stick to my guns and tell her that I'm not sorry for defending God's word and that I'm sick of her speaking evil of it (even though she claims to be Christian!).

I don't see how your mother has done anything "worthy of hell". She has an opinion on some part of the bible.
 
Upvote 0

Sparagmos

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2018
8,632
7,319
52
Portland, Oregon
✟278,062.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
"Nice work"... Wow, just wow. Thanks for your "help". I'm wrong for trying to defend the Bible against her blasphemy that she still refuses to recant? No, she's losing spiritual influence with ME. The more she blasphemes and speaks evil of dignities, the more she's driving me away. I have tried to show her! However, she just doesn't care man. This is why I finally got frustrated with her making ANOTHER jab at God and said you know what... and the rest is history.
Your temper and pride is the issue, not your mother. You asked for advice and promptly attacked the advice given? Sounds to me, like anyone who struggles with anger, you are eager to find a “righteous” outlet for your emotions.
 
Upvote 0

Sparagmos

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2018
8,632
7,319
52
Portland, Oregon
✟278,062.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Scripture says that women cannot have leadership positions in the church, from what I've read, so no... Really? The KJV says flat out this, 1 Timothy 5:20, "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." That isn't the only place either; other parts of the Bible say that we are to rebuke too, such as Titus 1:13, "This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith" and 2 Timothy 4:2, "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" and Titus 2:15, "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."
Are you ready to take the rebuke? Or just give it?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,767
7,912
NW England
✟1,041,268.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So my mother claims to be Christian, but she recently said that a certain part of the Bible was wrong. This isn't the first time that she's said some seriously wrong things about the scripture. However, this time I told her, as soon as she said it, that she was going to hell (it was kind of spontaneous because I was fed up with her making these little jabs at scripture all the same).

Not only is that not a great witness, it may not even be true.
Depends what the passage of Scripture was. If it was something about the cross, the Gospel and receiving Jesus, you might have a point, (but only if she continues to reject it.) If it was an obscure passage from the OT, something about Jewish law or about women in church/head coverings/speaking in tongues or something like that; no, you can't go to hell for those things.

Then I told her that I was serious and she responded with a "Wow...".

Don't blame her.

Then, I told her, "Well, let me rephrase that. What you said is worthy of hell"

Really? You are God and can decide what is worthy of hell?

I question from time to time if she's even Christian and it feels like I'm coming closer and closer to a realization that she's not

She might not fit the definition of what you consider a Christian to be, she might not yet have that understanding; that doesn't mean she doesn't have faith and/or a relationship with God.

Did I make a mistake or should I stick to my guns and tell her that I'm not sorry for defending God's word and that I'm sick of her speaking evil of it (even though she claims to be Christian!).

It depends what part of God's word you're talking about and what you believe about the Bible - should it all be taken literally, is a a sin for someone to even question it, for example?
Was your mother mocking it, rejecting ALL of it or just saying that whatever was described in the passage may not have literally happened? If the latter, have you ever considered that she might have a point and that maybe it is your attitude to God's word which is wrong?

Personally, even if it was a central and important passage about the Gospel, and it was clear she was completely rejecting it, I wouldn't have reacted the way you did. I think even you know that that was wrong by the way you corrected yourself and said "let me rephrase that; it's worthy of hell."

Let's just hope that you haven't made it impossible for your mum to talk to you about spiritual things. Who wants to be told, if they have a problem with a passage of Scripture, "you're going to hell/have an attitude that is worthy of hell"? Sounds judgemental to me.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,767
7,912
NW England
✟1,041,268.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well then who's it about? If it's not about me and my mother, then I don't know who it's about then. She blasphemes again. I get mad and tell her that what she did was wrong.

In what way do you believe she blasphemed?
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,767
7,912
NW England
✟1,041,268.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There's really nothing more to say. The Bible says that part of the role of a wife is to submit to her husband.

So if you met/knew of a woman whose husband was an abuser or non Christian, hit his wife and commanded her not to go to church, mocked her beliefs and rebelled against God, your response would be "well you have to submit to your husband"?

A preacher in a video was referencing this kind of scripture and she overheard it and then she essentially called that crap

I wouldn't have used that word, but I can understand that response, and don't necessarily disagree with it.

Are you saying that parts of the word of God are wrong?" Then she said something to the effect of, "Yes, the parts that command that are."

What's wrong is to teach that "submit to your husband" means "obey him, unquestioningly in everything" - it doesn't.
What's also wrong is to read Scripture without any consideration of context, what the author intended and without asking the Holy Spirit to show us how it applies to our lives today. Studying Scripture is good and encouraged - flying off the handle, accusing someone of blasphemy and saying they are worthy of hell, is not.

There isn't anymore detail that I can think of unless I start to go into all the other times she's said things, such as the OT is not important and that parts of it are just writings by mere men and things like that.

The OT is important but it is not easy to understand, and parts of it don't apply to us - e.g food and hygiene laws given to those rescued from slavery in Egypt, were not written to Gentile Christians who follow the One who came to fulfill the law.
That's a fact. If you interpret that as being "she's rejected the Bible, she's worthy of hell", that's YOUR response; doesn't mean it's true.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,767
7,912
NW England
✟1,041,268.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dms1972

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 26, 2013
5,084
1,302
✟593,863.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
So my mother claims to be Christian, but she recently said that a certain part of the Bible was wrong. This isn't the first time that she's said some seriously wrong things about the scripture. However, this time I told her, as soon as she said it, that she was going to hell (it was kind of spontaneous because I was fed up with her making these little jabs at scripture all the same). Then I told her that I was serious and she responded with a "Wow...". Then, I told her, "Well, let me rephrase that. What you said is worthy of hell" and then I questioned her about if she even believes at all, saying because Christians will not go to hell. I question from time to time if she's even Christian and it feels like I'm coming closer and closer to a realization that she's not and it makes me so sad. Did I make a mistake or should I stick to my guns and tell her that I'm not sorry for defending God's word and that I'm sick of her speaking evil of it (even though she claims to be Christian!).

My guess would be that it might be because her understanding of those particular verses is wrong or incomplete, probably because she has heard them out of context. She likely has come away with the impression the verse means something other than it does. If as I see you added, she overheard only a snippet of someone preaching then she has not heard it in context.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0