ALL habitual sinners are NOT in a saved state

I think my favorite part of defining sin is that it's not just what you do, it's what you don't do. As well, it's not just the "common sins", it's attitudes, thoughts, things like anger, hypocricy, white lies...

And we all do these things and other like things daily. And we all do these things habitually. And those who say and/or believe they don't, are liars whom decieve themselves. And those who lay yokes on men to do the things they themselves don't do are Pharisees and hypocrites.
And so by your standard every human being that has ever lived stands condemned.

Fail to be kind to someone? That's sin. Habitually be unkind in xyz situations? That's sin. I could go on but you get the point.

It's a good thing that the only thing that is required for salvation is genuine faith in Jesus and his work done for sinners on the cross. Evidence of salvation is the Holy Spirit's testimony within you, knowing you have a pure and true relationship with God, major sins that you once lived in done away with, etc. It's up to the person to seek evidence of their own salvation, and then they must ignore whispers that they are not saved because of xyz. They must have faith and trust their Father over man and his opinion.

We are redeemed, then we spend our entire life being gradually sanctified by God's mercy and love. And then at the coming of Jesus, we will see God as he is, and all our sin will be done away with. That is the faith.

It is better to be honest about oneself, then to be the hypocrite. Jesus had much to say about hypocrisy. I am not saying the OP is one, but I echo Jesus' caution in saying beware that you not be this person.

Luke 12:1
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

BCsenior said:

Do you mean that you know it's God's will for you
to be goin' to another church, and therefore your
tithe is out of God's will?
Whatever your question is about this ...
I really have no idea.

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I was more referring to the fact that we all here have different religions and many different interpretations of scripture. And if that's the case, then some churches must be teaching falsely and therefore teaching people to sin habitually. But who is to say which is true and which is false. I'm not sure I could, could you?

And perhaps paying a church that teaches people to habitually sin is a sin in itself.

BCsenior said:

IMO, this is all about the necessity of true and sincere
REPENTANCE!

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But a person can repent very sincerely and still be standing outside the narrow gate and not go through.

Oscarr said:

There is a difference between holiness and self-righteousness. True holiness is totally giving up on trying to live a holy life and place our whole dependence on the mercy and grace of God through Christ, accepting Him as Saviour, receiving His pure righteousness, and being converted (totally transformed in our hearts) to hate sin in ourselves and to continually plead with God that He will work in us to develop sanctification.

Those who attempt to live a moral life through their own self effort are seen as self-righteous hypocrites, and when they face the Lord, He will say, "I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity!"

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Okay so how does one differentiate between putting to death the sins of the flesh in their own strength vs. Doing so through the power of God?

It just feels like whenever this distinction comes up it only leads to confusion.

Oscarr said:

But a person can repent very sincerely and still be standing outside the narrow gate and not go through.

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Like, how is one supposed to know they are repenting correctly, according to the way God prescribes, and not in their own strength, which is unacceptable?

Can it not be said that the very desire to repent and follow Christ comes from the Holy Spirits conviction?

devin553344 said:

Do you think someone could sin by giving to the wrong church their tithes? One without authority from God?

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I'm at a loss. I can't find any reference in the New Testament about paying a Jewish tithe to a Christian church. But I can see references to giving to the work of God as much as people can afford to give and to give it joyfully. But the New Testament does not specify a church. Paul collected funds to support the saints in Jerusalem who were going through a famine and having to pay high prices for basic necessities. It is in that context he spoke about giving. But nowhere is there any instruction to pay any sort of "tithe" or subscription to a particular church.

BCsenior said:

Repentance means to hate your sin, run from it, and don’t do it anymore.

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I think these actions are the consequence of repentance, not repentance itself. The heart of repentance is a changing of one's mind. God repents often in Scripture - perhaps more than anyone else in the Bible's record - but He never repented of sin, He did not run from it, nor did He cease from sin.

BCsenior said:

If one does slip up and sins again, he/she can repent again as in 1 John 1:9.

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1 John 1:9 never mentions repentance, only confession.

BCsenior said:

This is repeated until he/she has overcome the sin,
i.e. gained victory over it.

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This isn't the way the Bible tells believers to stand free of sin. May I suggest reading Romans 6, particularly verse 11 and 13, and Romans 8:13, too?

BCsenior said:

All habitual sinners will not inherit
the Kingdom of God
“When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before,
that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21, NLT)
“those who practice such things will not inherit
the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:21, NKJV)

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This passage never says that it is speaking of born-again believers. It makes more sense to me to understand this passage to be describing those who are still dead in trespasses and sins.

BCsenior said:

All habitual sinners will not inherit the Kingdom
of Christ but instead they will experience
the anger/wrath of God
“Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes — these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.” (Ephesians 5:3-6, NLT)
“Let no one deceive you with empty words,
for because of these things the wrath of God
comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
(Ephesians 5:6, NKJV)

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People who live like those wicked described by Paul in the above quotation demonstrate that they were never saved to begin with. In fact, Paul appears to be making a contrast between the conduct of born-again people and those who are not.

BCsenior said:

All habitual sinners will not inherit
the Kingdom of God
“When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before,
that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21, NLT)
“those who practice such things will not inherit
the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:21, NKJV)

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No warning of lost salvation in this passage but rather a description of the evil behaviour of one who has yet to be saved.

BCsenior said:

All habitual sinners will go into the lake of fire
“He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. BUT the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:7-8, NKJV)

May I warn you with all sincerity that “the cowardly” includes those BACs in the world (even now) who fall away from the faith during persecution of Christians.

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This isn't what the passage here says. It contrasts the born-again believer (he who overcomes) with the wicked lost. Your inclusion of "BACs" in the the description of the wicked is completely unwarranted.

BCsenior said:

All habitual sinners will not have the right to the tree of life, and will not be allowed into the city of the New Jerusalem
“Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life,
and may enter through the gates into the city.
But outside are the dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters,
and whoever loves and practices a lie.”
(Revelation 22:14-15, NKJV)

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And, once more, you offer a passage that says not one thing about the saved being lost. You are reading such a construction of meaning into the passage, not drawing it out of the passage. The passage offers another contrast between both the final fate and the conduct of the saved and those who are lost.

friend of said:

Okay so how does one differentiate between putting to death the sins of the flesh in their own strength vs. Doing so through the power of God?

It just feels like whenever this distinction comes up it only leads to confusion.

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We don't turn away from our sins in order to be acceptable to God or to be saved. We turn away from our sins and keep our bodies under subjection because we are saved and are transformed so that our greatest desire is to keep our religion real in our hearts.

BCsenior said:

Teaching them, or just ignoring the issue?
There are dozens of NT verses which warn of
the dire consequences of sinning habitually!
I rarely give my opinion, but I guess the Scriptures
I quote reveal what my opinion is on eternal security.

There is no eternal security, really ...
because salvation is a process!

More evidence is coming forth about ...
MANY BACs will take the mark of the beast
and will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

I knew many would be; I didn't know MANY would be.

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Well I chose a religion, I'm Roman Catholic, it was my best guess at a truth. But many have other opinions. I don't think they're headed for the lake of fire. I think they're trying their best to please God as they understand Him. Thanks for the discussion and God Bless You

friend of said:

Like, how is one supposed to know they are repenting correctly, according to the way God prescribes, and not in their own strength, which is unacceptable?

Can it not be said that the very desire to repent and follow Christ comes from the Holy Spirits conviction?

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A person who reads their New Testament thoroughly and has constant and close fellowship with God in private prayer may not have to ask that question. True conversion is a total transformation in the heart brought about by the Holy Spirit. Why not try a new thing...having an actual discussion with God about it until you get the answers from Him?

aiki said:

I think these actions are the consequence of repentance, not repentance itself. The heart of repentance is a changing of one's mind. God repents often in Scripture - perhaps more than anyone else in the Bible's record - but He never repented of sin, He did not run from it, nor did He cease from sin.



1 John 1:9 never mentions repentance, only confession.



This isn't the way the Bible tells believers to stand free of sin. May I suggest reading Romans 6, particularly verse 11 and 13, and Romans 8:13, too?



This passage never says that it is speaking of born-again believers. It makes more sense to me to understand this passage to be describing those who are still dead in trespasses and sins.



People who live like those wicked described by Paul in the above quotation demonstrate that they were never saved to begin with. In fact, Paul appears to be making a contrast between the conduct of born-again people and those who are not.



No warning of lost salvation in this passage but rather a description of the evil behaviour of one who has yet to be saved.



This isn't what the passage here says. It contrasts the born-again believer (he who overcomes) with the wicked lost. Your inclusion of "BACs" in the the description of the wicked is completely unwarranted.



And, once more, you offer a passage that says not one thing about the saved being lost. You are reading such a construction of meaning into the passage, not drawing it out of the passage. The passage offers another contrast between both the final fate and the conduct of the saved and those who are lost.

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Repentance is a change of attitude to Christ. It is a change of direction from running from God to going to Christ. Conversion is the resulting transformation of the heart that results from repentance. A person can repent, but still fall short of genuine conversion because he thought he could be made okay by his own efforts and religious observances instead of seeing himself as a totally hopeless sinner, deserving of hell, and falling on the mercy of Christ to forgive, save and convert him.

David Cabrera said:

We all have our struggles and we should not assume who is saved or not.

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That is not what James wrote. We all have our struggles but that does not mean we should not attempt to help a brother to turn back from sinning and to repent.
"My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." Js 5:19-20

So you really have no bad habits? How is that possible? Every person has at least the bad habit of getting ticked off by their pet peeves.

BCsenior said:

It's actually BOTH because salvation is a joint effort,
a co-operative effort between God and man.
The Holy Spirit is an absolute necessity to lead us.
But, we have such NT verses as ...
practice righteousness, work righteousness, etc.

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It is not a cooperative effort at all. Man, in his natural state is such a depraved sinner that he would not have any desire toward God at all. He would be totally rebellious and resistant to anything to do with God. The steps to salvation are all of God. He, through the Holy Spirit, brings conviction of sin, shows him the narrow gate, gives directions how to go through it, and then does the work of conversion to transform his heart to love Christ and to walk in His ways the rest of his life.

The practicing and working of righteousness happens after conversion when the heart is transformed to give the desire to do it.

Oscarr said:

True conversion is a total transformation in the heart brought about by the Holy Spirit.

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I agree to an extent. But it sounds like you are saying that if someone is truly converted they will no longer have to battle their flesh, and that if they do, then their conversion isn't genuine. Maybe you were converted this radically (100% regeneration immediately) but I disagree that such is the rule and not the exception when it comes to repentance and dying to self (which indicates a process).

Ongoing wilful sin will cause us a serious problem when it comes to salvation, as opposed to sin of temptation. We need to repent of the ongoing and never plan on doing it again. If we fail, as in sin of temptation, ask forgiveness and move on.

BCsenior said:

Mary K. Baxter's book ... "A Divine Revelation of Hell"
has been translated into 130 languages!
That's the sort of thing the Lord does with whatsoever
He has planned and anointed ... such as the most
famous movie of all time (worldwide) ... "JESUS"
Something like 1480 languages in 225 countries!
Hello!

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It's also the sort of things writers an publishers do in order to make a lot of money.

I don't believe anyone who has said they've gone to Hell and back. I do believe the likely lie sells books.

As to not tithing being a damnable sin, how can that be when the new Testament says we should only give what we can? The term is not in the commandments, nor is it so much as mentioned in the several lists of damnable sins we are warned about in the NT.

The "Robbing of God" mentioned was for not bringing their harvest, it had nothing to do with money.

We are commanded to help the poor, whether by action or giving money.

friend of said:

I agree to an extent. But it sounds like you are saying that if someone is truly converted they will no longer have to battle their flesh, and that if they do, then their conversion isn't genuine. Maybe you were converted this radically (100% regeneration immediately) but I disagree that such is the rule and not the exception when it comes to repentance and dying to self (which indicates a process).

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Agree,

I seriously doubt anyone was converted to be perfect, just like that, or at all for that matter. And anyone that says our conversion is not genuine if we were not, is not telling the truth. It just doesn't work that way.