The Dedication of the Altar in Israel.

keras

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Sheer denial of Paul's consistent use of "naos", in an attempt to malform a misconception to fit a dogmatic preconception.
Why, jgr? Aren't you 'kicking against the goad', somewhat? Acts 28:14b
Bible prophecy is clear; there will be a Temple in the end times and thru the Millennium. Only after the final 1000 years will this apply:
Revelation 21:22 I saw no Temple in the city.....
That fact alone proves there WILL be a new Temple, or there is no reason to say that eventually there will be no need for one.
 
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jgr

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Why, jgr? Aren't you 'kicking against the goad', somewhat? Acts 28:14b
Bible prophecy is clear; there will be a Temple in the end times and thru the Millennium. Only after the final 1000 years will this apply:
Revelation 21:22 I saw no Temple in the city.....
That fact alone proves there WILL be a new Temple, or there is no reason to say that eventually there will be no need for one.
Immutable fulfilled historical Scripture, keras. Read up on the faith, vision, obedience, and sacrifice of the Reformers, without whom we would not have this forum today, confronting and overcoming the man of sin within the Church.

Then give fervent thanks.
 
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keras

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Immutable fulfilled historical Scripture, keras. Read up on the faith, vision, obedience, and sacrifice of the Reformers, without whom we would not have this forum today, confronting and overcoming the man of sin within the Church.

Then give fervent thanks.
I do give thanks. For me not having to confront the sin that is still rampant in the world today.

The ECF's overcame the man of sin? Really; why then do we see instances of shockingly sinful practices within the Church?

Immutable? That word means unchangeable or unchanging.
But if what you meant to use was irrefutable, then you are still wrong. What is plainly told us will happen in the end times, still awaits fulfillment.
 
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jgr

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I do give thanks. For me not having to confront the sin that is still rampant in the world today.

The ECF's overcame the man of sin? Really; why then do we see instances of shockingly sinful practices within the Church?

Immutable? That word means unchangeable or unchanging.
But if what you meant to use was irrefutable, then you are still wrong. What is plainly told us will happen in the end times, still awaits fulfillment.

You ain't seen shockingly sinful until you've seen the war on the saints that claimed martyrs by the thousands.

History is by definition immutable and irrefutable.

You need to recognize and understand the lessons it has taught.
 
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keras

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History is by definition immutable and irrefutable.

You need to recognize and understand the lessons it has taught.
Unless you are a history professor or similar, I guarantee that I would know more about history than you.
There is just nowhere in history that proves any past event is a fulfilment of Revelation. Excepting for the first Five Seals, opened at Jesus' Ascension, that include the Christian martyrs since Stephen and still being added to today.

You fail to properly address the points that I raised. Too hard for you are they?
 
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parousia70

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However, I am willing to agree that as God will require sacrifices again in the new Temple, then as Ezekiel 44:7-9 does say: Those uncircumcised in mind and body defile My House...….it will be a requirement, at least for the Priests on the Temple. Before and during the Millennium.

So when you said:
I do not mean that God will again demand physical circumcision.
Jesus' Advent cancelled that, but it is the Spiritual C, of the heart, that is required.

Were you just flat our wrong?
Misinformed?
Speaking before thinking?
Hopefully, you were not deliberately lying...

Perhaps you weren't as knowledgable about the scriptures concerning Circumcision as you previously thought?

Now, after conversing with little old me, your BRAND NEW THEOLOGICAL POSITION, AS OF TODAY, is that Jesus’ Advent didn't cancel that at all.
Jesus’ Advent did nothing and was POWERLESS to cancel this future requirement of physical circumcision.

Well, even though I vehemently disagree with your conclusions, I do commend you for admitting here that your position was in error and opposition with itself, and then completely flipping your position a full 180 degrees, to remain consistent with itself, when I pointed out your obvious error.

Wrong but Strong!
Bravo.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Why, jgr? Aren't you 'kicking against the goad', somewhat? Acts 28:14b
Bible prophecy is clear; there will be a Temple in the end times and thru the Millennium. Only after the final 1000 years will this apply:
Revelation 21:22 I saw no Temple in the city.....
That fact alone proves there WILL be a new Temple, or there is no reason to say that eventually there will be no need for one.
What about the Temple/Naos being measured in Revelation 11?

Luke 21:24

“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”
Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833>, without of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations an
and the holy City they shall be treading/pathsousin <3961> (5692) forty two months.

The Court in Revelation 11:2

Matthew 24:1
And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
Mark 13:1
And He going forth out of the Temple,
Luke 21:5
and of some saying concerning the Temple,
 
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jgr

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Unless you are a history professor or similar, I guarantee that I would know more about history than you.
There is just nowhere in history that proves any past event is a fulfilment of Revelation. Excepting for the first Five Seals, opened at Jesus' Ascension, that include the Christian martyrs since Stephen and still being added to today.

You fail to properly address the points that I raised. Too hard for you are they?

Congrats there, keras, you just won today's guffaw du jour prize. Where in kiwiland should I send it?

You a futurist and I an historicist, but you "know more about history" than I. Riiiiiiiiight.

I'll surpass your guarantee, every time.

Now, to your Revelation temple. The first reference to a temple in Revelation is Revelation 3:12:

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

I'm presuming you agree that that is a spiritual pillar in a spiritual temple. Otherwise, be careful that you never overcome, because you'll find yourself physically immobilized for eternity in heaven supporting the part of the physical temple superstructure assigned to you.

That would be more hell than heaven.

Now, check the Greek (if you dare) for temple in Revelation 3:12.

What do you see?

Right. It's a "naos" temple.

Now, check the Greek for every other occurrence of "temple" in Revelation.

What do you see?

Right. Every one of them is a "naos" as well.

Which means that every reference in Revelation to a temple, is a reference to a spiritual temple.

John in Revelation was following the convention that Paul used in his own epistles, to consistently identify the spiritual temple of the believer and Church as a "naos" temple.

Hardly a surprise. For John tells us almost immediately upon entering Revelation:

Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Why was John in the Spirit?

To permit him to understand Spiritual realities, of course. What else?

Spiritual realities like spiritual temples, supported by spiritual pillars.


Not too hard for you, I hope, but I realize that I may be overly optimistic.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Marilyn C said:
Hi tranquil,

Interesting thoughts there on the extra days & would like to talk about that with you some time.

As to `naos` & `hieron` we read that when the Lord was referring to the temple of Solomon/Herod, he always used the word `hieron,` whereas Paul, referring to the temple where the A/C would set himself up, is `naos,` a temple elsewhere.

Marilyn.
Hi Marilyn,

In every instance outside of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 where Paul refers to the temple, it is a reference to the spiritual temple of every believer, collectively, the Church; and it is a "naos".

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is also a "naos". There is no reason to believe that Paul meant anything other than the spiritual temple of every believer, collectively, the Church.

The man of sin would situate himself spiritually within the Church.
keras said:
Sheer denial of plain scriptural prophecy. Words that tell of a physical man sitting in a real Temple. 2 Thessalonians 2:4
For now, as there is no Temple in Jerusalem, we Christians represent the Temple, spiritually. But this is just for the Church age, soon to be over and what God asked for before, will again be done.
Sheer denial of Paul's consistent use of "naos", in an attempt to malform a misconception to fit a dogmatic preconception.
keras said:
Why, jgr? Aren't you 'kicking against the goad', somewhat? Acts 28:14b
Bible prophecy is clear; there will be a Temple in the end times and thru the Millennium. Only after the final 1000 years will this apply:
Revelation 21:22 I saw no Temple in the city.....
That fact alone proves there WILL be a new Temple, or there is no reason to say that eventually there will be no need for one.
Immutable fulfilled historical Scripture, keras. Read up on the faith, vision, obedience, and sacrifice of the Reformers, without whom we would not have this forum today, confronting and overcoming the man of sin within the Church.

Then give fervent thanks.
keras said:
I do give thanks. For me not having to confront the sin that is still rampant in the world today.

The ECF's overcame the man of sin? Really; why then do we see instances of shockingly sinful practices within the Church?

Immutable? That word means unchangeable or unchanging.
But if what you meant to use was irrefutable, then you are still wrong. What is plainly told us will happen in the end times, still awaits fulfillment.
You ain't seen shockingly sinful until you've seen the war on the saints that claimed martyrs by the thousands.

History is by definition immutable and irrefutable.

You need to recognize and understand the lessons it has taught.
keras said:
Unless you are a history professor or similar, I guarantee that I would know more about history than you.
There is just nowhere in history that proves any past event is a fulfilment of Revelation. Excepting for the first Five Seals, opened at Jesus' Ascension, that include the Christian martyrs since Stephen and still being added to today.

You fail to properly address the points that I raised. Too hard for you are they?
Congrats there, keras, you just won today's guffaw du jour prize. Where in kiwiland should I send it?

You a futurist and I an historicist, but you "know more about history" than I. Riiiiiiiiight.

I'll surpass your guarantee, every time.
I had heard the Christadelphian and SDA sects hold to that view.
I don't agree with it, and but that is for a different thread........

Historicism

Historicism is loyal to, though not sponsored by, the Seventh-day Adventist church.

From 1985 to 1991 Historicism offered 98 papers and six supplements. For the first six years it placed special emphasis on Dan 11. In 1991 the theme topic switched from Daniel to the book of Hebrews. And of course there were papers on Revelation to go with those on Daniel.

Ninety-three of the ninety-eight papers, and five of the supplements, that appeared in Historicism were written by Frank Hardy, so for the most part "us" is me, if we could say it that way. All other writers who supplied papers for the journal had one or more terminal degrees, whether in law, or medicine, or biblical studies. The one exception to this generalization was a supplement (1989) which constitutes the entire text of its author's M.A. thesis.

Now retired, I was a computer programmer for the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists from 1996 to 2012.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/CriticalArticles/2001_mccarter_schwertly.html

I have offered many preterists the opportunity to a public debate, both by sending emails as well as by public announcements on many internet lists. In response, I have received nothing but excuses as to why such a debate would be unnecessary or counter-productive or separating friends or they just do not like historicists or… It strikes me that if preterism has such a strong case to make, and historicism is so inept and antiquated (to be buried along with Wyckliffe, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, etc.), that a preterist would be willing to demonstrate as much in a formal public debate. And the Reformed Theological Resource Center has graciously offered to sponsor just such a debate. But, alas, the offer is declined by preterists.

Nevertheless, this historicist is keeping the offer and challenge open, if any preterist is willing to take it. In the meantime, I would encourage those interested in reading the historicist side to refer to my critiques at:.................
===================
 
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jgr

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I had heard the Christadelphian and SDA sects hold to that view.
I don't agree with it, and but that is for a different thread........

Historicism

Historicism is loyal to, though not sponsored by, the Seventh-day Adventist church.

From 1985 to 1991 Historicism offered 98 papers and six supplements. For the first six years it placed special emphasis on Dan 11. In 1991 the theme topic switched from Daniel to the book of Hebrews. And of course there were papers on Revelation to go with those on Daniel.

Ninety-three of the ninety-eight papers, and five of the supplements, that appeared in Historicism were written by Frank Hardy, so for the most part "us" is me, if we could say it that way. All other writers who supplied papers for the journal had one or more terminal degrees, whether in law, or medicine, or biblical studies. The one exception to this generalization was a supplement (1989) which constitutes the entire text of its author's M.A. thesis.

Now retired, I was a computer programmer for the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists from 1996 to 2012.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/CriticalArticles/2001_mccarter_schwertly.html

I have offered many preterists the opportunity to a public debate, both by sending emails as well as by public announcements on many internet lists. In response, I have received nothing but excuses as to why such a debate would be unnecessary or counter-productive or separating friends or they just do not like historicists or… It strikes me that if preterism has such a strong case to make, and historicism is so inept and antiquated (to be buried along with Wyckliffe, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, etc.), that a preterist would be willing to demonstrate as much in a formal public debate. And the Reformed Theological Resource Center has graciously offered to sponsor just such a debate. But, alas, the offer is declined by preterists.

Nevertheless, this historicist is keeping the offer and challenge open, if any preterist is willing to take it. In the meantime, I would encourage those interested in reading the historicist side to refer to my critiques at:

PURITAN NEWS RESOURCE PAGE

In addition, consider the on-line books and articles at:

Historicism

It has much in common with partial preterism, but sees additional prophecy fulfilled in the interval leading up to the Reformation, consistent with the Reformers' own prophetic recognitions and understandings.

It is found in denominations with Reformation roots e.g. Lutheran, Reformed, Methodist; as well as SDA.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Marilyn C said:
Hi tranquil,Interesting thoughts there on the extra days & would like to talk about that with you some time.
As to `naos` & `hieron` we read that when the Lord was referring to the temple of Solomon/Herod, he always used the word `hieron,` whereas Paul, referring to the temple where the A/C would set himself up, is `naos,` a temple elsewhere.

Marilyn.
Very few Bible versions render #3485 and "sanctuary/naos".
Here, Jesus uses #2411....the Temple complex of which the Naos/Sanctuary was one of the buildings within it:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple<2411>.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
Mark 13:
1 And He going forth out of the Temple>2411>, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple<2411>, that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>
6 “These which ye are beholding.

It may interest some here that the greek word Jesus used G2411 for "Temple" is never once mentioned in the entire book of Revelation.
The Sanctuary/Naos consisted of the Holy place and most Holy Place and #3485/naos is what is being measured in Revelation 11.
John is told to cast out the Court and not measure........that is what is given to the Gentiles......

I view this as the 70ad Temple/Sanctuary being measured...............

The Altar would be the Golden Altar of Incense.......

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying
"rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary/Naos<3485> of the God and the Altar and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833, without of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
and the holy City they shall be treading/pathsousin <3961> (5692) forty two months.


It is the same word used for the palace/court of the Chief Priest.....

Matthew 26:3
Then were gathered together the Chief-priests and the Scribes, and the Elders of the people to the court/fold/aulhn <833> of the Chief-priest who was called Caiaphas [Revelation 11:2]

The amount of years it took for the Naos to be built is the same number of times that word is used in the NT. I found that interesting.

John 2:
19 Jesus answered and said to them, 'Destroy this sanctuary<3485>, and in three days I will raise it up.'
20 The Jews, therefore, said, 'Forty and six years was this sanctuary building, and wilt thou in three days raise it up
?

G3485 (YLT)
G3485 ναός (naos),occurs 46 times in 40 verses
ναός, ναοῦ, ὁ (ναίω to dwell), the Sept. for הֵיכָל, used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of holies
(in classical Greek used of the sanctuary or cell of a temple, where the image of the god was placed, called also δόμος, σηκός, which is to be distinguished from τό ἱερόν, the whole temple, the entire consecrated enclosure; this distinction is observed also in the Bible; see ἱερόν, p. 299{a}):
Matthew 23:16f, 35 27:40; Mark 14:58; Mark 15:29; John 2:19; Revelation 11:2;
nor need Matthew 27:5 be regarded as an exception, provided we suppose that Judas in his desperation entered the Holy place, which no one but the priests was allowed to

G2411(YLT)
G2411 ἱερόν (hieron), occurs 71 times in 67 verses
STRONGS NT 2411: ἱερόν
ἱερόν, ἱεροῦ, τό (neuter of the adjective ἱερός, ἱερά, ἱερόν; cf. τό ἅγιον) (from Herodotus on), a sacred place, temple: of the temple of Artemis at Ephesus, Acts 19:27; of the temple at Jerusalem twice in the Sept., Ezekiel 45:19; 1 Chronicles 29:4; more frequent in the O. T. Apocrypha; in the N. T. often in the Gospels and Acts; once elsewhere, viz. 1 Corinthians 9:13. τό ἱερόν and ὁ ναός differ, in that the former designates the whole compass of the sacred enclosure, embracing the entire aggregate of buildings, balconies, porticos, courts (viz., that of the men or Israelites, that of the women, that of the priests), belonging to the temple; the latter designates the sacred edifice properly so called, consisting of two parts,
 
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keras

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Not too hard for you, I hope, but I realize that I may be overly optimistic.
As I am unable to untangle your beliefs and your replies are just scathing remarks, I will withdraw from this discussion.
Good luck as you go thru all the forthcoming events!
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi Marilyn,

In every instance outside of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 where Paul refers to the temple, it is a reference to the spiritual temple of every believer, collectively, the Church; and it is a "naos".

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is also a "naos". There is no reason to believe that Paul meant anything other than the spiritual temple of every believer, collectively, the Church.

The man of sin would situate himself spiritually within the Church.

Hi jgr,

No possibility for the man of sin to be spiritually within the Body of Christ!

`For the Body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.`(1 Cor. 12:12)

Marilyn.
 
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jgr

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Hi jgr,

No possibility for the man of sin to be spiritually within the Body of Christ!

`For the Body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.`(1 Cor. 12:12)

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

The man of sin was not a single man, just as the man of God is not a single man.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The "man of sin" was men arising and situated within the Church.

Acts 20
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

2 Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

2 Peter 2
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.

2 Peter 3
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
 
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To all who are scoffing
Of whom I am one...

We will see, & I believe we wont have to wait long to see Israel, the nation in partial blindness, starting their daily sacrifices again. I personally believe it will be next year.
And assuming that were to happen (which I do not for an instant believe) why would Christians take any pleasure in such an abomination?
 
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I am glad our Lord does't think like this poster: Israel would not have a chance.
Israel "has a chance" through its Redeemer, as do we all. No more stone temples or slaughtered livestock.
 
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Better go read the last ten chapters or so of Ezekiel!
Back to Temple Judaism then, think you? Why do we need redemption at all, then? Just croak a few cattle to square accounts.
 
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To all who are scoffing,
We will see, & I believe we wont have to wait long to see Israel, the nation in partial blindness, starting their daily sacrifices again. I personally believe it will be next year.
After the Russian Federation is dealt with by God on the mountains of Israel, (early next year) then Israel will spend 7 months cleansing the land by burying the dead bodies. (Ez. 39: 12) (220 days is 7 months and 10 days.)
Here is my diagram with the relevant scripture.
It will be a great tourist attraction.........
Of whom I am one...
And assuming that were to happen (which I do not for an instant believe) why would Christians take any pleasure in such an abomination?
Indeed!
Israel "has a chance" through its Redeemer, as do we all. No more stone temples or slaughtered livestock.
Back to Temple Judaism then, think you? Why do we need redemption at all, then? Just croak a few cattle to square accounts.
I would say Revelation is anti-OC Mosaic Judaism.....
Why else are the NC Hebrew Christian Saints singing the song of Moses and of the Lambkin in Revelation 15 when OC Jerusalem fell in 70ad?

Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Song of Moses

Revelation 15:3
and They are singing the Song of-Mosheh, the bond-servant of the God, and the song of the Lambkin,
s
aying, `Great and marvelous the works of Thee, Lord!, the God, the Almighty,
just and true the ways of Thee, the king of the [*Ages/Saints] Nations
[Exodus 15:1-2]

And there is this covenantle parable in Luke 16 that harmonizes with the covenatnatle book of Revelation like white on rice........hardly anyone mentions this parable in relation to the NC vs OC in Revelation.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Luke 16:19
19 A certain Man was rich and clothed in purple and fine linen
making-merry down to a-day, shiningly<2988>

29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' "
30 "And he said, 'Nay father Abraham!
but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

JOHN 5:
45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses youMoses, in whom you trust.
46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote about me.
47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"
Mat 3:9
“and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.'
For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
Luk 3:8
“Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.'
For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

New House New Stones
the stones will "cry out".


Habakkuk 2:11
The stone/s of the wall<7023> shall cry-out<2199>, and the beams of the woodwork will echo it.

Luke 19:
39 And some of the Pharisees from the crowd said to Him, “Teacher! rebuke Your disciples.”
40 And answering He said, “I am saying to ye, that if these will be silent,

the stones shall be crying-out.

44 And shall be leveling thee and thy offspring in thee, and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in thee, instead which not thou knew the time of thy visitation".


Mark 13:1

Then as He went out of the Temple, one of His Disciples said to Him,
“Teacher! see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!”

1Peter 2:5

you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual House,
a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
..................

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