Is college necessary to make a reasonable living

blackribbon said:

I heard someone describe it as any major that end in the word "studies"... as in your friend's "African
American Cultural Studies" or "Women Studies'...etc....

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that's not a bad observation.

funnily enough, those sorts of majors aren't necessarily bad, they are just missing a few vital courses. If you married those majors to something with a Business component, Marketing Component, Human Behavioral component, or Political Science Component then your major would have value.

I'd imagine that in the political world, having quantifiable knowledge of "women" or "African Americans" as relates to political theater (polling, sampling, influencing, etc) is something of immense value.

A little while ago I was on the periphery of a business deal gone bad between a group of White businessmen and Investors of color (Black and Hispanic). The Hispanic guy had on a short sleeved polo shirt that showed tattoos on his arm. One of the tattoos was a picture of someone with a date beneath it. In the urban community (Black and Hispanic) this sort of tattoo is INSTANTLY recognizable as a RIP --rest in peace-- tattoo, as in someone died. In the urban community, you don't really talk about those tattoos unless the person with the tattoo brings it up. Unfortunately, the businessmen didn't know that and they were asking questions about it and confusing it with a gang tattoo but asking if it is a gang tattoo in a roundabout way. To be fair, from their perspective the questions and observations were earnest and I'm sure they didn't mean any disrespect... but that is not how they came across. The mood in the room immediately soured and went south. The deal didn't go through and those questions were the principle reasons.

Had there had been a guy with "African American Cultural Studies" in the Businessman's group that question would not have come up or at the least they could have asked their guy first...

I guess what I'm saying is that there are places and opportunities for the knowledge in those "studies" degrees to make a difference. However, in order for that to be the case, those studies need some anchoring to other stuff that is more core and more useful.

If I were to make an analogy to the human body... Muscles are extremely useful but if they aren't anchored to a skeleton then they are just useless masses of tissue. I believe that all knowledge has power but said knowledge needs to be applied over some sort of "core" or "Skeleton".

In today's world, there are various cores and skeletons you can graft knowledge onto: computers, digital, online, social media, business, marketing, politics, etc.

dgiharris said:

that's not a bad observation.

funnily enough, those sorts of majors aren't necessarily bad, they are just missing a few vital courses. If you married those majors to something with a Business component, Marketing Component, Human Behavioral component, or Political Science Component then your major would have value.

I'd imagine that in the political world, having quantifiable knowledge of "women" or "African Americans" as relates to political theater (polling, sampling, influencing, etc) is something of immense value.

A little while ago I was on the periphery of a business deal gone bad between a group of White businessmen and Investors of color (Black and Hispanic). The Hispanic guy had on a short sleeved polo shirt that showed tattoos on his arm. One of the tattoos was a picture of someone with a date beneath it. In the urban community (Black and Hispanic) this sort of tattoo is INSTANTLY recognizable as a RIP --rest in peace-- tattoo, as in someone died. In the urban community, you don't really talk about those tattoos unless the person with the tattoo brings it up. Unfortunately, the businessmen didn't know that and they were asking questions about it and confusing it with a gang tattoo but asking if it is a gang tattoo in a roundabout way. To be fair, from their perspective the questions and observations were earnest and I'm sure they didn't mean any disrespect... but that is not how they came across. The mood in the room immediately soured and went south. The deal didn't go through and those questions were the principle reasons.

Had there had been a guy with "African American Cultural Studies" in the Businessman's group that question would not have come up or at the least they could have asked their guy first...

I guess what I'm saying is that there are places and opportunities for the knowledge in those "studies" degrees to make a difference. However, in order for that to be the case, those studies need some anchoring to other stuff that is more core and more useful.

If I were to make an analogy to the human body... Muscles are extremely useful but if they aren't anchored to a skeleton then they are just useless masses of tissue. I believe that all knowledge has power but said knowledge needs to be applied over some sort of "core" or "Skeleton".

In today's world, there are various cores and skeletons you can graft knowledge onto: computers, digital, online, social media, business, marketing, politics, etc.

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That's why such things should never be "majors," but "concentrations." Using your analogy, the "major" should be the bone.

RDKirk said:

That's why such things should never be "majors," but "concentrations." Using your analogy, the "major" should be the bone.

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agreed

I just had a thought/question...

When did these "useless majors" start appearing in colleges?

If I had to hazard a guess, I guess it would have been in the 70s/80s when Congress passed a law making it way easier to get student loans???

It also seems borderline unethical for you to go to college to "Major" in something that really should be at best a "concentration" as you put it.

A girl I dated in college majored in Spanish. She graduated college and was what I would call "barely" fluent in Spanish. Truth be told, she partied for 4 years and her sole purpose for going to college was to "find a husband". Unfortunately, that didn't happen, so she enrolled again and actually did another 4 years, graduated with another degree but again no husband. FWIW, her family was rich

dgiharris said:

agreed

I just had a thought/question...

When did these "useless majors" start appearing in colleges?

If I had to hazard a guess, I guess it would have been in the 70s/80s when Congress passed a law making it way easier to get student loans???

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Here is where I tend to agree with the last half of "The Bell Curve."

I do think those "studies" were elevated to "majors" in order to get people into college who had no business being in college.

My son was certainly smart enough for college, scoring mid to high 90's in every FCAT he ever took but didn't want to sit in a classroom after high school.

At 27 he's a ASE certified master mechanic making about 75k/year (no benefits). He found something he likes that he's good at. He didn't go to trade school, used his experience and study guides to pass all the tests. It's not a path for everyone but it can be done.

StromRider said:

My son was certainly smart enough for college, scoring mid to high 90's in every FCAT he ever took but didn't want to sit in a classroom after high school.

At 27 he's a ASE certified master mechanic making about 75k/year (no benefits). He found something he likes that he's good at. He didn't go to trade school, used his experience and study guides to pass all the tests. It's not a path for everyone but it can be done.

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And while I'd congratulate him and advise most kids to take a similar route, I'd also say that he needs to start looking beyond wrench turning--such as owning a business and planning for the season when he won't be physically able to keep up the same pace. That might require college, such as a community college AA in small business management.

A key to your success will be how much debt you plan on having. If you have no debt than you can live a very comfortable life. The thing most do is spend everything they make on paying off the debts they have, vehicles, house, tuition, loans, you name it. Take a look at the debt to income ratio you have or plan to have or even think you would have. I know someone that is a self made no college educated millionaire and he is debt free. There are also those that are highly educated that have so much debt they cant save a dime. Money is not the key to happiness.

RDKirk said:

Here is where I tend to agree with the last half of "The Bell Curve."

I do think those "studies" were elevated to "majors" in order to get people into college who had no business being in college.

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Yes, in tandem with that is that many colleges turned themselves into business centers with the "business" being turning their institutions into Government Student Loan Processing Factories...

It is criminal the way all of the colleges have more or less colluded in such a way as to acquire as much student loan money as possible.

So as to the point you are making, you are absolutely right. Turn these "studies" into "Majors" and now you have a fresh new batch of Student loans to process via people who had no business being in college...

not to mention some of the quacks they call professors teaching these courses. I feel that courses like "Women's studies" or "African AMerican Studies" are prone to a lot of quackery by crazy ego-maniacs sitting aloft in their ivory towers of Academia spouting knowledge to students as if what they say are edicts coming direct from God.

These quacks have no real world experience and they are quite literally poisoning the minds of their students with looney-bin type dribble. And to make matters worse, these colleges often serve as echo chambers for the quacks. They publish their papers in tiny journals that only they read. I vaguely recall some stat that the papers published in these journals are referenced at a rate of 25 times less than all other academic subjects... It is not uncommon for their publications to have never be cited or referenced even once.

New Birth said:

A key to your success will be how much debt you plan on having. If you have no debt than you can live a very comfortable life. The thing most do is spend everything they make on paying off the debts they have, vehicles, house, tuition, loans, you name it. Take a look at the debt to income ratio you have or plan to have or even think you would have. I know someone that is a self made no college educated millionaire and he is debt free. There are also those that are highly educated that have so much debt they cant save a dime. Money is not the key to happiness.

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Debt isn't necessarily a bad thing, the problem we have as a society is that we red line our debt and we intrinsically reach a steady state where our income coming in equals our income going out.

I had a friend who made $40k a year living by herself in TX where $40k a year is a decent amount of money. She had the normal debt but was living paycheck to paycheck. She then got a big raise, to $50k per year. The very first thing she did was buy a boat. Yes, she bought a boat despite the fact that she hardly every goes fishing or to the lake (like once a year). When I asked her about this she said matter-of-factly "Well, now I can afford a boat"

I pointed out that "Actually no you can't, you were living paycheck to paycheck and now with more money you go out and get a boat so you are again living paycheck to paycheck..."

All that is required is to spend less money than you make. That is all, and that INCLUDES having debt.

If your living expenses (to include entertainment, clothing, food, shelter, misc, etc) are $2,000 per month and then if your debt comes out to an additional $1,000 per month then your total expenses are $3,000 per month. If you make more than $3,000 you are fine, if you make less than $3,000 a month you are in trouble. Ideally, you'd like the delta between your TOTAL income vs expenses/debt to be greater than 10%, that is, you'd like to make at least 10% more income than you have expenses and debt.

The problem as in the case with my friend above, is that people keep resetting and redrawing their lines when they make more money.

When people get a raise instead of just maintaining the same standard of living, they oftentimes trade up and assume more debt putting them back to the same level of rat-race that they were at.

So debt isn't necessarily a problem, the real problem is simply spending more than you make. Obviously, if paying off the debt is more than you make then yeah you have a problem. But debt in and of itself isn't necessarily bad.

RDKirk said:

And while I'd congratulate him and advise most kids to take a similar route, I'd also say that he needs to start looking beyond wrench turning--such as owning a business and planning for the season when he won't be physically able to keep up the same pace. That might require college, such as a community college AA in small business management.

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He is thinking of starting his own shop some day, he has a good idea of what does/doesn't work and would like to be able to run things his way. I work at a college so he could get the family discount for courses.

dgiharris said:

All that is required is to spend less money than you make.

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That's living paycheck to paycheck. You also need to put money aside for emergencies.

dgiharris said:

When did these "useless majors" start appearing in colleges?

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They didn't so much "appear" as result from changes in the traditional humanities.

dgiharris said:

A girl I dated in college majored in Spanish. She graduated college and was what I would call "barely" fluent in Spanish.

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Standards are the other big issue.

dgiharris said:

A little while ago I was on the periphery of a business deal gone bad between a group of White businessmen and Investors of color (Black and Hispanic). The Hispanic guy had on a short sleeved polo shirt that showed tattoos on his arm. One of the tattoos was a picture of someone with a date beneath it. In the urban community (Black and Hispanic) this sort of tattoo is INSTANTLY recognizable as a RIP --rest in peace-- tattoo, as in someone died. In the urban community, you don't really talk about those tattoos unless the person with the tattoo brings it up.

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But do they teach useful things like that in "African American Cultural Studies," or do you just pick that stuff up by hanging out with people?

Radagast said:

But do they teach useful things like that in "African American Cultural Studies," or do you just pick that stuff up by hanging out with people?

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if you study "African American Culture" you are going to study some hip hop, and hip hop has ties to gang culture, and there are certain tattoos that are just basic in gang culture. The RIP tattoo is one of them.

It would be like getting a major in English and not being familiar with a phrase like "It's raining cats and dogs outside..."

The RIP type of tattoos is really so basic that to me, it blows my mind that people wouldn't recognize it... but any one of us feels that way about things we grew up with...

Just sayin...

dgiharris said:

if you study "African American Culture" you are going to study some hip hop, and hip hop has ties to gang culture, and there are certain tattoos that are just basic in gang culture. The RIP tattoo is one of them.

It would be like getting a major in English and not being familiar with a phrase like "It's raining cats and dogs outside..."

The RIP type of tattoos is really so basic that to me, it blows my mind that people wouldn't recognize it... but any one of us feels that way about things we grew up with...

Just sayin...

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I don't even know what "RIP type tattoo" even refers to.

Let me Google it.

....

RIP Tattoo Ideas | Designs for Rest in Peace Tattoos - Ranker
RIP Tattoo Ideas
Searching for ways to honor a loved one who has passed on? Look no further. This list rounds up unique and touching ideas for memorial and RIP tattoos, from ...

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First page of Google and I still wouldn't know the black gang relationship of RIP tattoos, although my initial impression was that they were derived from motorcycle gangs 'way back in the 60s. I'm pretty sure I saw that happening back then.

If you want to be a firefighter, paramedic or police personnel it is my impression that those jobs are quite competitive and require experience and training. If you are aiming for those jobs as well as studying hard in high school, I think it may be good to start planning early and getting some relevant work experience. From what I have read many firefighters have university degrees in fire science, so while I do not think that everyone should to go to university, it seems having a university degree may increase your chances of getting a job as a firefighter.

Something to consider is that almost nothing in this life is guaranteed, so I believe it may be good to be able to have a back-up plan if for whatever reason there comes a point when you are unable or unwilling to continue in your current job and need another option.

It is my impression that generally, it is indeed harder to get higher-paying jobs without a college or university degree. There are certain jobs where a university degree is a requirement. There are jobs that either do not require a bachelor's degree or do not require a college degree (at associate's level or above) at all, but generally I would expect those jobs to pay less than jobs that require college degrees. However, having a university degree does not guarantee that one would get a high-paying job.

There may be vocational training programs or apprenticeships in your area, such as physical therapy assistant, emergency medical technician, or nursing and healthcare assistant training programs. Sometimes those programs could give you the foundation and entry requirements for certain college programs. Even if you know are certain about what career you want to go into and a college degree is not a requirement, that does not necessarily mean university degree would not be useful (although I personally do not believe that every student should go to university).

Not everyone has the financial means to complete a university degree, but I also believe that not everyone necessarily has the educational background or academic capability to complete a university degree, so there are several factors to consider in the decision of whether or not to go to college, but not everyone has the choice of going to college.

If it is feasible, you could take a gap year after high school where you work and/or travel before deciding whether to go to college.

Personally, when considering possible careers I may want to go into, factors I have considered besides whether they would provide stable income is whether they would utilise my skills well, and above all whether the career I am considering would bring glory to God through the Lord Jesus Christ and serve others for their good.

Information about careers:
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Information about alternatives to university, such apprenticeships and alternative courses:
Apprenticeships & Debt-Free Education – Find Funded College Courses, Distance Learning and Work Experience in the UK
What are the requirements to be a paramedic? (paramedic requirements)
Police Training | Police Academy Training | Police Officer Training
Fire Science Degrees & Careers | How to Become a Firefighter
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Become a Certified Child Care Provider: Certification and Career Info