Truths of the New Testament

Douggg said:

Not based up religion, although they will all be Christians when Jesus returns. But based upon family history.

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Are you claiming that those of Jewish heritage will automatically be converted to Christians on the day of Christ's Second Coming?

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BABerean2 said:

Your two statements above are an oxymoron.

First you say if my mother's mother was a Jew, but the records were lost, I would be a Jew.


Then you turn around and claim it is determined by family history.

Which is the truth?

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Your example was about the records of your mother being lost, but of her being a Jew but her not knowing it. If your mother is a Jew, regardless whether she knows it or not, you would still be a Jew.

Then you went off on a different tangent about DNA. And I wrote back to forget about the DNA arguments, because in the bible, who is a Jew or not doesn't go by DNA, but by family history.

BABerean2 said:

Are you claiming that those of Jewish heritage will automatically be converted to Christians on the day of Christ's Second Coming?

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No, I am not.

The Jews, Israel, become Christians during the middle part of the forthcoming 7 year 70th week. It is in Revelation 12:10, verified in Revelation 12:17.

Douggg said:

No, I am not.

The Jews, Israel, become Christians during the middle part of the forthcoming 7 year 70th week. It is in Revelation 12:10, verified in Revelation 12:17.

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Why would you think those under "the blood of the Lamb" are not Christians?

Why would you think those who have "the testimony of Jesus Christ" are not Christians?

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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BABerean2 said:

Why would you think those under "the blood of the Lamb" are not Christians?

Why would you think those who have "the testimony of Jesus Christ" are not Christians?

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They will be Christians. But it is still in the future, when they become Christians.

Revelation 12:6-17 has not happened yet.
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Will you not agree with me that the majority of Jews and the nation of Israel today are not Christians, as we speak?

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:6-17 has not happened yet.

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Are you claiming that Satan and the wicked angels are still in heaven in the presence of God, and Christ, and the souls of our dead Brothers and Sisters?

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(Has this already happened?)
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

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Douggg said:

Your example was about the records of your mother being lost, but of her being a Jew but her not knowing it. If your mother is a Jew, regardless whether she knows it or not, you would still be a Jew.

Then you went off on a different tangent about DNA. And wrote back to forget about the DNA arguments, because in the bible, who is a Jew or not doesn't go by DNA, but by family history.

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If my mother was from a Jewish background, but did not know it, would she have Jewish DNA?

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BABerean2 said:

Are you claiming that Satan and the wicked angels are still in heaven in the presence of God, and Christ, and the souls of our dead Brothers and Sisters?

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No, definitely not. Paul had indicate three heavens - which God's throne is in the third heaven.

In Revelation 12:7-9, it doesn't say 1st, 2nd, 3rd heaven directly in the text. But it implied the second heaven, the cosmos, because Satan is cast down to earth, which our atmosphere is the first heaven. And the cosmos later in the seven years gets rolled back, in Revelation 6, the sixth seal events.

More than one level of heaven, is also in Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The good angels can travel back and forth in all three heavens.

Douggg said:

No, definitely not. Paul had indicate three heavens - which God's throne is in the third heaven.

In Revelation 12:7-9, it doesn't say 1st, 2nd, 3rd heaven directly in the text. But it implied the second heaven, the cosmos, because Satan is cast down to earth, which our atmosphere is the first heaven. And the cosmos later in the seven years gets rolled back, in Revelation 6, the sixth seal events.

More than one level of heaven, is also in Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The good angels can travel back and forth in all three heavens.

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Do you think Satan can now travel to Saturn?


2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

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keras said:

Yes, that is the case now, they actively discourage Christianity.

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I totally agree. Most strongly from the counter missionary movement.

Have you ever considered why the person who is going to be the arch villain of the end times doesn't just take in all that has been said about him and avoid that path?

Well it is because he is a Jew. And Judaism have inadvertently being training the person that none of the prophecies in the New Testament and talk about the Antichrist - are all fairly tales. It is strongly taught in Judaism, that the Christian Testament has no relevancy to Judaism.

keras said:

But your contention that those people will convert sometime, is wrong and unsupported by scripture. I can post 20+ prophesies that plainly state how the Lord will Judge them and just the Messianic remnant will survive.

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You could probably go over to Zechariah 13:8-9, which appears to be saying that only a third will survive the great tribulation.

BABerean2 said:

Do you think Satan can now travel to Saturn?

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And beyond, to the limits of the cosmos.

BABerean2 said:

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

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Yes, there are many there right now, in the great gulf that separates the comfort side from the torment side, which would also be called the bottomless pit.

Douggg said:

And beyond, to the limits of the cosmos.


Yes, there are many there right now, in the great gulf that separates the comfort side from the torment side, which would also be called the bottomless pit.

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So you think some of the wicked angels have been bound to the pit, but some have not?

Did they all sin?

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BABerean2 said:

So you think some of the wicked angels have been bound to the pit, but some have not?

Did they all sin?

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Yes. And yes.

keras said:

Zechariah 13:9 says that the 1/3rd of Judah that survive the initial Judgement, the Sixth Seal event, must pass thru fire and be refined.

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I am not reading anything in the text of the KJV about an initial Judgment.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

The fire is metaphoric for difficult times, not literal. Fire is used in the processing of gold and silver.

keras said:

Face up to the truth: The Jewish people won't be on earth while you sit in heaven. That whole idea is a fable that will never happen. You will be on earth, together with all our Christian brethren.

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I have no idea of what you are saying. But Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus speaking in the text is talking about the house of Israel, not the church. The people Jesus is speaking about as the house of Israel...trespassed against him, therefore He hide his face from them.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

keras said:

Fire is what the Lord uses to test His peoples faith and trust in Him. 1 Peter 4:12
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 describes this process. It will be literal fire. 2 Peter 3:7
My point is that only a small remnant of the Jews will make it thru this test.

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Metaphoric, for a trial.

1Peter1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell
upon the earth.

Your belief of ethnic Israel, as the inheritors of those Promises, is in total conflict with Bible teaching.

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Ezekiel 39:21-29 is speaking about the house of Israel of the end times, which will inherit the Kingdom of God. Additionally, in Ezekiel 39:25, the house of Israel, Jacob, is brought out of captivity in the end times, and none are left in the nations, Ezekiel 39:28.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Jesus is not talking about the church.

keras said:

Of course you can't understand the truths of prophecy, while you must have a separate Church and Israel to maintain the belief of a 'rapture to heaven'.

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Ezekiel 39:21-29 makes it clear that Israel is not the church, and vice versa.

The rapture is a separate topic, and applies to the church.

Douggg said:

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is speaking about the house of Israel of the end times, which will inherit the Kingdom of God. Additionally, in Ezekiel 39:25, the house of Israel, Jacob, is brought out of captivity in the end times, and none are left in the nations, Ezekiel 39:28.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Jesus is not talking about the church.

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Are you saying that every modern Orthodox Jew in the world is going to move to the middle east, or is the passage from Ezekiel a reference to what we find below in the Book of Hebrews?


Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

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BABerean2 said:

Are you saying that every modern Orthodox Jew in the world is going to move to the middle east, or is the passage from Ezekiel a reference to what we find below in the Book of Hebrews?

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Jesus in Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

When Jesus returns, He will bring every single Jew back to the land of Israel.

The Jews (Judaism) call this event (although they don't believe it will be Jesus who does it) "the final redemption". Not what you and I would call redemption, because we think in terms of soul and body, being Christians; and are from all nations of the world don't have the same desire.