The Prophet Elijah returning is through John the Baptist?

ViaCrucis said:

John came in the spirit and power of Elijah for the purpose of calling the people to repentance in anticipation of the coming of the Messiah.

-CryptoLutheran

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Yet according to Malachi Elijah himself will be sent.

Elijah's work becomes a succession.

Elisha Succeeds Elijah

2 Kings 2
13 He picked up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. 14 He took the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and struck the water, saying, “Where is the Lord, the God of Elijah?” When he had struck the water, the water was parted to the one side and to the other, and Elisha went over.

15 When the company of prophets who were at Jericho saw him at a distance, they declared, “The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.”

John the Baptist responds to the question correctly. He answers from his own perspective which is above their heads. Jesus speaks to the Apostles from where they are at.

Neostarwcc said:

So a few things. One I just got educated on the Jewish Prophecy that says that Elijah is going to return. Apparently Christ says that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of that prophecy. But my question is though that if John the Baptist was the fulfillment of that prophecy than why did he say that he wasn't Elijah before the Romans killed him? I mean the Jews raise a really good point and didn't God say that the prophet Elijah would come as himself and not as John the Baptist? I'm confused.

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They have and are of the very same spirit, and belong to the same spirit, and in that way, are the same, and are same person (reborn?) as will be the one who is the same spirit as they, that is destined to come before Christ returns and will again prepare of make the way for Him (Christ)...



God Bless!

Rubiks said:

Yet according to Malachi Elijah himself will be sent.

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In the Gospels it's abundantly clear that Malachi's prophecy is applied to John the Baptist.

-CryptoLutheran

Neostarwcc said:

So a few things. One I just got educated on the Jewish Prophecy that says that Elijah is going to return. Apparently Christ says that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of that prophecy. But my question is though that if John the Baptist was the fulfillment of that prophecy than why did he say that he wasn't Elijah before the Romans killed him? I mean the Jews raise a really good point and didn't God say that the prophet Elijah would come as himself and not as John the Baptist? I'm confused.

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John was not Elijah - rather he came in the spirit and power of Elijah. This is why Christ gives him that title.

Of course "literally" - Elijah himself does show up -- in Matthew 17.

No, he will be back during the Tribulation period
"But I tell you that Elijah has already come."

~ Jesus

If you wish not to believe Jesus, that's your prerogative.

I think, in all fairness, you need to understand the other's point of view.

The reference to Elijah yet returning is to the two witnesses mentioned in The Revelation. As I understand this co-relates to Old Testament prophecies I do not have at hand.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Notice the type of miracles they perform in verse 6 and how they relate specifically to two in the Old Testament:

1. Elijah praying that it would not rain
2. Moses and the plagues of Egypt.

Therefore Elijah has come [John the Baptist] and will come as one of the two witnesses.

I remember this because it was used as a classic example of the double mention of prophecy.

Its quite likely not everyone agrees with this interpretation but I have generally accepted it.

ViaCrucis said:

Says who? Funny thing about the Revelation, lots of aspects about it are a bit fuzzy. St. Augustine thought the two witnesses were the Old and New Testaments of Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

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In fact, from scripture itself we know that the two witnesses were not two individuals but rather two groups, or assemblies. John the Revelator likens lampstands to churches (1:20), as he does with the witnesses (11:4).

Elijah was represented by John to fit with the humility of God's message in this coming. Jesus embraced this servant role, and showed such a proud bravery in his sacrifice. People thought Jesus would come with spectacles and defeat the Roman Empire, but he came to show them the best part of his philosophy instead. Rome could be spiritually defeated and it was a victory, in itself.

Instead of an incredibly flashy return of Elijah on a chariot, we see John showing that same great discipline but with different goals. One of my favorite things to read is when John the Baptist is talking about the greatness of Jesus in the Gospel of John. He showed such a committed love to God in his big humility. Everything was about nailing the point home of putting your flesh on the cross.

When John rejects being Elijah so simply that's basically God's way of saying "You guys failed to read my prophecies right over and over again, so I'm not gonna baby you. Analyze this."

Neostarwcc said:

So Malachi's prophecy has already been fulfilled and Elijah is coming back himself when Christ returns?

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Elijah already came back. Two thousand years ago.

Have you not been following?

Neostarwcc said:

I just said that essentially...

"So Malachi's prophecy has already been fulfilled?"

Thanks for repeating what I already said. And I was commenting on his post not yours. I already know and acknowledge your point because it's been said by like 4 different people here. I also agree with you and agreed with my post that you just quoted. So... yeah...

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Oh, okay.

Then Jesus has returned. Is that your concern now?

Neostarwcc said:

So Malachi's prophecy has already been fulfilled and Elijah is coming back himself when Christ returns?

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I don't know what happened, the part you quote me as saying is actually what someone else has said, whom I was quoting.

What I stated begins with, "I think, in all fairness..."

I am not sure if I can edit the post to fix this quote, and I will have to find who said it. I suggest you re read what I said and then ask your question again. I have copied below the statement I made concerning this.

Llewelyn Stevenson said:

I think, in all fairness, you need to understand the other's point of view.

The reference to Elijah yet returning is to the two witnesses mentioned in The Revelation. As I understand this co-relates to Old Testament prophecies I do not have at hand.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Notice the type of miracles they perform in verse 6 and how they relate specifically to two in the Old Testament:

1. Elijah praying that it would not rain
2. Moses and the plagues of Egypt.

Therefore Elijah has come [John the Baptist] and will come as one of the two witnesses.

I remember this because it was used as a classic example of the double mention of prophecy.

Its quite likely not everyone agrees with this interpretation but I have generally accepted it.

Click to expand...

God bless.

I think it should be noted that Elijah was taken up body and soul. This is most likely the reason his work could continue in Elisha and John the Baptist and also come back in person.

In Malachi God promises to send "Elijah the prophet". Jesus confirms in several places that John was indeed the prophesied Elijah. We have one reference wherein John denies being Elijah.

So... here's how I see it... God couldn't have been lying in Malachi. Jesus couldn't have been lying in the Gospels. And John, a prophet of God, couldn't have been "lying" when he denied being Elijah. However, John may have been consciously unaware of who he was as it related to his inner man, his spirit.

Remember, man is body (material form), soul (seat of reason, will, emotions), spirit (the inner man, living essence, and seat of spiritual consciousness). If the "spirit" of Elijah was born as John the Baptist, the "soul" would have been conditioned from birth to be John the Baptist.

I believe that while Elijah was caught away bodily in the OT, a case can be made that he wasn't taken to Heaven, and that Elijah actually later succumbed to physical death.

We can note that the fifty men that searched for Elijah for three days to no avail were sure he had been dropped by the whirlwind somewhere in the direction they had seen him taken. (2 Kings 2:17)

Another very important point many overlook is when Joram (King of Israel) begins to reign. (2 Kings 1:17, 3:1) This appears to be just before or just after Elijah had already been taken, because Joram and Jehoshaphat (King of Judah) join forces and are consulting the prophet Elisha. (2 Kings 3:8-11)

After Joram had been King of Israel for a few years, Jehoshaphat died and his son Jehoram began his eight year reign in Judah. After five or six years, Elijah sent a writing by messenger scolding Jehoram for the wrong things he had been doing while king. (2 Chronicles 21:12-15) The message also pronounced a judgment from the Lord upon him, his people and his family. The letter came true when Jehoram was stricken with a bowel disease the last two years of his life. (2 Chron. 21:16-20) His family was taken except for his youngest son Ahaziah, who reigned after Jehoram for one year.

After Joram had reigned for twelve years and Ahaziah had reigned one year after Jehoram died; Jehu slew them both. (2 Kings 9:24-28) The letter from Elijah would have been roughl seven years after Elijah was taken by the whirlwind. Bible commentaries also agree that it was after Elijah had been taken away by the whirlwind.

Also, with regards to this letter, Josephus states: "For he was yet upon the earth". (Antiquities of the Jews 9, 5:2)

In Harper's Bible Dictionary numerous fasts and feasts of the Jewish calendar are listed. It states the tenth day of the second month Ziv was a fast to commemorate the death of Elijah. If he was taken to Heaven, why would the Jews commemorate his death???

Evidently, after the whirlwind, Elijah was close enough that he could get information about what had taken place where he had previously been. He was also close enough to send a messenger with the writing of reprimand.

In this case, the event of Elijah's death would be considered as being not documented. There is nothing in the Bible that tells of him going straight to the throne room of God.

Aquila0121 said:

There is nothing in the Bible that tells of him going straight to the throne room of God.

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I agree he didnt pierce the veil but Elijah appeared bodily on the mountain of Christ's Transfiguration.

Eloy Craft said:

I agree he didnt pierce the veil but Elijah appeared bodily on the mountain of Christ's Transfiguration.

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As did Moses, who did die and was buried. Clearly they were both in glorified spiritual form.

I know my position might be unpopular or truly in the minority, but I believe that the "spirit" (or inner man) in John the Baptist was indeed the very same "spirit" that resided in Elijah. I believe that the "soul" (or mind) of that "spirit" was indeed different in John the Baptist due to his birth and upbringing in the first century. So, John didn't know that he was Elijah, but as Jesus confirmed, he was.

Now, many will see the similarity of this with "reincarnation". However, it isn't reincarnation. Reincarnation is a teaching in Eastern religions about how salvation is attained through multiple lives in process of purging sin and illusions. In ancient Judaism there was a teaching called Gilgul, translated, "the rolling of the soul". This was not experienced by all souls. It was experienced only by those souls with a divine mission to fulfill an aspect of "tikkun olam", or, "the healing of the world", that might take more than one lifetime. Another form of Gilgul, which might be in play here with Elijah and John was known as Ibbur. Ibbur described a type of "impregnation" of the soul in which the soul of a righteous individual who had died was impregnated in the life and person of a living individual in order for them to fulfill mitzvah, or a divinely appointed good deed, through the living individual.

While these doctrines are not specifically spelled out in Scripture, I believe they logically describe the issue with John being the prophesied Elijah quite well. Allowing for God to be true about actually sending, "Elijah the Prophet" and Christ's proclamation that John was the coming Elijah... while also explaining why John apparently didn't know that he was indeed the Elijah which was to come.

I do not see this idea on the level of "doctrine". It's merely an interpretive opinion of what might be transpiring in these texts. Men greater than me disagree, and I respect that. However, seeing that words have meaning, I believe that this theory allows for the most literal interpretation of how John was indeed Elijah.

Aquila0121 said:

As did Moses, who did die and was buried. Clearly they were both in glorified spiritual form.

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Satan argued for the body of Moses and a holy angel said "may the Lord correct you". Moses' bodily appearance with Elijah at the Transfiguration confirms that Satan was corrected by the Lord.