Christian Perfectionism - Jesus said "Be perfect like My Father" - Can we be?

Can we be perfect in this lifetime?

  • No, only Jesus was perfect. Jesus didn't mean what He said when he asked us to be.

    Votes: 5 45.5%
  • Yes, it is possible, through the baptism of the Holy Spirit that makes us not want to sin.

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • We receive imputed righteousness, like an invisibility cloak over the sins that will always remain.

    Votes: 5 45.5%

  • Total voters
    11

Gideons300

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Why would they?



I'm aware of what John wrote.

You wrote:

"Please note and quote what 1 John 1:10 says when quoting 1:9. He is talking about sin deniers, not about getting your sins forgiven."

Whatever verse 10 says, in verse 9, John is most definitely talking about "getting your sins forgiven."

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.




Have I said that a Christian doesn't possess forgiveness? No. I've said exactly the reverse. But, like a box of band-aids one has bought from the drug store, if one doesn't apply the bandages in the box to one's wounds, the bandages won't protect the wounds. So, too, forgiveness. We are forgiven in Christ and clothed in his righteousness and thereby are accepted by God, but when we sin, as the apostle John wrote, we must confess that sin to God in order to obtain cleansing and restoration of our fellowship (not relationship, though) with God.

What happens when you "forget one"? Your unconfessed sin bars you from properly enjoying God. It doesn't mean your relationship to Him is lost, however. If you think you have sin standing between you and God, but can't remember what it is, follow the example of the Psalmist who wrote:

Psalms 19:12
12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.


Psalms 139:23-24
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.


If you want to know if there is sin hindering your fellowship with God and what it is, simply pray and ask God to show it to you. He's always more than willing bring to light your sin and cleanse you of it.



The work of Christ at Calvary is finished but his work in you is not.

We have a lovely new shower in our home. It works great! The installer did a fine job of putting in the shower. His work is finished and finished very well. But, you know, the shower only benefits us when we get into it, and turn on the water, and stand in its soothing, cleansing spray. Has the installer of the shower not finished his work because we have to take steps to benefit from his work? I don't see how this is a reasonable conclusion. The same goes for the forgiveness we have in Christ.
Thank you for your input brother.

Here is a question that needs to be asked? Why would any child of God, if he or she is aware that they have sinned and the Holy Spirit has tried to correct them, not want to repent and turn from it?

The danger is great. Why? Because continuing in sin hardens the heart and our faith is weakened. If our faith is weakened and Christ dwells in our hearts by faith, it makes abiding in Him impossible.

God is gracious and full of mercy, longsuffering towards us. But if we refuse the correction and discipline of the Spirit, we put our souls in great danger.

That is why we are exhorted to give all diligence to make our calling and election sure. The OSAS doctrine has led much of the church into a false assurance that since all their sins, past present and future are forgiven, we can do what we want and still find our mansion move-in ready when we get to the Pearly Gates of Heaven.

Who do we think those people were that were religious but had no desire for righteousness to actually be seen in their behavior? It is always someone else, not us. But on that final judgment, we will see emblazoned on the gates into eternity:

“Let all who name the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

And if that is not our heart cry, it is time to hit our knees and beg Him to do whatever it takes to awaken us from our death sleep.

God gives grace, but will not be used as we continue to please ourselves. Until we truly HATE our sin and long to be freed from the old carnal us that loves sin, we are walking a tightrope over hell.

Blessings,

Gideon
 
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ralliann

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When false teachers don't take statements out of context, we see that all the apostles and Jesus Himself taught perfectionism. Even the unknown writer of Hebrews said "without holiness no man shall see God.

What advice can you give those who want to obey Jesus and be perfect, as their Father God is perfect?

No faithless nay sayers of "that's impossible" please. Only positive exhortation.
Noah was a perfect man. Was he sinless in your eyes?
Ge 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. {perfect: or, upright }
De 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
 
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timothyu

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All Christians sin but not all Christians are in the habit of sinning.

This is what many especially of political mindedness use as a perceived loophole to avoid living in the ways of the Kingdom. They pick out what is sin to use against others and ignore those sins that if no longer practised themselves would defeat their worldly purposes.
 
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timothyu

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Are you suggesting that if we do not reach sinless perfection in this life then we cannot be saved?

Would that not first depend on whether the world hated us for not playing their game (even if we occasionally stumbled)?
 
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aiki

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Here is a question that needs to be asked? Why would any child of God, if he or she is aware that they have sinned and the Holy Spirit has tried to correct them, not want to repent and turn from it?

Why indeed? If a person is genuinely born-again, and enjoys daily, joyful, loving fellowship with God, it is very unlikely that they will indulge in anything that would adversely affect that fellowship. But the majority of people today claiming to be saved never have any such fellowship - most often, I think, because they aren't truly saved.

The danger is great. Why? Because continuing in sin hardens the heart and our faith is weakened. If our faith is weakened and Christ dwells in our hearts by faith, it makes abiding in Him impossible.

Well, I don't think a genuine child of God simply continues rebelliously in sin. No one in whom the Spirit truly dwells can just wander off into wicked living. The Spirit convicts them, agitates them, makes them uncomfortable with sin. And God promises to chastise His children when they go wrong (Hebrews 12:5-11), bringing them back into right relationship with Himself by doing so. It isn't, then, that the Christian can just take up sin as they like. There are immediate spiritual, psychological and even physical consequences that God mounds up on the believer if they persist in their sin. Of course, that means that if someone claims to be saved but is never checked by God through divine discipline, their claim is, in my view, in very serious doubt.

The faith to believe the Gospel and trust in Christ as my Saviour originates with God. He gives me, by His Spirit, the capacity to believe (John 6:44; Romans 12:3; Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 1:13). And so, my faith is not me-dependent but God-dependent. Whatever sin may crowd my life, it cannot utterly snuff out the faith that comes from Him. It was that same faith that enabled me, when I was "dead in trespasses and sins" and "alienated from God and His enemy by my wicked works" to trust in Christ. If the faith given me by God was able to persist under such conditions in order to bring me to salvation, it will not dry up in the face of my sin after my salvation. And this has been exactly my experience.

God is gracious and full of mercy, longsuffering towards us. But if we refuse the correction and discipline of the Spirit, we put our souls in great danger.

I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. If my salvation in any measure depends upon me, upon my success in living as God calls me to, then I am subscribing to works-salvation which the Bible flatly rejects (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5). Rather than putting my relationship to God in jeopardy, my sin cuts me off from fellowship with God, as the profligate living of the Prodigal Son did with his fellowship with his father. My soul is eternally secure in Christ, who has purchased it with his own blood at Calvary and made me forever a joint-heir with him.

That is why we are exhorted to give all diligence to make our calling and election sure. The OSAS doctrine has led much of the church into a false assurance that since all their sins, past present and future are forgiven, we can do what we want and still find our mansion move-in ready when we get to the Pearly Gates of Heaven.

I have held to OSAS for all of my adult life and have never been moved to this sort of thinking and living. The same is true for all of the other believers I know personally who hold to this soteriological view. I have, though, been in many churches teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine that were filled with fearful, legalistic, and hypocritical believers.

One of the terrible things about the SAL (saved-and-lost) perspective is that it motivates a believer's obedience to God by way of fear rather than the love God commands (Matthew 22:36-38; 1 Corinthians 13:1-3; 1 John 4:16-19). This fear, though, is ultimately self-serving; it arises from a desire for self-preservation, not love for God. Fear, then, puts Self where God ought to be in motivating right living and is why God rejects it as a motive for walking with Him. The only obedience He accepts from us is that obedience that begins with, and arises from, the First and Great Commandment.

Many expecting acceptance by Christ will be rejected by him at the Final Judgment because, while they might have cast out demons and done many miracles in his name, they never actually obeyed the one command that comes before all others: Love God with all of your being. And so it is that Paul the apostle wrote:

1 Corinthians 13:3
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.


Who do we think those people were that were religious but had no desire for righteousness to actually be seen in their behavior?

The Bible calls them "tares," false converts, who never really loved God with all of their heart, mind, soul and strength.

But on that final judgment, we will see emblazoned on the gates into eternity:

“Let all who name the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

I appreciate the grand drama in this declaration, but I don't recall reading anything in the Bible about what is written on the "gates into eternity"...

And if that is not our heart cry, it is time to hit our knees and beg Him to do whatever it takes to awaken us from our death sleep.

Brother, if this isn't a person's heart's cry, falling on their knees in supplication to God is not going to happen until God does what only He can do to make such a thing possible. It is the man whom God has already awakened from his "death sleep" who begs God to make him holy.

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.


God gives grace, but will not be used as we continue to please ourselves. Until we truly HATE our sin and long to be freed from the old carnal us that loves sin, we are walking a tightrope over hell.

We ought absolutely to hate our sin, but it is only God who can make us do so properly and fully. And while God works to make us despise Self and the sin Self produces, He also works to form in us a greater and greater LOVE for Him. And it is this love, not merely our hatred of sin, that takes us into the heights of joyful, rich, obedient fellowship with our Heavenly Father.

No where in the New Testament do I read of a tightrope along which a wayward Christian walks above the yawning mouth of hell. But I do read of God's hand holding me secure, out of which I cannot be drawn by any man (which includes me). (John 10:27-29)

Blessings to you, too, Gideon.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Are you suggesting that if we do not reach sinless perfection in this life then we cannot be saved?

Don't ask me, work out your own salvation.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Ah. Well I think it's heretical to say that unless you reach sinless perfection that you cannot be saved. Anyone who teaches this is a false teacher.

That is your choice to believe what you want.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Gideons300

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Why indeed? If a person is genuinely born-again, and enjoys daily, joyful, loving fellowship with God, it is very unlikely that they will indulge in anything that would adversely affect that fellowship. But the majority of people today claiming to be saved never have any such fellowship - most often, I think, because they aren't truly saved.



Well, I don't think a genuine child of God simply continues rebelliously in sin. No one in whom the Spirit truly dwells can just wander off into wicked living. The Spirit convicts them, agitates them, makes them uncomfortable with sin. And God promises to chastise His children when they go wrong (Hebrews 12:5-11), bringing them back into right relationship with Himself by doing so. It isn't, then, that the Christian can just take up sin as they like. There are immediate spiritual, psychological and even physical consequences that God mounds up on the believer if they persist in their sin. Of course, that means that if someone claims to be saved but is never checked by God through divine discipline, their claim is, in my view, in very serious doubt.

The faith to believe the Gospel and trust in Christ as my Saviour originates with God. He gives me, by His Spirit, the capacity to believe (John 6:44; Romans 12:3; Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 1:13). And so, my faith is not me-dependent but God-dependent. Whatever sin may crowd my life, it cannot utterly snuff out the faith that comes from Him. It was that same faith that enabled me, when I was "dead in trespasses and sins" and "alienated from God and His enemy by my wicked works" to trust in Christ. If the faith given me by God was able to persist under such conditions in order to bring me to salvation, it will not dry up in the face of my sin after my salvation. And this has been exactly my experience.



I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. If my salvation in any measure depends upon me, upon my success in living as God calls me to, then I am subscribing to works-salvation which the Bible flatly rejects (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5). Rather than putting my relationship to God in jeopardy, my sin cuts me off from fellowship with God, as the profligate living of the Prodigal Son did with his fellowship with his father. My soul is eternally secure in Christ, who has purchased it with his own blood at Calvary and made me forever a joint-heir with him.



I have held to OSAS for all of my adult life and have never been moved to this sort of thinking and living. The same is true for all of the other believers I know personally who hold to this soteriological view. I have, though, been in many churches teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine that were filled with fearful, legalistic, and hypocritical believers.

One of the terrible things about the SAL (saved-and-lost) perspective is that it motivates a believer's obedience to God by way of fear rather than the love God commands (Matthew 22:36-38; 1 Corinthians 13:1-3; 1 John 4:16-19). This fear, though, is ultimately self-serving; it arises from a desire for self-preservation, not love for God. Fear, then, puts Self where God ought to be in motivating right living and is why God rejects it as a motive for walking with Him. The only obedience He accepts from us is that obedience that begins with, and arises from, the First and Great Commandment.

Many expecting acceptance by Christ will be rejected by him at the Final Judgment because, while they might have cast out demons and done many miracles in his name, they never actually obeyed the one command that comes before all others: Love God with all of your being. And so it is that Paul the apostle wrote:

1 Corinthians 13:3
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.




The Bible calls them "tares," false converts, who never really loved God with all of their heart, mind, soul and strength.



I appreciate the grand drama in this declaration, but I don't recall reading anything in the Bible about what is written on the "gates into eternity"...



Brother, if this isn't a person's heart's cry, falling on their knees in supplication to God is not going to happen until God does what only He can do to make such a thing possible. It is the man God has already awakened from his "death sleep" who begs God to make him holy.

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.




We ought absolutely to hate our sin, but it is only God who can make us do so properly and fully. And while God works to make us despise Self and the sin Self produces, He also works to form in us a greater and greater LOVE for Him. And it is this love, not merely our hatred of sin, that takes us into the heights of joyful, rich, obedient fellowship with our Heavenly Father.

No where in the New Testament do I read of a tightrope along which a wayward Christian walks above the yawning mouth of hell. But I do read of God's hand holding me secure, out of which I cannot be drawn by any man (which includes me). (John 10:27-29)

Blessings to you, too, Gideon.
Thank you for your time and effort in your reply. i rthink part of the issue is that we need to clear up our whole concept of being saved. When one says "once saved, always saved", whether there is error or not depends largely upon
This post is to make YOU think.
Oh no, has it come to that? :)
 
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Gideons300

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Thank you for your time and effort in your reply. i rthink part of the issue is that we need to clear up our whole concept of being saved. When one says "once saved, always saved", whether there is error or not depends largely upon

Oh no, has it come to that? :)
Next thing you are going to tell me is our only hope is prayer! LOL
 
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Gideons300

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Thank you for your time and effort in your reply. i rthink part of the issue is that we need to clear up our whole concept of being saved. When one says "once saved, always saved", whether there is error or not depends largely upon

Oh no, has it come to that? :)
sorry for the messed up responses. I promise to do better!
 
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Neogaia777

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1 John 3:9
Because sin is no longer and cannot be charged against them anymore, if they truly believe and are born again, it is charged to Jesus account... They are no longer responsible for it but Christ is, because He does that for them, ect...

Now, if they are truly walking in the Faith and pursuing Love, sin will be taken care of along the way or in the walk as they or you go, and it will be because of God, (or Christ) not them...

In that way they are not really sinning anymore even along the way... Even the mistakes, God will show out not to be mistakes, ect, for the born again believer, who submits his or her will to God's will, ect... Because He is at the helm of their life after that, ect... Working all of it/that out (for the good) even the mistakes, especially the mistakes, that will not turn out to be mistakes, but will be for and to and toward His glory, ect... Working out all of it to and for that end, ect... Using you and some of us to do or for that now, ect...

God Bless!
 
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1stcenturylady

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Because sin is no longer and cannot be charged against them anymore, if they truly believe and are born again, it is charged to Jesus account... They are no longer responsible for it but Christ is, because He does that for them, ect...

Now, if they are truly walking in the Faith and pursuing Love, sin will be taken care of along the way or in the walk as they or you go, and it will be because of God, (or Christ) not them...

In that way they are not really sinning anymore even along the way... Even the mistakes, God will show out not to be mistakes, ect, for the born again believer, who submits his or her will to God's will, ect... Because He is at the helm of their life after that, ect... Working all of it/that out (for the good) even the mistakes, especially the mistakes, that will not turn out to be mistakes, but will be for and to and toward His glory, ect... Working out all of it to and for that end, ect... Using you and some of us to do or for that now, ect...

God Bless!


If you are talking about mistakes we make while walking in the Spirit then I agree. 1 John 1:7 But if you are talking about willful sins of lawlessness 1 John 3:4, someone walking in the Spirit won't have any desire to be committing them at all. 1 John 3:9; Hebrews 10:26-31; Romans 6:2, 7; Romans 8:9
 
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