a thought

twin1954 said:

I would ask that you give me some references that I may look at. Not too many though, I don’t have th,e time to go through a whole mess of passages. Thanks

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How do you "not have the time" to look up Scripture? LOL

Get on Biblegateway.com and type in the word "repent". (It's not that hard.) Do you know what a concordance is. Do you use one?

twin1954 said:

I am a Baptist who holds to historical Baptist Covenant Theology. I do not identify as Reformed because I differ with them on the law as a rule of life and on progressive sanctification. I do not adhere to either the Westminster or 1689 London confessions. My theology is more like John Gill. The men you mentioned were, at least some of them, nice men who I would call brethren. Again I would disagree with men such as Sproul, Piper and others on some things. MacArthur I consider a heretic because of his Dispensationalism and his legalist Lordship Salvation.

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Jesus isn't your Savior and not your Lord - it doesn't work that way! LOL

I would consider Dispensationalism heretical also.

As well as "ins and outs" of particular historical theology of preachers, teachers and confessions, I'm not particularly very familiar with any of them. I know of them. I've read through some of them. I don't study them. I don't tend to read commentaries or theologian books for theological insight. (I find them interesting for informational / historical purposes.)

My theology comes from utilizing concordances, dictionaries, word study helps; but I don't necessary agree with all the dictionary definitions I've read either. Mostly I compare Scripture with Scripture. That's how I study the Bible. I have also found some use in researching Biblical history.

Hazelelponi said:

Your not wrong, I simply believe your not looking at the whole view.

However, my husband declared, that as I have not studied systematic theology enough, I'm going to get into a contest of sorts, and lose if we continue along this path, so it is considered by those who know me most, for it to be best for me to bow out and allow the more theologically educated to discuss this topic with you in full.

Lovely meeting you, and God bless.

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You are welcome to continue in the discussion. Ask questions and give your thoughts. That is actually the best way to learn.

redleghunter said:

I believe the above is where the term process comes from.

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Actually no. As it is used in Scripture it never means a process.

StillGods said:

I think I will just go with if a person repents and believes in Jesus then they are saved.

if people want to be saved then Jesus will save them. well the Jesus I know will anyway.





I think I will forget about 'being elect" or not being a deciding factor, it complicates everything.

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Not one ever came to Christ, even in the millenniums since His death, seeking mercy because of their sin has ever been turned away.

The Apostle Paul clearly stated what proof of election is.

1 Thessalonians 1:4-10 (KJV) 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: 7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. 9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

StillGods said:

I think I will just go with if a person repents and believes in Jesus then they are saved.

if people want to be saved then Jesus will save them. well the Jesus I know will anyway.





I think I will forget about 'being elect" or not being a deciding factor, it complicates everything.

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I was probably a Christian for about 2 years before I even heard of election. My "coming to faith" was as simple as "God my life is messed up and I really need Your help!" Understanding came later.

A bruised reed He won't break and a smoking flax He won't put out. I worked with a developmentally disabled woman who had not the cognitive capacity to figure out any of this. Most doctrine was too complicated for her; but she certainly believed.

The profound stuff that would pop out of her mouth astounded me. I used to get them up for program in the morning and give them their meds. Part of our morning routine was to play stupid trivia games. I'd give them trivia questions to answer.

Well one day my trivia question was "What was Jesus's occupation." Well Elenor popped out with "He was the Savior. That's what his job was; Savior!" I stopped and looked at her and said: "Well that wasn't the answer I was expecting, or the one I was looking for; but you're right." She replied. "See I know! I know Him. I know who He is!" I had to laugh. I told her "Well, Elenor at this point I don't doubt that!"

So yes, understanding election is not necessary to be redeemed.

The Righterzpen said:

Jesus isn't your Savior and not your Lord - it doesn't work that way! LOL

I would consider Dispensationalism heretical also.

As well as "ins and outs" of particular historical theology of preachers, teachers and confessions, I'm not particularly very familiar with any of them. I know of them. I've read through some of them. I don't study them. I don't tend to read commentaries or theologian books for theological insight. (I find them interesting for informational / historical purposes.)

My theology comes from utilizing concordances, dictionaries, word study helps; but I don't necessary agree with all the dictionary definitions I've read either. Mostly I compare Scripture with Scripture. That's how I study the Bible. I have also found some use in researching Biblical history.

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i didn’t say that He is. I said that MacArthur’s Lordship Salvation is legalism. The Lord God always comes as a Conquerer before He comes as a Comforter.

The Righterzpen said:

How do you "not have the time" to look up Scripture? LOL

Get on Biblegateway.com and type in the word "repent". (It's not that hard.) Do you know what a concordance is. Do you use one?

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No need to get nasty. We can have a civil discussion if we don’t let our emotions get the best of us. We aren’t really that far apart.

Now as to your comments, I have a life outside of debating on public forums. Again I didn’t say I hadn’t time to look up passages I said that I didn’t have time to look up a huge list. Give me the passages that you think the strongest and I will answer.

Yes I have several concordances plus a few digital Bible programs. I use to use e-sword but now find BlueletterBible to be very useful.

Just so you know, I am not a novice. I was called of God to preach the free and sovereign grace of God in Christ Jesus the Lord alone over 30 years ago. I was taken to the school of sitting in the pew listening to another God called preacher, as Paul instructed Timothy to do, along with personal study for many years. I didn’t go to school to “become a preacher” I was sent of God. I never sought it.

So you see I didn’t just come to believe the truth I espouse but have spent countless hours studying them for myself.

StillGods said:

Another thought occurred to me. What if i wanted to be elect and did all the right things outwardly as well as inwardly really wanted to do what was right, could i become one if i wasnt? would God let me become an elect if i wasnt. would i be forever searching and wanting to fill the God shaped hole we all have but not be able to?

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This doesn't make sense, friend.

An elect is someone whom God singles out to become Christian. If you have come to Christ, truly resting in his grace alone, then you are an elect. If you have refused to come to Christ, by the stubbornness of your own heart, and remain so until death, then you would not have been the elect.

This is why in the epistle of Peter, he exhorts all of us to prove our election sure by our endurance and perseverance in the faith, striving to live in obedience (not to secure our salvation). The one who believes and follows Christ is the elect, and they have came to him by his sovereign pleasure and work in their lives.

twin1954 said:

No need to get nasty. We can have a civil discussion if we don’t let our emotions get the best of us. We aren’t really that far apart.

Now as to your comments, I have a life outside of debating on public forums. Again I didn’t say I hadn’t time to look up passages I said that I didn’t have time to look up a huge list. Give me the passages that you think the strongest and I will answer.

Yes I have several concordances plus a few digital Bible programs. I use to use e-sword but now find BlueletterBible to be very useful.

Just so you know, I am not a novice. I was called of God to preach the free and sovereign grace of God in Christ Jesus the Lord alone over 30 years ago. I was taken to the school of sitting in the pew listening to another God called preacher, as Paul instructed Timothy to do, along with personal study for many years. I didn’t go to school to “become a preacher” I was sent of God. I never sought it.

So you see I didn’t just come to believe the truth I espouse but have spent countless hours studying them for myself.

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So... why ask the question if you allegedly already know the answer? If you've been studying the Bible for 30 years, why would you ask me about verses concerning repentance? Would you not already know that? Repentance is one of the fundamental elements of coming to faith.

..

The Righterzpen said:

So... why ask the question if you allegedly already know the answer? If you've been studying the Bible for 30 years, why would you ask me about verses concerning repentance? Would you not already know that? Repentance is one of the fundamental elements of coming to faith.

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Because I wanted you to give me the verses you think best support your argument. I am not having a discussion with myself I am having one with you. If you don’t want to do the work to support your argument then don’t expect me to.

The Righterzpen said:

Define what you mean by "We have a new nature that can not sin." Are you saying that you don't sin? For if you say you have no sin, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. (1 John 1:8)

He that says I know Him and keeps not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4)

Sanctification is a process. Becoming holy (holier in this life) is a process. (Romans 6:18, Romans 12:1-2, Galatians 2:20, 1 Thessalonians 4:3, 2 Peter 3:18) All these verses talk about sanctification being a process that takes place as part of the natural course in this current life of a person who's been redeemed.

2 Timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Now sheep acting like sheep isn't exactly a compliment because "We all like sheep have gone astray." (Sheep aren't very smart and this is why they need to be herded.)

To say Jesus is my wisdom, my righteousness, my sanctification and my redemption, does not mean anything if there is no manifestation of that in your life.

"He was enough for the Father..... " Yet Jesus "learned obedience through the things that he suffered;"

Hebrews 5:
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet LEARNED he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Philippines 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and BECAME obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Because of his obedience Jesus obtained the right to reign. He could have made all sorts of claims, all sorts of truthful claims; but they didn't mean anything if he didn't rise from the dead. For if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain and you are yet in your sin. 1 Corinthians 15:17

Looking for evidence is not "tantamount to questioning the promises of God" because those promises only apply to those who are obedient. This is why Jesus said "If you love me, you'll keep my commandments." John 14:15

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I spent a great deal of time responding point by point to you but lost it due to CF messing up. I will again take the time later as I think this discussion worth it.

StillGods said:

there are people who go to church even cast out demons in His Name though so presumably if they're casting out demons they appear to be in the club so to speak, but when they die Jesus will say 'depart from me I never knew you'. so its not possible to know if you're elect til you die.
these people seem to be doing all the right things but they're not elect.

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I already gave you Paul’s reasons that the Thessalonians were elect, didn’t you read it? I will point them out for you:
1. The Gospel came to them in power, in the Holy Ghost and in much assurance.
2. They became flowers of the Apostles and the Lord.
3. They were examples to all that believe.
4. The word of the Lord sounded out from them.
5. They turned to God from idols.
6. They serve the living and true God.
7. They wait for His Sonfrom Heaven.

Those the Lord tells to depart from Him are workers of iniquity not believers. Satan is a Great Counterfeiter. He makes his minions seem to be ministers of righteousness.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (KJV) 13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

StillGods said:

there are no guarantees.
you can want to be saved be in church be doing all the right things, even be driving out demons in His Name helping others be delivered from bondage to the enemy but be turned away if you are not a 'chosen one'.
any of us may think we are saved but if we are not one of the elect we won't be.

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That is fatalism not truth. Whatever will be will be is leaving things up to the false god of fate. Truth knows that God is absolutely sovereign and has ordained the means of our faith in Christ through the preaching of the Gospel to bring salvation. God does not believe for us. It is our faith. He gives it as a gift of sovereign grace through the regenerating work of the Spirit. We believe because we have been born from above.

John 1:12-13 (KJV) 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

StillGods said:

there are people who go to church even cast out demons in His Name though so presumably if they're casting out demons they appear to be in the club so to speak, but when they die Jesus will say 'depart from me I never knew you'. so its not possible to know if you're elect til you die.
these people seem to be doing all the right things but they're not elect.

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In a certain sense (in one of your other posts) you're right we don't have to "worry" about are we elect or not? And you are also correct in that there are people who believe they are Christians who will be in for a rude awakening come judgement day.

And from a judicial standpoint, you are also correct that if one "isn't elect" they "won't be saved".

Keep in mind though that election was something that was determined from before the foundations of the world and this is why judicially speaking you can't "become elect" after the fact. All that has to do with decisions God made in eternity; which in that regard is not something you worrying about is going to affect. So you are correct in that sense too "not to worry about it". Do you understand what I'm saying in that regard?

We still want to know we are loved though!

I went through probably about 10 years also worried that maybe I wasn't elect. That stemmed from my own fear of being unlovable. Which stemmed from my own perception of myself based on my personal history.

Finally though, I came to the realization that though I certainly knew I was not better than anyone else; I also wasn't worse. Coming to that understanding "leveled the playing field" for me, in the sense that I could finally see that I had just as much "chance" of being elect as anyone else. And that's when I stopped worrying about it.

Today I know I am elect, primarily on account of I've persevered in the faith. My internal desire is to be obedient and I pray and repent to that end. Now granted this has been a 30 year plus process and I didn't come to these realizations over night.

I've also been through a lot of trials and see real, long term and lasting changes in myself, how I deal with life, how I interact with people and what no longer "sets me off". I'm more patient with myself, more trusting in God's process as my life unfolds and more resting in His care despite the trials. And I've faced some pretty steep hills. My life has not been easy, but God is still good and I still believe and trust.

So as time goes on and you look at yourself, wanting to see growth and the fruit of the Spirit, one day you will "wake up" (so to speak) and realize: Yeah, maybe I was elect all along. It's just one of those "oddities"; maybe in the way God works.

Don't know if that makes sense to you, but speaking as someone looking back on 30 odd years of Christian growth, that's been my experience. And as hard as it may be to hear the word "trust" when you're unsure. That's basically what it's about. So try not to fret too much about election. This is something you will likely gain more understanding of as you grow in grace, mature in faith and get to know the Bible better and better.

Peace to you!