Christian Perfectionism - Jesus said "Be perfect like My Father" - Can we be?

JAYPT · Feb 10, 2019

aiki said:
??? Please pay closer to attention to what 1 John 1:9 says.

1 John 1:10 clearly contrasts 1:9, that is what 1 John is a book of contrasts, he is saying that they should ask for forgivness instead of saying they have no sin in them.

JAYPT · Feb 10, 2019

aiki said:
I have looked at Paul's letters. Have you? He refers to the Corinthian believers as carnal and criticizes them for sexual sin, petty jealousies, litigiousness, abusing the Lord's Table and so on. They were, positionally, in Christ, saints but they were also guilty of much willful and gross sin. The Galatian church had problems, too, as did the Roman community of believers. In Christ, all genuine born-again believers are saints, but they don't all live like it.

I don't recall ever referring to Christians as "dirty worms"...

Yes I have and it says that Jesus died once for all and that we are forgiven (past tense) not progressively as we ask. If we are forgiven progressively, what happens when you forget one? The bible says that God doesnt wink at sin. What about the ones you dont remember?

JAYPT · Feb 10, 2019

aiki said:
I don't recall ever referring to Christians as "dirty worms"...

I meant as a "dirty worm" theology. It doesnt work and is not what the bible says.

JAYPT · Feb 10, 2019

aiki said:
And the application of that forgiveness to our sin, obtained for us by Christ at Calvary, is activated by our confession of our sin. Sort of like possessing a lawn mower and using it to cut the lawn every time it gets overgrown. The lawnmower's power to cut grass is always available to its owner, but is only actually put into effect when the owner uses the mower to do so. The same is true of the forgiveness we possess in Christ. It is ours by faith in Christ as Saviour but is only "put into effect" as we confess our sins. This is why 1 John 1:9 doesn't tell us to ask for forgiveness but only to confess our sins. We already have forgiveness in Christ, but it is applied to our sin only as we agree with God that our sin is truly sin.

So how can it be the finished work of Christ? Doesnt sound very finished to me.

JAYPT · Feb 10, 2019

By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:10 NASB
but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God ,
Hebrews 10:12 NASB
For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Romans 6:10 NASB
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Colossians 2:13 NASB

1stcenturylady · Feb 10, 2019

Oldmantook said:
τέλειος or teleios is the Greek word translated as "perfect." A better translation of the word is "mature." We are to become mature Christians; not perfect as in sinless Christians.

1 John 3:9

JAYPT · Feb 10, 2019

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Galatians 5:18 NASB
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Colossians 3:1 NASB

1stcenturylady · Feb 10, 2019

Ing Bee said:
Hi 1stcenturylady-

I don't think I'm a naysayer, but I would like to point out a few things from your OP that may hinder helpful answers:

You start off with two fallacies: "begging the question" and and "ad hominem"; you call someone a false teacher who disagrees with your belief which means you assume already that your interpretation is correct. Wouldn't it be better to first seek to establish on scriptural grounds whether "perfectionism" is taught?

It might be helpful to clearly articulate what you mean by perfectionism. In other words, sanctification is held by all Christians, the transforming of our character into the life of Christ. Is that what you mean? Or do you mean, instantaneous perfection? In your understanding, is perfection a secondary goal or the same as salvation?

John Piper helpfully stated once that biblical interpretation benefits from finding passages that oppose or seem to contradict the passages that support your point. Do you have any like that?

The word translated "perfect" often indicates maturity or completeness rather than moral perfection. Using multiple translations is helpful for spotting this (Biblehub is what I like to use). In many of the passages you sight above, this is the understanding (just hovering over the scripture chapter and verse will show you the NRSV I believe). For example the Eph. 4:11-16 passage renders "perfect man" "full grown man". This is also the sense when Jesus says to be mature in how we forgive, just like our father who forgives his enemies. "Be mature/complete [in forgiveness] just as your Father in Heaven". Notice too, in that passage in Matthew, Jesus is targeting a specific area: forgiveness. By the way, notice how often in your verses above that the word "complete" is paired with "perfect", the author uses the two words together to give a picture of wholeness a maturity. Looking at the greek on Biblehub or similar online tool is helpful.

Just looking at your list of passages, it is helpful to observe who is doing the perfecting and the ongoing tense of the verb. See for example Hebrews 10:14 where because of Jesus we HAVE BEEN perfected.

Also, by not understanding greek usages in context (e.g. maturity, wholeness, completion) or by forcing all usages to mean the same thing, you run into some issues: Was Jesus morally defective? Why then does he have to be made perfect according the author of Hebrews (2:10)? In the context, he has to suffer to be "complete" so as to be a sympathetic high priest.

Or another example: In Hebrews 6:1 we are called to move on to "perfection", that's better translated "maturity" as a majority of translations present it because in context, the author has just called his readers "big babies" who haven't moved on from the "milk" to "meat".

So, I guess my suggestion for growing in perfection is to first do some word studies with the greek text and multiple translations to get a better idea of what to actually shoot for.

Incidentally, the King James is one of the few translations that does use the word "perfect" where others use "mature" or "complete" and that makes sense because, though archaic now, that was how "perfect" was used when the KJV was translated. In grammar, the "perfect tense" denotes an action that has been completed.

For me it means consistently walking in the Spirit and never grieving Him.

1stcenturylady · Feb 10, 2019

JAYPT said:
1 John 1:10 clearly contrasts 1:9, that is what 1 John is a book of contrasts, he is saying that they should ask for forgivness instead of saying they have no sin in them.

Yes, they are contrasts of light and darkness. Verse 10 is not a Christian, nor is 6 and 8. 9 is how to BECOME a Christian, and 7 IS a Christian.

1stcenturylady · Feb 10, 2019

JAYPT said:
Also have a look at all the letters to the churches, Paul refers to them all as saints, not sinners. We are not dirty worms. We are the righteousness of Christ and heirs to the throne.

God made Lucifer to be perfect. But He also gave all the angels free will. Remember 2/3 of the angels didn't fall, even though they also had free will. They overcame that temptation, and never fell.

God made Adam and Eve to be perfect, but gave them free will. They fell, and we have inherited that fallen nature from them. There is a key to who will end up in heaven forever like 2/3 of the angels. He who OVERCOMES.

Look at the letters to the seven churches and what they all have in common:

Revelation 2:7 "To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”

Revelation 2:14 "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”

Revelation 2:17 "To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”

Revelation 2:26 "And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—"

Revelation 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

Revelation 3:12 "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name."

Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

Now at the end of the world here is what is left:

Revelation 22:11 "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

After separating the wheat from the chaff, only the overcomers will remain for all eternity in heaven. And for all eternity the fallen will be in hell. Which side will you chose with your free will to be on?

JAYPT · Feb 10, 2019

I am sorry if you feel that I am saying we are without sin, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that God calls us saints that sometimes sin. That we are as righteous, completely righteous. It is not positional. There is no scripture verse that says my salvation or your salvation is positional. Jesus' death, burial and resurrection was not positional. It was fact, it happened 2000 years ago and He lives today, not positionally but actually.

JAYPT · Feb 10, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Revelation 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

Revelation 3:12 "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name."

Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

Thats correct, Jesus overcame the world (He told us so) and because He overcame the world, through Him I have eternal life.

JAYPT · Feb 10, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
God made Adam and Eve to be perfect, but gave them free will. They fell, and we have inherited that fallen nature from them. There is a key to who will end up in heaven forever like 2/3 of the angels. He who OVERCOMES.

So are you saying my salvation comes through my work? Last I checked it was only by faith we are saved.

JAYPT · Feb 10, 2019

Anyways, good night y'all! It was a slice. Thanks for the great conversation! :wave:

SoldierOfTheKing · Feb 10, 2019

Strong's Concordance said:
5046. teleios tel'-i-os from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.

Unlike the Latin perfectus, this does not mean something that can't be improved upon; it means complete, as in a finished work. In Matt 5:48 it means to be completed in grace, with responses to that grace manifest.

1stcenturylady · Feb 10, 2019

JAYPT said:
So are you saying my salvation comes through my work? Last I checked it was only by faith we are saved.

You know that faith without works is dead. But is it our works or the work of the Spirit through us. It is all Spirit. I can do nothing good by myself.

UnprofitableServant · Feb 11, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
When false teachers don't take statements out of context, we see that all the apostles and Jesus Himself taught perfectionism. Even the unknown writer of Hebrews said "without holiness no man shall see God.

What advice can you give those who want to obey Jesus and be perfect, as their Father God is perfect?

No faithless nay sayers of "that's impossible" please. Only positive exhortation.

If you want to obey Jesus and be perfect, then the first thing you need to do is start obeying Jesus!

Don't over complicate things. Pick up your Bible and read what Jesus says, and if you see a command, then obey that command. It's as simple as that.

The question as to whether or not you will be perfect, can only be answered after you try to do it perfectly.

Be open to hearing more from God as you do this. He is faithful and true and will lead you if you become misguided along the way.

In peace

Oldmantook · Feb 11, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
1 John 3:9

It appears you rely on just one English version of the Bible which can easily lead to misinterpretation.
You cited 1 John 3:9 to support your belief however this verse does not mean what you think it means. The Greek verb tenses in this verse are in the present tense which indicate ongoing action or "sinning." In other words no one born of God goes on sinning/practices sin. The verse does not state that no one born of God does not sin at all. All Christians sin but not all Christians are in the habit of sinning.
ESV - No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

GingerBeer · Feb 11, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
When false teachers don't take statements out of context, we see that all the apostles and Jesus Himself taught perfectionism. Even the unknown writer of Hebrews said "without holiness no man shall see God.

Some take "without holiness no man shall see God" as a pointer to purgatory with all that is unholy about a man or woman is purged away. But if you are expecting perfection while still on Earth let us know how you do with that. It hard to think of anyone who is perfect that I know including myself.

aiki · Feb 11, 2019

JAYPT said:
So when Christ was on the cross bleeding out, did they come up to him and ask him if this was positional?

Why would they?

JAYPT said:
1 John 1:10 clearly contrasts 1:9, that is what 1 John is a book of contrasts, he is saying that they should ask for forgivness instead of saying they have no sin in them.

I'm aware of what John wrote.

You wrote:

"Please note and quote what 1 John 1:10 says when quoting 1:9. He is talking about sin deniers, not about getting your sins forgiven."

Whatever verse 10 says, in verse 9, John is most definitely talking about "getting your sins forgiven."

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

JAYPT said:
Yes I have and it says that Jesus died once for all and that we are forgiven (past tense) not progressively as we ask. If we are forgiven progressively, what happens when you forget one? The bible says that God doesnt wink at sin. What about the ones you dont remember?

Have I said that a Christian doesn't possess forgiveness? No. I've said exactly the reverse. But, like a box of band-aids one has bought from the drug store, if one doesn't apply the bandages in the box to one's wounds, the bandages won't protect the wounds. So, too, forgiveness. We are forgiven in Christ and clothed in his righteousness and thereby are accepted by God, but when we sin, as the apostle John wrote, we must confess that sin to God in order to obtain cleansing and restoration of our fellowship (not relationship, though) with God.

What happens when you "forget one"? Your unconfessed sin bars you from properly enjoying God. It doesn't mean your relationship to Him is lost, however. If you think you have sin standing between you and God, but can't remember what it is, follow the example of the Psalmist who wrote:

Psalms 19:12
12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

Psalms 139:23-24
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.

If you want to know if there is sin hindering your fellowship with God and what it is, simply pray and ask God to show it to you. He's always more than willing to bring to light your sin and cleanse you of it.

JAYPT said:
So how can it be the finished work of Christ? Doesnt sound very finished to me.

The work of Christ at Calvary is finished but his work in you is not.

We have a lovely new shower in our home. It works great! The installer did a fine job of putting in the shower. His work is finished and finished very well. But, you know, the shower only benefits us when we get into it, and turn on the water, and stand in its soothing, cleansing spray. Has the installer of the shower not finished his work because we have to take steps to benefit from his work? I don't see how this is a reasonable conclusion. The same goes for the forgiveness we have in Christ.

Christian Perfectionism - Jesus said "Be perfect like My Father" - Can we be?

Can we be perfect in this lifetime?

No, only Jesus was perfect. Jesus didn't mean what He said when he asked us to be.

Yes, it is possible, through the baptism of the Holy Spirit that makes us not want to sin.

We receive imputed righteousness, like an invisibility cloak over the sins that will always remain.

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