The Free Will of Pharaoh--- Exodus---Did he have a choice?

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I stopped at verse 10 because that is the bulk of the message. Your free to produce any scriptures you want to support your position and do I need to show the hundreds of times you post single verses when making your point?
It is what you leave out like this:

16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another. (John 15:16-17)

I sometimes post to you single or multiple verses to expand the context of what you and others post.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I’m not sure what question you are answering. It certainly isn’t mine.
I believe the statement affirms we all come alive when we hear the Gospel.

I responded by saying that means some become dead again.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,111
7,243
Dallas
✟873,878.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It is what you leave out like this:

16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another. (John 15:16-17)

I sometimes post to you single or multiple verses to expand the context of what you and others post.

Whats your point about these verses? Let me guess, you think Jesus is assuring them they will bear fruit and their fruit will remain? If that’s your point then again that wouldn’t fit the context of Jesus telling them to remain in Him. It wouldn’t make sense that He would tell them to remain in Him if they were incapable of failing to remain in Him.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,111
7,243
Dallas
✟873,878.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I believe chapter 3 is key. In that chapter God tells Moses Egypt was already judged.

I think everyone has been judged already because the book of life was written before creation. God already knows who will repent and who will not. Some believe that people can be blotted out of the book of life but I disagree with this idea. God would have no reason to edit the book of life because He has already known the outcome of everyone. If the book of life was written before creation then it was written according to His foreknowledge which would not change. Nothing surprises God.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,178
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,526.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I believe the statement affirms we all come alive when we hear the Gospel.

I responded by saying that means some become dead again.
Wow. Scripture never even comes close to saying that.

Thanks for the interpretation though. :)
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,178
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,526.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I think everyone has been judged already because the book of life was written before creation. God already knows who will repent and who will not. Some believe that people can be blotted out of the book of life but I disagree with this idea. God would have no reason to edit the book of life because He has already known the outcome of everyone. If the book of life was written before creation then it was written according to His foreknowledge which would not change. Nothing surprises God.
The problem with this thinking is that it means God had to acquire knowledge in order to put names in the book. It makes Him a spectator.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,111
7,243
Dallas
✟873,878.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The problem with this thinking is that it means God had to acquire knowledge in order to put names in the book. It makes Him a spectator.

I don’t see a problem with it if that is the way He intended it to be and I don’t think it makes Him a spectator as He could still coax people to repent.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,178
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,526.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I don’t see a problem with it if that is the way He intended it to be and I don’t think it makes Him a spectator as He could still coax people to repent.
I know you don’t see a problem. But it’s there. There’s no sovereignty in the choice. He just has to see who will believe and then put their name in.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,111
7,243
Dallas
✟873,878.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I know you don’t see a problem. But it’s there. There’s no sovereignty in the choice. He just has to see who will believe and then put their name in.

Why do you think God cannot still play a role in our salvation? Just because He foresaw it doesn’t mean He didn’t play any part in their repentance. He can also foresee what He would need to do in order to push people to repentance.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,178
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,526.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Why do you think God cannot still play a role in our salvation? Just because He foresaw it doesn’t mean He didn’t play any part in their repentance. He can also foresee what He would need to do in order to push people to repentance.
Our salvation is 100% dependent on Him.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Whats your point about these verses? Let me guess, you think Jesus is assuring them they will bear fruit and their fruit will remain? If that’s your point then again that wouldn’t fit the context of Jesus telling them to remain in Him. It wouldn’t make sense that He would tell them to remain in Him if they were incapable of failing to remain in Him.
He’s assuring His disciples that indeed they are disciples. For those who abide and endure to the end are His disciples.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The problem with this thinking is that it means God had to acquire knowledge in order to put names in the book. It makes Him a spectator.
Indeed makes God the second cause and not the first.
 
Upvote 0

FutureAndAHope

Just me
Supporter
Aug 30, 2008
6,362
2,910
Australia
Visit site
✟732,859.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Our disagreement is over the first cause. All secondary causes are the means God has chosen to effect His plan and purposes in salvation.
Thank you for the Scriptures, brother. May God be honored as we search His ways and marvel at His works.

I still reject your idea that God damns people without choice. As we see both Salvation, and Damnation is a result of choice.


Salvation -
John 14:21-24 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words.

Damnation -
2Th 2:10-12 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The point that Paul is making regarding Jacob, is that God chose Him contry to what man expects. Esau as the first born was expected, by virtue of his birth right, to inherit the blessing. Yet God chose to bless Jacob, by His choice, rather than by what man expects.

He makes the point, Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Pauls is comparing the law, to the story of Jaccob. It is not by effort, or birth right, our birth right is damnation, yet God chooses to show mercy.

He then goes on to talk about choices God has made. But we need not think that God would choose damnation, Paul clarifies his doctrine by stating:

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

The hardened vessels God has endured, with much patience. The idea of God enduring the vessels of destruction fits with the rest of scripture, where as you can see from the two verses above, God does involve mans choice in both salvation and damnation.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,111
7,243
Dallas
✟873,878.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Wow. Scripture never even comes close to saying that.

Thanks for the interpretation though. :)

“But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:13-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums