Debate-For MJ's Only The rapture - what happens, and when?

gadar perets

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You must listen to Hebrews 9:27 and obey it in your understanding. The latter does not negate the former. The wages of sin is death, the payment for sin is death. Do you get paid twice for the same sin? The second death pertains to judgment for an autumn tree (uprooted). The tree was already DEAD, it does not die again (Jude 1:12). You love using imagery or "clever visions" to explain foundational truths without establishing the truth. Therefore your house or tabernacle is built on sand. You must build your dwelling place on a solid rock. Yeshua explains this very simple truth in a parable concerning the fig tree that may be uprooted (John 13:6-8). Every tree that does not bear fruit must be cut down and thrown in the fire, second death or judgment ( Matthew 7:19).
Interesting. You used several posts to teach me that every man must die once and cannot die twice. Then, in the next post you cite Hebrews 11:5 and John 11:26 to teach some people will not even die once. To quote your own words that you do not even apply yourself, "You must listen to Hebrews 9:27 and obey it in your understanding." Why doesn't Hebrews 9:27 apply to Enoch? The fact is, Enoch died just like all other men. He most certainly did not go to heaven before Yeshua (John 3:13), nor did he receive the promises way back in Genesis (Hebrews 11:13). As for John 11:26, we are told in Scripture that many believers in Yeshua died. Did James die (Acts 12:2)? You must not study the Word superficially. Seek to harmonize all Scripture and not just pluck a verse out here or there that contradicts others.
 
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Mercy74

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Interesting. You used several posts to teach me that every man must die once and cannot die twice. Then, in the next post you cite Hebrews 11:5 and John 11:26 to teach some people will not even die once. To quote your own words that you do not even apply yourself, "You must listen to Hebrews 9:27 and obey it in your understanding." Why doesn't Hebrews 9:27 apply to Enoch? The fact is, Enoch died just like all other men. He most certainly did not go to heaven before Yeshua (John 3:13), nor did he receive the promises way back in Genesis (Hebrews 11:13). As for John 11:26, we are told in Scripture that many believers in Yeshua died. Did James die (Acts 12:2)? You must not study the Word superficially. Seek to harmonize all Scripture and not just pluck a verse out here or there that contradicts others.
I posted the verses, I did not teach you what they meant. I tried to teach you that they never die again if they believe in Yeshua. Enoch was not found, he did not experience death. The body of Moses or his grave was never found yet we know he is DEAD, he and Elijah can not die again! They will not receive judgment like the autumn trees, or like the empty clouds with no rain that were blown away. The pharisees wanted to kill Lazarus after his resurrection, yet only Judas received payment to betray Yeshua. You missed this point! The payment for sin is death! That is because Lazarus is already DEAD in Christ he can not die again! He was not like the autumn trees in Jude who were uprooted (second death). Lazarus was never uprooted out of the city. Stop trying to make me say something I never said.
 
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gadar perets

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I posted the verses, I did not teach you what they meant. I tried to teach you that they never die again if they believe in Yeshua.
You either tried to teach me or you didn't. Make up your mind. :scratch:

Enoch was not found, he did not experience death.
Then your belief contradicts Hebrews 9:27.
 
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Mercy74

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You either tried to teach me or you didn't. Make up your mind. :scratch:


Then your belief contradicts Hebrews 9:27.
I did not teach you at the time I only posted the scriptures. Enoch did not experience death; he pleased G-d, what does this mean? Enoch did not die twice, you failed to explain the meaning of those scriptures while using other scriptures. You must understand there is no contradiction in the scriptures. Angels carried Lazarus to Abraham's side, the rich man died he was buried ( Luke 16:22). Why was there no proper burial for Lazarus? Enoch was not found, he was never buried, Joseph wanted his bones buried away from Egypt in Canaan, Moses carried the bones of Joseph away from Egypt to be given a proper burial in Israel (Revelation 11:7-12). Yeshua was put to shame at his death when he was crucified, (1 Corinthians 15:55), Enoch was never put to shame, he never was given an honourable burial but it was said he pleased G-d! Enoch pleased G-d by faith.
 
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gadar perets

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I did not teach you at the time I only posted the scriptures. Enoch did not experience death; he pleased G-d, what does this mean? Enoch did not die twice, you failed to explain the meaning of those scriptures while using other scriptures. You must understand there is no contradiction in the scriptures. Angels carried Lazarus to Abraham's side, the rich man died he was buried ( Luke 16:22). Why was there no proper burial for Lazarus? Enoch was not found, he was never buried, Joseph wanted his bones buried away from Egypt in Canaan, Moses carried the bones of Joseph away from Egypt to be given a proper burial in Israel (Revelation 11:7-12). Yeshua was put to shame at his death when he was crucified, (1 Corinthians 15:55), Enoch was never put to shame, he never was given an honourable burial but it was said he pleased G-d! Enoch pleased G-d by faith.
Based on Hebrews 9:27 and Yeshua’s statement in John 3:13, “no man has ascended to heaven”, how are we to understand the account of Enoch?

Genesis 5:21-24 – Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah. Then Enoch walked with Elohim three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters. So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked with Elohim; and he was not, for Elohim took him.

These verses do not tell us much except that Enoch’s days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth as Eliyah was?

Consider Psalm 37:35,36 and Psalm 39:12,13;

“I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.”
“Hear my prayer, O Yahweh, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were. O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more.”

The Hebrew for the underlined phrases is the same Hebrew as Genesis 5:24; “And Enoch walked with Elohim: and he was not; for Elohim took him.” As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person “passed away” or would eventually die. Consider also Genesis 42:13 and Genesis 44:20;

“And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not.”

This was spoken of Joseph by his brothers. What did they mean by “is not”?

“And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loves him.”

Here the brothers recount their previous discussion about Joseph with Pharoah. When they first said, “and one is not,” they meant Joseph “is dead.” Finally, consider Matthew 2:18;

“In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.”

Where are Rachel’s children? Dead.

Hebrews 11:5 – By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Does the phrase “should not see death” mean Enoch never died? Let’s read the first three words of Hebrews 11:4,5,7,8,11 and 13; “By faith …”, “These all died” . Everyone mentioned in the previous verses died including Enoch. But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (vs. 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn’t he have received that promise? The fact is, Enoch is not in heaven but is dead in the grave awaiting his resurrection along with every other saint.

Psalm 89:47,48 – Remember how short my time is: why have you made all men in vain? What man is he that lives and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Why would the Psalmist ask such a question concerning physical death if he believed Enoch did not see a physical death? The fact is, the Psalmist believed Enoch was in the grave and therefore asked the question.

So what does the phrase “should not see death” mean? In Luke 2:25-29 we see that phrase to mean that Simeon would not die a physical death or what is known as “the first death.”
And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Spirit, that he should not see death, before he had seen YHWH’s Messiah.
Without any further Bible study we would be led to believe Enoch never died and is still alive in heaven. But let’s look at John 8:51.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Here the phrase “shall never see death” must mean “the second death” since all the Apostles, including Paul, kept Yeshua’s sayings and yet died the first death.
Now we must decide whether the phrase “should not see death”, as it applies to Enoch, means the first or second death. Based on Hebrews 9:27 and 11:13 we must conclude that he died the first death prematurely so that he should not see the second death.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Romans 5:12,14 says all men die because all have sinned. Are we to believe that Enoch did not sin or that the curse for sinning did not apply to him? Are we to believe that a man who was not yet cleansed of sin by the blood of Messiah could enter heaven and dwell in YHWH’s presence?

If Enoch did not die and was not taken to heaven, then where was he translated to and what does “translation” mean? According to Strong’s, Thayer’s and Bullinger’s Greek Lexicons, “translate” means “to put or place in another place, to transport, to transfer.” The same Greek word was used in Acts 7:16 where Jacob’s body was “translated” or “carried over” to Sychem to be buried. YHWH took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found just as he did with the body of Moses in Deuteronomy 34:6. Moses’ body was never found and neither was Enoch’s because YHWH hid them for reasons known only to Him.

I Corinthians 15:20-23 – But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Messiah shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are Messiah’s at his coming.
All die and all shall be resurrected, but Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly precede him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
To be able to dwell in heaven we must be changed from a flesh and blood natural body to a spiritual heavenly body. That change does not take place until the last trumpet.

In conclusion, let’s read John 3:13 again.

And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

That includes Enoch, Eliyah, and Lazarus.
 
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Mercy74

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Based on Hebrews 9:27 and Yeshua’s statement in John 3:13, “no man has ascended to heaven”, how are we to understand the account of Enoch?

Genesis 5:21-24 – Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah. Then Enoch walked with Elohim three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters. So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked with Elohim; and he was not, for Elohim took him.

These verses do not tell us much except that Enoch’s days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth as Eliyah was?

Consider Psalm 37:35,36 and Psalm 39:12,13;

“I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.”
“Hear my prayer, O Yahweh, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were. O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more.”

The Hebrew for the underlined phrases is the same Hebrew as Genesis 5:24; “And Enoch walked with Elohim: and he was not; for Elohim took him.” As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person “passed away” or would eventually die. Consider also Genesis 42:13 and Genesis 44:20;

“And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not.”

This was spoken of Joseph by his brothers. What did they mean by “is not”?

“And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loves him.”

Here the brothers recount their previous discussion about Joseph with Pharoah. When they first said, “and one is not,” they meant Joseph “is dead.” Finally, consider Matthew 2:18;

“In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.”

Where are Rachel’s children? Dead.

Hebrews 11:5 – By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Does the phrase “should not see death” mean Enoch never died? Let’s read the first three words of Hebrews 11:4,5,7,8,11 and 13; “By faith …”, “These all died” . Everyone mentioned in the previous verses died including Enoch. But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (vs. 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn’t he have received that promise? The fact is, Enoch is not in heaven but is dead in the grave awaiting his resurrection along with every other saint.

Psalm 89:47,48 – Remember how short my time is: why have you made all men in vain? What man is he that lives and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Why would the Psalmist ask such a question concerning physical death if he believed Enoch did not see a physical death? The fact is, the Psalmist believed Enoch was in the grave and therefore asked the question.

So what does the phrase “should not see death” mean? In Luke 2:25-29 we see that phrase to mean that Simeon would not die a physical death or what is known as “the first death.”
And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Spirit, that he should not see death, before he had seen YHWH’s Messiah.
Without any further Bible study we would be led to believe Enoch never died and is still alive in heaven. But let’s look at John 8:51.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Here the phrase “shall never see death” must mean “the second death” since all the Apostles, including Paul, kept Yeshua’s sayings and yet died the first death.
Now we must decide whether the phrase “should not see death”, as it applies to Enoch, means the first or second death. Based on Hebrews 9:27 and 11:13 we must conclude that he died the first death prematurely so that he should not see the second death.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Romans 5:12,14 says all men die because all have sinned. Are we to believe that Enoch did not sin or that the curse for sinning did not apply to him? Are we to believe that a man who was not yet cleansed of sin by the blood of Messiah could enter heaven and dwell in YHWH’s presence?

If Enoch did not die and was not taken to heaven, then where was he translated to and what does “translation” mean? According to Strong’s, Thayer’s and Bullinger’s Greek Lexicons, “translate” means “to put or place in another place, to transport, to transfer.” The same Greek word was used in Acts 7:16 where Jacob’s body was “translated” or “carried over” to Sychem to be buried. YHWH took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found just as he did with the body of Moses in Deuteronomy 34:6. Moses’ body was never found and neither was Enoch’s because YHWH hid them for reasons known only to Him.

I Corinthians 15:20-23 – But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Messiah shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are Messiah’s at his coming.
All die and all shall be resurrected, but Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly precede him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
To be able to dwell in heaven we must be changed from a flesh and blood natural body to a spiritual heavenly body. That change does not take place until the last trumpet.

In conclusion, let’s read John 3:13 again.

And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

That includes Enoch, Eliyah, and Lazarus.
You posted alot of scripture just to prove what Hebrews 9:27 already said, all men die once. Yet your question dealt with multiple deaths which none of your scriptures mentioned. I hope we can agree that all men die once then the judgment. Enoch was taken up to heaven as the scriptures declare (Hebrews 11:5), no need to disannul the scriptures to make your point. The body of Enoch (like Moses, Elijah) was never found, therefore no grave! It is not necessary for you to fill in what you do not understand, you seem to always insert your assertions where you feel the Bible is silent. Please read Ephesians 4:9 to help you understand John 3:13. Yeshua was required to descend from heaven first, prior to his return or ascension to heaven; he was already exalted to the highest place in heaven. Yeshua had to humble himself to a servant so that the Father could exalt him back to his origin. Every man must return to his origin (the ground) before any man can be exalted to a higher place, like Adam before he fell asleep in the garden.
 
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gadar perets

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I hope we can agree that all men die once then the judgment.
That would be impossible as long as you believe Enoch did not die once.

Enoch was taken up to heaven as the scriptures declare (Hebrews 11:5), no need to disannul the scriptures to make your point.
I did not disannul anything. The Apostle John disannuled your interpretation when he wrote John 3:13. If you disagree with him, then tell us why he is wrong.

The body of Enoch (like Moses, Elijah) was never found, therefore no grave!
No grave needs to be mentioned to know a person died.

Please read Ephesians 4:9 to help you understand John 3:13. Yeshua was required to descend from heaven first, prior to his return or ascension to heaven; he was already exalted to the highest place in heaven. Yeshua had to humble himself to a servant so that the Father could exalt him back to his origin. Every man must return to his origin (the ground) before any man can be exalted to a higher place, like Adam before he fell asleep in the garden.
That is not what John 3:13 means. It is talking about men besides Yeshua ascending to heaven.
 
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Mercy74

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That would be impossible as long as you believe Enoch did not die once.


I did not disannul anything. The Apostle John disannuled your interpretation when he wrote John 3:13. If you disagree with him, then tell us why he is wrong.


No grave needs to be mentioned to know a person died.


That is not what John 3:13 means. It is talking about men besides Yeshua ascending to heaven.
I uphold Hebrews 9:27, all men die once, then the judgment. Enoch did not experience the second death. John 3:13 says what it says, Ephesians 4:9 support what it says. You have failed to explain what John 3:13 says, the Son of man who came down from heaven, ascended to heaven who is also in heaven. Ephesians 4:9 explains again what John 3:13 already says. Do you understand that Yeshua descended before he ascended? The body should have a final dwelling or resting place, Joseph wanted his bones out of Egypt. Lazarus a beggar was never buried. The saints after the graves were opened went into the city. Notice how all the saints had graves during the earthquake? They were all given proper burial. A grave or tomb proves the resurrection of the body (Acts 2:29). David did not ascend into heaven, he was given a proper burial (Acts 2:34-36). I guess you do not understand the significance or importance the graves play concerning the resurrection and subsequent entrance into the city to be united with those that were alive in Christ (l Thessalonians 4:17)
 
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gadar perets

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I uphold Hebrews 9:27, all men die once, then the judgment. Enoch did not experience the second death.
Did Enoch experience the first death? If so, then we agree. If not, then you are not upholding Hebrews 9:27.

Do you understand that Yeshua descended before he ascended?
Yes, but probably not in the sense you do. I understand it to mean he descended into hades (the abode of the dead, the grave, the heart of the earth) after his death.

I guess you do not understand the significance or importance the graves play concerning the resurrection and subsequent entrance into the city to be united with those that were alive in Christ (l Thessalonians 4:17)
You make a major blunder in believing 1 Thessalonians 4:17 has anything to do with saints that were alive in Christ shortly after his resurrection. Verse 17 is preceded by verse 16 in which Yeshua descends from heaven with the sound of the last trumpet. When did that happen?
 
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Mercy74

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Did Enoch experience the first death? If so, then we agree. If not, then you are not upholding Hebrews 9:27.


Yes, but probably not in the sense you do. I understand it to mean he descended into hades (the abode of the dead, the grave, the heart of the earth) after his death.


You make a major blunder in believing 1 Thessalonians 4:17 has anything to do with saints that were alive in Christ shortly after his resurrection. Verse 17 is preceded by verse 16 in which Yeshua descends from heaven with the sound of the last trumpet. When did that happen?
I have stated that all men die once, that would include Enoch. Then I explicitly stated that Enoch did not experience the second death. I provided many scripture that you ignored, have you forgotten the topic of this discussion is the rapture (1Thessalonians 4:17)? The saints were united with the people in the city. He descended as the scriptures declare, before his ascension, he descended from his origin, heaven. I wish you accept the scriptures as written. Those two witnesses that were refused burial ascended to heaven, they were left dead in the street yet you minimize the significance of proper burial or graves. The writers would not have continually mentioned these things if they were not important.
 
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gadar perets

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I have stated that all men die once, that would include Enoch. Then I explicitly stated that Enoch did not experience the second death.
That is exactly what I wrote in post #145;

Here the phrase “shall never see death” must mean “the second death” since all the Apostles, including Paul, kept Yeshua’s sayings and yet died the first death. Now we must decide whether the phrase “should not see death”, as it applies to Enoch, means the first or second death. Based on Hebrews 9:27 and 11:13 we must conclude that he died the first death prematurely so that he should not see the second death.
Then, in your reply you said Enoch went to heaven (contrary to John 3:13). No one could preceded Yeshua into heaven. According to Colossians 1:18, Yeshua had to have the preeminence in all things, including being the first born from the dead unto eternal life and being the first to enter heaven.

I provided many scripture that you ignored, have you forgotten the topic of this discussion is the rapture (1Thessalonians 4:17)?
I did not ignore anything. I addressed your misapplication of that verse in post #149. Please read my posts more thoroughly.

The saints were united with the people in the city.
I agree.

He descended as the scriptures declare, before his ascension, he descended from his origin, heaven. I wish you accept the scriptures as written.
It does not say he descended from heaven in Ephesians 4:9. You are reading that into the text. Many commentators believe he descended from being alive on earth into hades/the grave.

Those two witnesses that were refused burial ascended to heaven, they were left dead in the street yet you minimize the significance of proper burial or graves. The writers would not have continually mentioned these things if they were not important.
Where did I minimize that? I didn't. However, your words here seem to show that burial is not important since unburied people will be resurrected unto eternal life as well just as the two witnesses were.
 
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Mercy74

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That is exactly what I wrote in post #145;

Here the phrase “shall never see death” must mean “the second death” since all the Apostles, including Paul, kept Yeshua’s sayings and yet died the first death. Now we must decide whether the phrase “should not see death”, as it applies to Enoch, means the first or second death. Based on Hebrews 9:27 and 11:13 we must conclude that he died the first death prematurely so that he should not see the second death.
Then, in your reply you said Enoch went to heaven (contrary to John 3:13). No one could preceded Yeshua into heaven. According to Colossians 1:18, Yeshua had to have the preeminence in all things, including being the first born from the dead unto eternal life and being the first to enter heaven.


I did not ignore anything. I addressed your misapplication of that verse in post #149. Please read my posts more thoroughly.


I agree.


It does not say he descended from heaven in Ephesians 4:9. You are reading that into the text. Many commentators believe he descended from being alive on earth into hades/the grave.


Where did I minimize that? I didn't. However, your words here seem to show that burial is not important since unburied people will be resurrected unto eternal life as well just as the two witnesses were.
Here we go again, with the willful avoidance. I never said that Ephesians 4:9 said that he descended from heaven but John 3:13 and John 6:33 does. It is like you saying that this verse doesn't say "heaven" when you are already aware that another text does, while never providing an explanation for either verse. You make a moot point! Either you argument basis: something is not explicitly written down or a comentators viewpoint? Stop moving the goal post every time i kick a field goal; hence you always miss my points. Yeshua came down from heaven, do you wish to argue what is plainly written in scripture? Elijah was taken up to heaven (2 Kings 2:11) Hebrews 11:5 (CEV) it is explicitly written that Enoch was taken up to heaven, then your defense: you say that I said it. No it is plainly written that Enoch went to heaven. There is no contradiction written down in scripture, your understanding is not cogent.
 
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Mercy74

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That is exactly what I wrote in post #145;

Here the phrase “shall never see death” must mean “the second death” since all the Apostles, including Paul, kept Yeshua’s sayings and yet died the first death. Now we must decide whether the phrase “should not see death”, as it applies to Enoch, means the first or second death. Based on Hebrews 9:27 and 11:13 we must conclude that he died the first death prematurely so that he should not see the second death.
Then, in your reply you said Enoch went to heaven (contrary to John 3:13). No one could preceded Yeshua into heaven. According to Colossians 1:18, Yeshua had to have the preeminence in all things, including being the first born from the dead unto eternal life and being the first to enter heaven.


I did not ignore anything. I addressed your misapplication of that verse in post #149. Please read my posts more thoroughly.


I agree.


It does not say he descended from heaven in Ephesians 4:9. You are reading that into the text. Many commentators believe he descended from being alive on earth into hades/the grave.


Where did I minimize that? I didn't. However, your words here seem to show that burial is not important since unburied people will be resurrected unto eternal life as well just as the two witnesses were.
Here we go again, with the willful avoidance. I never said that Ephesians 4:9 said that he descended from heaven but John 3:13 and John 6:33 does. It is like you saying that this verse doesn't say "heaven" when you are already aware that another text does, while never providing an explanation for either verse. You make a moot point! Either your argument basis: something is not explicitly written down or a comentators viewpoint? Stop moving the goal post every time i kick a field goal; hence you always miss my points. Yeshua came down from heaven, do you wish to argue what is plainly written in scripture? Your understanding is not cogent.
 
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gadar perets

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Here we go again, with the willful avoidance. I never said that Ephesians 4:9 said that he descended from heaven but John 3:13 and John 6:33 does.
Here are your exact words;

John 3:13 says what it says, Ephesians 4:9 support what it says. You have failed to explain what John 3:13 says, the Son of man who came down from heaven, ascended to heaven who is also in heaven. Ephesians 4:9 explains again what John 3:13 already says.

Therefore, you are saying Ephesians 4:9 says he came down from heaven.

Yeshua came down from heaven, do you wish to argue what is plainly written in scripture? Elijah was taken up to heaven (2 Kings 2:11) Hebrews 11:5 (CEV) it is explicitly written that Enoch was taken up to heaven, then your defense: you say that I said it. No it is plainly written that Enoch went to heaven. There is no contradiction written down in scripture, your understanding is not cogent.
There is no verse in the entire Bible that says Enoch went to heaven when correctly translated. Please quote it. I know the CEV says it, but they added the words "up to heaven". Those words are not found in any Greek text.
 
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Mercy74

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Here are your exact words;

John 3:13 says what it says, Ephesians 4:9 support what it says. You have failed to explain what John 3:13 says, the Son of man who came down from heaven, ascended to heaven who is also in heaven. Ephesians 4:9 explains again what John 3:13 already says.

Therefore, you are saying Ephesians 4:9 says he came down from heaven.


There is no verse in the entire Bible that says Enoch went to heaven when correctly translated. Please quote it. I know the CEV says it, but they added the words "up to heaven". Those words are not found in any Greek text.
So let me guess, you can now correctly translate scriptures? Of course the CEV is not a translation but a version like the KJV. I hope you know the difference? A version says the same thing several different ways. What about 2 Kings 2:11? Translation deals with languages, but versions are the same language. Consequently your Greek text argument is very weak and carries no weight with regard to the CEV.
 
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gadar perets

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So let me guess, you can now correctly translate scriptures? Of course the CEV is not a translation but a version like the KJV. I hope you know the difference? A version says the same thing several different ways.
I can't believe you will continue to defend a bogus rendering of Hebrews 11:5. :scratch: If the Greek text does NOT contain the word οὐρανός (ouranos) or some form of that word, then NO version has a right to put "heaven" in the English text. That just causes people like you to totally misunderstand what happened to Enoch.

What about 2 Kings 2:11?
2 Kings 2:1,11 - And it came about when YHWH was about to take up Eliyah by a whirlwind to heaven, that Eliyah went with Elisha from Gilgal…As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Eliyah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.​

If John 3:13 says, “no man has ascended to heaven,” then what heaven are these scriptures talking about? The Bible mentions three heavens. The first heaven is Earth’s atmosphere where birds fly (Genesis 1:20); The second heaven is outer space where the planets and stars exist (Genesis 1:16,17); The third heaven is what the Apostle Paul calls “paradise” in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4. It is where YHWH and the heavenly sanctuary exist.
Eliyah was caught up to the first heaven where birds fly and was transported to another location on Earth. Notice vss. 15 & 16;

Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho opposite him saw him, they said, “The spirit of Eliyah rests on Elisha.” And they came to meet him and bowed themselves to the ground before him. They said to him, “Behold now, there are with your servants fifty strong men, please let them go and search for your master; perhaps the Spirit of YHWH has taken him up and cast him on some mountain or into some valley.” And he said, “You shall not send.”

The sons of the prophets, who knew Eliyah would be taken away (vss. 3,5), believed that Eliyah was taken to another location. They didn’t think he went to the third heaven.

A similar incident to Eliyah’s took place in Acts 8:39,40;

When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea.
Phillip was caught up into the first heaven, as Eliyah was, and was transported to another location approximately 30 miles away. Eliyah may not have been found because he was transported farther away than the fifty men searched (vs. 17).

Proof that Eliyah did not die, but was transported, is found in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.

Then a letter came to him from Eliyah the prophet saying, “Thus says YHWH Elohim of your father David, ‘Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father and the ways of Asa king of Judah, but have walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and have caused Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to play the harlot as the house of Ahab played the harlot, and you have also killed your brothers, your own family, who were better than you, behold, YHWH is going to strike your people, your sons, your wives and all your possessions with a great calamity; and you will suffer severe sickness, a disease of your bowels, until your bowels come out because of the sickness, day by day.'”
From the wording of this letter it is clear that Eliyah wrote it after the events occurred for he speaks of them as past events, and of the disease as a future event. This letter was written by Eliyah more than four years after he was taken up to the first heaven. The Bible does not reveal how much longer Eliyah lived after writing the letter but it does say in Hebrews 9:27 that it is appointed unto men to die once.
 
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chunkofcoal

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Ever study "slept" "asleep" in scripture? Yeshua did state Lazarus was asleep. I am not going to argue with Him. He also said that in the end, He will resurrect us. Yes, nothing about death or dying has changed before during or after Yeshua. As Revelation says, it is the last thing to go in the lake of fire.
So this has been bothering me. If "asleep" is the same as "dead", and nothing about death or dying changed because of Yeshua, then what did He mean when He said this?
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
 
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visionary

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So this has been bothering me. If "asleep" is the same as "dead", and nothing about death or dying changed because of Yeshua, then what did He mean when He said this?
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
I have always thought of that saying as a promise that if you are as good as Enoch, you will have the same privilege as Enoch.
 
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Mercy74

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So this has been bothering me. If "asleep" is the same as "dead", and nothing about death or dying changed because of Yeshua, then what did He mean when He said this?
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
It means you shall not die again. You shall never be uprooted. You have to be alive to have taste or to taste something. Your eyes must be open in order to see, can a man that is sleep see anything? What can you see with your eyes closed at death? What does death taste like?
 
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AbbaLove

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So this has been bothering me. If "asleep" is the same as "dead", and nothing about death or dying changed because of Yeshua, then what did He mean when He said this?
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Possibly John is referring to what some commentaries refer to as the 'first' death, but if there is a 1st death than theological logic contends that there is a second death. The implication is that the first death is temporary (like sleep); whereas, the second death is eternal. Thus, the first death is like being 'asleep' from which one can awaken to a new life, but the second death is eternal separation from GOD.

John's reference is undoubtedly with consideration to Yeshua's resurrection from death to again experiencing the breath of life. Thus one might say Yeshua was "asleep". From that perspective scripture uses "asleep" when usually referring to saints and God fearing men and women.

Matthew 27:52 (these saints may refer to: "with them in the clouds" in 1 Thess. 4:17)
The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
Mark 5:39 (again indicating that 'sleep' in as allegory for the first death)
He went inside and asked, "Why all this commotion and weeping? The child is not dead, but asleep.
John 11:11 (Most likely a God-fearing man that trusted and loved Yeshua as a best friend)
After He had said this, He told them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to wake him up.
John 11:13 (sleep used here to imply Yeshua wouldn't experience a second death)
Howbeit Jesus spake of His death: but they thought that He had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Acts 7:60 (referring to Stephen who was filled with the Holy Spirit as he was being stoned)
Falling on his knees, he cried out in a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:52 (these that died (are"asleep") will not experience the second death)
in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 (those saints that are alive will proceed those saints that are "asleep")
so that He may establish your hearts in blamelessness and holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. Amen.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (these saints do not experience the first death referred to as "sleep")
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Considering different translations of this preceding verse doesn't make it clear if "them" are caught up together (simultaneously in the twinkling of the eye) in the clouds or if "them" are already in the clouds having preceded those that are alive. Do you think the following verses refer to this verse?
______________________​
Matthew 19:30
But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.
Matthew 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Mark 10:31
But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.
Luke 13:30
And indeed, some who are last will be first, and some who are first will be last.

In general Christianity considers that these three preceding verses as a reference to John 10:16 ...

And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to My voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

On the other hand the above Words of Yeshua (three preceding verses) could refer to those Jewish Believers that are grafted back into the cultivated Olive Tree after the Age of the Gentiles as being the last laborers of the vineyard "who shall be first" and the non-Jewish laborers of the Father's Vineyard since the 1st Century "will be last."
 
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