I'm a literalist in that I believe Genesis is literally a true account of creation and the Bible is the Holy word of God. But being a literalist don't make me dull to all the figurative speech in the Bible which is there to capture a deeper spiritual meaning. None of the ancient Christians read the Bible as literally as flat earthers. In fact, 2000 years of Theology proves that absolute literalism is not how the Bible is to be read and understod.
Genesis 1 what? The Whole chapter? I suppose with such a vague reference I'll have to see what ancient witnesses said about Genesis 1.
Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D.)
Josephus was a Jewish historian who wrote the Antiquity of the Jews in 70 A.D. Lets see how a Jewish historian understands Genesis.
“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).
Josephus is describing how God, on the second day, placed a crystalline around the earth. This earth, not being held up by turtles or elephants or a whale, is determined by God to stand by itself (Job 26:7). You cannot place a firmament around the whole earth if the earth is flat or even a half-sphere
St.Augustine (354-430 A.D.)
It is very clear that Augustine believed in a spherical earth. The following citations are taken from Augustine’s book The Literal Meaning of Genesis, Vol.1. (Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.41).
“But if the light first created enveloped the earth on all sides, whether it was motionless or travelling round, it could not be followed anywhere by night, because it did not vacate any place to make room for night. But was it made on one side, so that as it travelled it would permit the night to follow after from the other? Although water still covered all the earth, there was nothing to prevent the massive watery sphere from having day on one side by the presence of light, and on the other side, night by the absence of light. Thus, in the evening, darkness would pass to that side from which light would be turning to the other” (p.33).
Here Augustine is speaking about the light God created. He speaks with confidence concerning his own knowledge of the shape of the earth. He sees an earth that is spherical and rotating. He may not of had all the knowledge he would have wanted to know, but the shape of the earth is spoken with confidence.
These two passages have nothing to do with the shape of the earth. But maybe we can discuss these later. Right now a good opening argument would be to supply verses that prove the earth is flat.
Psalm 19 is very deeply figurative as all Psalms are. However, figurative does not mean false or that it lacks literal knowledge. The Psalm is literally about how the Gospel will be spread throughout the whole earth. I'm willing to discuss this Psalm in greater depth but right now establishing verses that speak about the shape of the earth is our starting point for discussion. Psalm 19:1, 2, 3, 5, 6 do not speak about the earth's shape. Psalm 19:4 does. So lets examine Psalm 19:4:
"Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun" (KJV).
This same verse translated in the Latin Vulgate reads:
"in omnem terram exivit sonus eorum et in fines orbis terrae verba eorum."
Word: Orbis, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl
English Definition of Orb
Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
Notice how in our English vocabulary the word "orb" is listed as "obsolete" to use for sphere or globe. What this means is simply that as the English language changes people prefer the use of globe & sphere over using orb. Though the word orb used to enjoy the common usage with sphere & globe before becoming obsolete.
Latin Definition of Orb
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...f5HJXj9a74cmin93nl9lA2CDlmJpPBV_WeZZ5V3L_oLzQ
It means world globe in Latin.
But what does H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl mean in Hebrew? Lets examine four Hebrew lexicons that don't always agree with each other.
Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,
The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398
"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].
The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."
Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
View attachment 251036
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.
TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.
"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).
Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).
Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).
In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".
New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:
"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).
OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).
Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."
Summary of Hebrew Lexicons on H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl,
Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"
Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"
TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <--AND -->
"In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."
New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."
So it is very clear that Psalm 19:4 mentions the habitable globe.
"Their line went forth into all the earth, and their words into the ends of the habitable globe. In them he set a tent for the sun" (H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl - 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).
The Julia E Smith Bible may not be the overall most accurate English translation and I would not place this translation above the renderings of William Tyndale. However, in this particular verse the Julia E. Smith Bible ranks as the best rendering of Psalm 19:4 as both the Hebrew & Latin very strongly agree.
This verse says nothing about the shape of the earth. Though St.Augustine compared verses like this to an inflatable ball.
This has nothing to do with the shape of the earth.
This does not mention the shape of the earth either.
This verse doesn't mention the shape of the earth either.
Isaiah mentions the shape of the earth in a few verses as listed here:
Isaiah 18:3
English: "Yea, al ye that syt in the compasse of the worlde, and dwell vpon the earthe, when the token shalbe geuen vpon the mountaynes, then loke vp: & when the horne bloweth, then herken to" (Strong's H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).
Latin Vulgate: "omnes habitatores orbis qui moramini in terra cum elevatum fuerit signum in montibus videbitis et clangorem tubae audietis"
Word: Orbis, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl
Latin Definition of Orbis
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...Rn3F1-g7azZKizEQsvg8d85mGEINL9TEwsL0KiBXvJL40
For Hebrew definition of H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl see lexicons above.
Isaiah 34:1
English: "Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde compasse & all that groweth there vpon" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).
Latin Vulgate: "accedite gentes et audite et populi adtendite audiat terra et plenitudo eius orbis et omne germen eius"
Word: Orbis, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl
Isaiah 40:22
"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (KJV).
"It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Strong's H2329: חוּג chûwg, -- Douay Rheims Bible).
Latin Vulgate: "qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum"
Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329: חוּג chûwg
Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...jSifnO1sSjAbZSpXJnzSHMkwH9QryckK0jJzFhZ5Nai58
The word
circle in Isaiah 40:22 has always been understood to mean globus, orbis, as the old fashioned use of
circle had been used to describe the 3D roundness of the earth. Though in our modern English of the 21st century the word
circle is associated with a 2D flat circle, the old English usage applied circle as applicable to a globe. This also means the word
circle in 21st century English, as commonly applied to Isaiah 40:22, is obsolete in usage, and therefore the word
circle is no longer an accurate rendering of H2329 חוּג chûwg.
The oldest quotation of this verse I have found from the early church fathers comes from 4th century St.Ambrose who quoted this shortly before St.Jerome translated the Vulgate. Ambrose starts off my saying Scripture points out and then quotes from Isaiah 40:22,
"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).
Hebrew Lexicons for H2328 & H2329, חוּג Chuwg
The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,
H2328. חוּג Chuwg, kloog; a prim. root [comp.2287]; to describe a circle:--compass [1x]."
H2329. חוּג Chuwg, khoog; from 2328; a circle:--circle [1x], circuit [1x], compass [1x]."
Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329:
"חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."
View attachment 251037
Chuwg: circle, circuit, compass, sphere.
This does not mention the shape of the earth nor does it mean flat earth. The Devil took Jesus and showed him the kingdoms of the world. This neither applies to a flat or round earth. The verse is also not in context with the human perspective but from the perspective of Satan & Jesus.
The moon will not give off her light because the sun will be darkened. This verse has nothing to do with the shape of the earth. But since flat earthers accept the Pseudepigrapha book of Enoch as Canonical, here's one for ya:
“Then Uriel showed me another order (concerning) when light is beamed into the moon, from which (direction) of the bright sun it is beamed. During all the seasons when the moon is made to run its cycle, the light is being beamed into it (the moon) facing the sun until the illumination (of the moon) is complete in the course of fourteen days; and when it is lit completely, it radiates light in the sky” (Enoch 78:10-11).
This has nothing to do with the shape of the earth and, like Matthew 24:29, is most likely figurative to capture a much more deeper spiritual event.
This verse mentions celestial bodies. But does that make it a flat earth verse? No.
Origen -- On Spheres Of The Planets.
There are countless references of spheres from our 3rd century church father, Origen (185-254 A.D.). It must be carefully noted that Origen was an important Church father who's contributions to the early church included the very first book on Theology ever written by a Christian. This first ever book on Biblical Theology is called "On First Principles." The following quotation is taken from the John C. Cavadini edition.
". . . . and the entire condition of the world we know, in which the spheres of the planets are said to be, is left behind and superseded, there exists above that sphere which is called "fixed" an abiding place for the pious and blessed, in as it were a "good land" and a "land of the living," which the "meek" and gentle will receive for an inheritance. To this land or earth belongs that heaven which, with its more magnificent circuit, surrounds and confines it, and this is the true heaven and the first to be so called" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.114).
View attachment 251039