.

You are correct. It's about valuing your relationship. My wife is an intelligent woman and I would never want her to adopt a Stepford wife attitude in order to stroke my ego. We work as a team, an equal partnership. Some things I can do better than her, and some things she can do better than me, but there is no keeping score. It would be totally untrue to say that she depends on me more than I depend on her. There is trust and appreciation for the things we do for one another in our relationship.
I think the belief that the man is the head of the household, placing the woman in the position of second fiddle is outdated and disrespectful. It simply devalues women in my opinion.

Paidiske said:

It's common advice to intelligent women, to hide our intelligence so that our men won't feel challenged. Same sort of category of advice, it seems to me, as this stuff about becoming submissive so he won't feel threatened.

A real man won't be threatened by my intelligence, my strength, or my courage. He'll appreciate that those are good qualities in a life partner. I don't want a man who wants me to be less than I could be for the sake of his ego.

And that's the danger of comments like Miranda's, especially when they're snippets taken out of the context of a loving relationship; they end up becoming advice to women to be less, be smaller, be quieter. Hide your talents in the ground. Not healthy.

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Nor is it a good thing to be lifted up with pride in thinking higher of oneself than one ought. Man was first created by God, then woman; but both were created in subjection. Humbleness of mind and meekness is a virtue shared amongst both genders of Christians. If both husband and wife are walking spiritually, all will be in order: the wife won’t need to hide a thing, nor will the husband. The wife won’t need to be smaller, nor the husband bigger.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

Nor is it a good thing to be lifted up with pride in thinking higher of oneself than one ought. Man was first created by God, then woman; but both were created in subjection. Humbleness of mind and meekness is a virtue shared amongst both genders of Christians. If both husband and wife are walking spiritually, all will be in order: the wife won’t need to hide a thing, nor will the husband. The wife won’t need to be smaller, nor the husband bigger.

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Precisely. No hierarchy, but walking humbly together through life.

Paidiske said:

Precisely. No hierarchy, but walking humbly together through life.

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Oh there’s definitely hierarchy. Scripture is clear that submission is a spiritual practice. If the wife is walking spiritually, the wife will be in subjection to the husband. The husband will love his wife as Christ loves the church, and the husband will be in subjection to Christ. That is the family model given by God.

No, there we completely disagree. The focus in marriage ought to be on unity, not hierarchy.

Paidiske said:

No, there we completely disagree. The focus in marriage ought to be on unity, not hierarchy.

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Unity and hierarchy are not exclusive. In fact, hierarchy can create unity when exercised with wisdom and charity.

I see them as to some degree mutually exclusive, because unity edifies both members whereas hierarchy diminishes one at the other's expense.

Paidiske said:

I see them as to some degree mutually exclusive, because unity edifies both members whereas hierarchy diminishes one at the other's expense.

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The example of Christ speaks on the contrary: Christ came to earth as God manifest in the flesh, and he had authority over all things as the Creator, causing his disciples to be in subjection to him; yet he died sacrifically for them and all men. We submit to God and his heavenly hierarchy, yet a relationship with God is only beneficial and unifying to us. My point is that God created all things in order, and if we follow God’s way, there will be unity. It’s our flesh that causes discord and disunity. Our flesh and pride cause a destruction of hierarchy, or an abuse thereof. Hierarchy as a concept is not innately wrong at all.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

My point is that God created all things in order, and if we follow God’s way, there will be unity. It’s our flesh that causes discord and disunity. Our flesh and pride cause a destruction of hierarchy, or an abuse thereof. Hierarchy as a concept is not innately wrong at all.

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I disagree. I don't believe God created women subordinate to men. I don't believe that requiring that subordination creates unity; the evidence I've seen is the exact opposite. I believe that hierarchy in marriage is destructive of our God-given potential. And I believe it's the sin of desiring power and control which drives all of this men-claiming-a-God-given-mandate-to-rule-their-women stuff. (There's the problem of the flesh here, the pride that claims "God demands that you do as I say.")

I'm not buying it.

Paidiske said:

I disagree. I don't believe God created women subordinate to men. I don't believe that requiring that subordination creates unity; the evidence I've seen is the exact opposite. I believe that hierarchy in marriage is destructive of our God-given potential. And I believe it's the sin of desiring power and control which drives all of this men-claiming-a-God-given-mandate-to-rule-their-women stuff. (There's the problem of the flesh here, the pride that claims "God demands that you do as I say.")

I'm not buying it.

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The Bible says in Ephesians 5:22-23 “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.”

I mean it says it right there, and you can’t argue with it. Unless you’re going to admit that you openly don’t agree with or believe the Bible.

But notice in the verse before (verse 21) that we are to submit to each other in fear of the Lord. Submission is a spiritual practice for all Christians. Yet Paul clarifies that it is the wife who must submit to the husband, as the church submits to Christ. A husband submits to Christ by loving his wife without bitterness as Christ loves his church, and Peter says it’s by honoring her. A husband can be her head and still do those things, which proves unity and hierarchy can be practiced harmoniously. A wife submits to Christ by submitting to her husband.

Verse 21 is the key. Submission in marriage is to be mutual, not one-sided.

The other thing to note - which often doesn't come through in English translations - is that for wives it is to their own husbands. I take it that Paul's point here is to tell wives not to introduce disunity by following men other than their husbands in a way which pulls at the fabric of the marriage.

The point is not to reduce wife to chattel.

Paidiske said:

The other thing to note - which often doesn't come through in English translations - is that for wives it is to their own husbands.

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The other thing worth noting fwiw is that, in the Greek, Ephesians 5:18-22 is one long sentence, with the main verb being be filled (with the Spirit):

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ, the wives to their own husbands, as to the Lord.

Then there's a bit of an aside on marriage, and Ephesians 6:1-9 continues the explanation of what "submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ" (which is a form of "being filled with the Spirit") means.

Most translations get "their own husbands" right, but put section headings in the wrong place. Every translation I've seen interrupts Paul's sentence with a section heading.

Probably the best way of translating this long sentence and the following section in modern English is with dot points. AFAIK, nobody has had the courage to do that:

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

• addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
• singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,
• giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
• submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ,
  • the wives to their own husbands, as to the Lord (For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.)
  • Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” (This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.)
  • Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.”
  • Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
  • Bondservants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart,rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man,knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a bondservant or is free.
  • Masters, do the same to them, and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him.

I'd like to remove all section headings from Bibles.

Paidiske said:

I'd like to remove all section headings from Bibles.

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They are useful and dangerous.

As are chapter numbers and verse numbers.

At least the numbers are just kind of a reference system. The section headings involve interpretation to a much greater degree.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

Unity and hierarchy are not exclusive. In fact, hierarchy can create unity when exercised with wisdom and charity.

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Disagree. Hierarchy always involves a disparity of power/authority which is not compatible with unity.

Christ tells me it is better to serve than to be served. So as far as it pertains to me and my role in a relationship it's up to me to be loving, compassionate, caring, giving. When it is mutual, equal, and loving then it is wonderful. Otherwise it probably isn't going to work in the long run.

I simply don't think a relationship where I'm "the boss" would ever be okay for me. I don't want a servile "little lady", I want a partner, an equal. Someone who challenges me, someone who lifts me up and helps me be a better me. I want someone who I can be strong for, and be weak with.

-CryptoLutheran

Spouses should make efforts to please their spouses: 1 peter 3

Radagast said:

The other thing worth noting fwiw is that, in the Greek, Ephesians 5:18-22 is one long sentence, with the main verb being be filled (with the Spirit):

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ, the wives to their own husbands, as to the Lord.

Then there's a bit of an aside on marriage, and Ephesians 6:1-9 continues the explanation of what "submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ" (which is a form of "being filled with the Spirit") means.

Most translations get "their own husbands" right, but put section headings in the wrong place. Every translation I've seen interrupts Paul's sentence with a section heading.

Probably the best way of translating this long sentence and the following section in modern English is with dot points. AFAIK, nobody has had the courage to do that:

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

• addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
• singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,
• giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
• submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ,
  • the wives to their own husbands, as to the Lord (For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.)
  • Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” (This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.)
  • Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.”
  • Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
  • Bondservants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart,rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man,knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a bondservant or is free.
  • Masters, do the same to them, and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him.

Click to expand...

Exactly. The whole point here is that by the power of the Spirit, our lives in Christ are to be lives of humility and service toward one another. That humility and service crosses all social boundaries. There are no top dogs and under dogs, there is instead loving, humble, compassionate service toward one another. At least that is how it should be. Obvious, as in all cases, ought and are are frequently far away from one another. Which is why there is the repeated and continual call to daily repentance.

-CryptoLutheran