Is a 3rd future Temple needed to fulfill Bible prophecy?

Is a future Temple in Jerusalem needed to fulfill Bible prophecy?


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Erik Nelson

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The temple was 46 years old at Jesus' 1st Passover (John 2:20)
Jesus' claim of rebuilding the temple in 3 days prompted the Pharisees to mock him as "not yet 50 years old" (John 8:57)

So, the Temple of Herod was about 49 years old at Jesus' final fateful Passover

So, the Temple of Herod = "7 sevens" of Daniel 9

final single seven = Jewish War (66-73 AD)
 
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claninja

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A) Please provide one verse that says there is not a pretribulation rapture.

This type of reasoning is known as an argument from ignorance or negative proof fallacy. It's a type of logical fallacy. logical fallacies are poor arguments.

The burden of proof lies on the one who makes a positive claim, not the one who makes the negative claim.

B) I have provided multiple verses that show there is a pre tribulation rapture. If you take these verses and apply deductive reasoning you should be able to arrive at the correct conclusion, if you so choose.

You haven't provided one verse that states believers will be raptured (harpazo) to heaven prior to the tribulation.

C) Jesus tells us that we will not know when he will come. He will come in a hour that we think not. I believe Him.

I agree, I also believe his words:

Matthew 24:42 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come

Are you expecting Him to make that statement and then provide you with a scripture of exactly when He is coming.

Not following you here or what sure this argument even means. Jesus stated no one knows the exact day or hour of his coming. I agree with that.

No one knows when the thief is coming. but the who is ready avoids having his house robbed, while the one who isn't ready is stolen from.

Starting in Rev 5 we see 24 elders and the throne. They say they are redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

This is not absolute proof of a pretrib rapture. You are using debatable "evidence" as your evidence. You are assuming "us" is the 100% original intent of Revelation 5:9

The KJV version has "us" = 4 living creatures and 24 elders in heaven

Revelation 5:9 (KJV) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

The ESV version has "those" = men/believers
Revelation 5:9 (ESV) . And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals,because You were slain,and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

It's important to note that many of the greek manuscripts do not contain "us".

for example, the Codex sinaiticus (330-360AD)

Revelation 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying: Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open its seals, because thou wast slain and didst redeem to God in thy blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

So it is not necessarily the 24 elders and 4 living creatures who were redeemed. It is BOTH the 24 elders and 4 living creatures that sing about God redeeming all kinds of men by the blood of Christ.

Additionally, scripture does not define who the 4 living creatures and 24 elders are. Thus any interpretation is merely personal interpretation.


That has to mean He is coming more than once. He is coming Pre Trib and then He is coming immediately after the tribulation, Pre wrath.

Logically, no, that does not "have" to mean he comes more than once.

There's another solution. No one knows when the thief comes. The one who is ready does not allow his house to be broken into. The one his sleeps and is not ready is robbed.


Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into.

The faithful servant, while he does not know when his master will return, is ready
Matthew 24:46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.

However, the wicked servant is not ready when master returns
Matthew 24:49-41 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ 49and begins to beat his fellow servantsd and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know51and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Thus, no one knows the day, the righteous in Christ are ready for that day, while the wicked are not.

In 1 Thes 4 he says those that are asleep He will bring with Him. They will rise again.......likely on a harvest feast. Jesus will bring them with Him in the clouds. When the pretribulation rapture occurs those that are alive will be caught up......with those in the clouds........to meet the Lord in the air. At this point both the barley and wheat harvest would have occurred.
1 Thes 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 thessalonians 4 does not mention be caught up prior to the tribulation, and thus is not appropriate evidence for a pretrib rapture.

Even one scripture that states believers will be caught up (harpazo) prior to the tribulation will be sufficient.

The Church will be gone pretrib as proven in Rev 5.

As shown above, revelation 5 is NOT absolute proof of a pretrib rapture.

The 144,000 that are first fruits are a guarantee of a harvest.

The holy spirit gaurantees the harvest, which sealed the church starting in the 1st century and was poured out at pentecost. Notice, I have provided explicit scripture that states that.

1 corinthians 1:22 placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a gaurantee of what is to come.

Acts 1:1-4 When the day of Pentecost came, the believers were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw tongues like flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

We can see the Matt 24 event "immediately after the tribulation" occurring in Rev 6.

The resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous occurs around the time of the great tribulation.

Daniel 12:1-2 At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—shall escape. 2And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is the fall fruit harvest. The righteous are gathered in the clouds. The unrighteous go through the wrath of God.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

I partially agree. We definitely know the grape harvest occurred from summer to fall. This is shown above with angels gathering the grapes and putting them in the wine press. However, what type of harvest is shown by the son of man?

interestingly enough, Jerusalem was destroyed during the end of summer/beginning of fall in 70Ad

Salvation comes to the Gentiles pretrib.

I agree, we can see salvation going to the gentiles in the book of Acts.

Then the eyes of 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth are opened.

we can also see this happening in the book of acts.

They go through the tribulation, but not the wrath of God.

All believers are promised not to go through the wrath of God because of the saving blood of Christ.

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

The fall fruit harvest begins at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. Summer is near when the pretribulation rapture occurs.

This appears to be more personal interpretation.
 
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claninja

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Hi claninja,

Actually there is a scripture, Acts 3: 20 & 21.

`God.....may send Jesus Christ.....who heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

Marilyn.

Hi marilyn,

The scripture you quoted (acts 3:20-21) no where mentions believers being caught up to God prior to the tribulation.

It only mentions heaven receiving Christ until the times of restoration.
 
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claninja

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Daniel's Vision is essentially linear in time,

I agree

the heights of the various body sections of the statue correspond to almost exactly analogous amounts of time

definitely a possibility, but scripture doesn't tell us this.

all points to the "little horn" = Diocletian, "rock" ushering in Millennium = Church victory under Constantine in 312 AD

I would argue the kingdom was given to the saints when Jerusalem, and not diolcetian, was destroyed, based on what Jesus said.

Matthew 21:43-44 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”e

Daniel states the kingdom would be given to the saints when the dominion was taken away from the little horn.
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end.And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’c

The author of hebrews explicitly states the saints were receiving the kingdom in the 1st century.
Hebrews 12:28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe

I also disagree with the diocletian being the 11th horn, because the kingdom doesn't turn from a rock to a mountain based on political power like constantine, but by the spreading of the power of the gospel.

Additionally, daniel is clear that 10 kings would come up from the 4th beast. Is it purely coincedence that there were 10 kings leading up to the fall of Jerusalem. Including 3 kings that abruptly fell during the jewish roman war (galba, otho, vitellius)?


In another thread, people were claiming the 4th Beast is modern times, which would require the following:

I agree, that's definitely stretching it
 
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Marilyn C

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insofar as "Gog & Magog" are non-faithful, non-believing, non-Chosen-by-God-in-heaven "non-spiritual-Israel" so-called "gentiles"... then maybe i guess so

but the "gentiles" of the Statue were bowled over by the Rock of Christ's Church in the 3rd-4th centuries AD

Christianity governed society for the next thousand years... until the conquest of Constantinople, Reformation & Renaissance (which explicitly sought to resurrect Classical Greco-Roman paganism, through Science, which is why we gave pagan names to all newly discovered planets, e.g. Uranus, Neptune, Pluto)

Hi Erik,

If the Gentile world rulers were all judged and dealt with by God, then we wouldn`t see another on the horizon.

Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi marilyn,

The scripture you quoted (acts 3:20-21) no where mentions believers being caught up to God prior to the tribulation.

It only mentions heaven receiving Christ until the times of restoration.

Hi claninja,

It actually shows that Christ will leave the Father`s throne, (being sent) come for the Body of Christ, at the beginning of the times of the restoration of all things. From there we need to see what the old testament prophets spoke of regarding the restoration of all things.

The first restoration of all things is the worthy rulership in the third heaven.

`The Lord (Father) said to my Lord (Jesus), "Sit at my right hand til I make your enemies your footstool." The Lord shall send the rod of your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies!` (Ps. 110: 1 & 2)

Thus we know that the Lord Jesus Christ will have His `own throne` (authority and power) and begin ruling over His enemies and the overcomers will be with Him.

` To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on MY THRONE, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

Marilyn.
 
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mkgal1

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Hi Erik,

If the Gentile world rulers were all judged and dealt with by God, then we wouldn`t see another on the horizon.

Marilyn.
That's correct. :oldthumbsup:

I know this is directed towards Erik, but I don't read in Scripture another judgement against those that killed the saints and Jesus. That's all behind us (and was AFTER His grace and salvation came in).
 
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mkgal1

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Hi marilyn,

The scripture you quoted (acts 3:20-21) no where mentions believers being caught up to God prior to the tribulation.

It only mentions heaven receiving Christ until the times of restoration.

Hi claninja,

It actually shows that Christ will leave the Father`s throne, (being sent) come for the Body of Christ, at the beginning of the times of the restoration of all things. From there we need to see what the old testament prophets spoke of regarding the restoration of all things.

The first restoration of all things is the worthy rulership in the third heaven.

`The Lord (Father) said to my Lord (Jesus), "Sit at my right hand til I make your enemies your footstool." The Lord shall send the rod of your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies!` (Ps. 110: 1 & 2)

Thus we know that the Lord Jesus Christ will have His `own throne` (authority and power) and begin ruling over His enemies and the overcomers will be with Him.

` To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on MY THRONE, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

Marilyn.
That is adding a LOT of presumptions to the text in order to make it fit.
 
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Marilyn C

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That's correct. :oldthumbsup:

I know this is directed towards Erik, but I don't read in Scripture another judgement against those that killed the saints and Jesus. That's all behind us (and was AFTER His grace and salvation came in).

Hi mkgal,

I actually meant that we are seeing another world ruler emerging. Sorry if it came over the other way.

Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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That is adding a LOT of presumptions to the text in order to make it fit.

Hi mkgal,

What the scripture tells us is the timing, the details are in God`s word regarding this most important topic.

Marilyn.
 
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mkgal1

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Hi mkgal,

I actually meant that we are seeing another world ruler emerging. Sorry if it came over the other way.

Marilyn.
Not "we". I'm not.

I still see God as reigning and in control of this world (and believe He will continue to reign forever). Even though it may not appear that way, because of humanity's sin, He brings "shalom to the chaos" as Ray Vander Laan puts it. He has it worked out, I believe.
 
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mkgal1

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Hi mkgal,

What the scripture tells us is the timing, the details are in God`s word regarding this most important topic.

Marilyn.
I agree - but what you posted was YOUR interpretation, not Scripture (IOW....you added a LOT of commentary to what's actually there in the text).
 
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Marilyn C

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Not "we". I'm not.

I still see God as reigning and in control of this world (and believe He will continue to reign forever). Even though it may not appear that way, because of humanity's sin, He brings "shalom to the chaos" as Ray Vander Laan puts it. He has it worked out, I believe.

Hi mkgal,

Ok, however we wont have long to see it emerge. Yes I also see that God is reigning and in control, however I see that He is bringing the rebellious nations together for judgment.

Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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I agree - but what you posted was YOUR interpretation, not Scripture (IOW....you added a LOT of commentary to what's actually there in the text).

Hi mkgal,

Yes the details need to be discussed. It is all there in scripture. What was said, was that there was no scripture to show the rapture before the trib. The scripture I wrote showed that God would send Jesus at the times of the restoration of all things. Thus one needs to know the times of the restoration of all things. I just gave a quick summary of that.

Marilyn.
 
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Erik Nelson

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I I would argue the kingdom was given to the saints when Jerusalem, and not diolcetian, was destroyed, based on what Jesus said.

Matthew 21:43-44 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”e

Daniel states the kingdom would be given to the saints when the dominion was taken away from the little horn.
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end.And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’c

The author of hebrews explicitly states the saints were receiving the kingdom in the 1st century.
Hebrews 12:28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe

I also disagree with the diocletian being the 11th horn, because the kingdom doesn't turn from a rock to a mountain based on political power like constantine, but by the spreading of the power of the gospel.

Additionally, daniel is clear that 10 kings would come up from the 4th beast. Is it purely coincedence that there were 10 kings leading up to the fall of Jerusalem. Including 3 kings that abruptly fell during the jewish roman war (galba, otho, vitellius)?
First, the 10 Kings come after. The 7 heads plus the body which is an eighth of the 7.

The 7 heads were
Caesar. Augustus. Tiberius.
Caligula. Claudius. NERO 666
Galba Otho...

Did Jewish war resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified, AND the demise of the Julius Caesar Claudian Dynasty of emperors descended from Julius Caesar who is government had authorized the crucifixion.

After the dust settles, then the 10 additional Kings each rule for one hour. After 10 hours. The 11th King arises in the 11th hour. That's almost half of a biblical day. Arguably most of 400-500 years. If one biblical day equals 1000 years.

So we need to look centuries into the future from the first century. Constantine fits the bill as the physical embodiment. Of Christ. Victory. Of course, that victory was brought about by evangelization and spreading the gospel. Saint Lawrence converted all of Rome. 65 years before Constantine won at Milvian Bridge.

As for receiving the Kingdom in the first century. Paul may have said that they were receiving the Kingdom but I doubt he said they had already received past tense the Kingdom?

In any event, the Kingdom is not the same as the Millennium. The Kingdom came with Christ the Millennium of the Kingdom in power came with the Council of Nicea. Demonium is a stage or phase. Or age. Or era or epok of the Kingdom. It's not the whole entire Kingdom itself.
 
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claninja

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It actually shows that Christ will leave the Father`s throne, (being sent) come for the Body of Christ, at the beginning of the times of the restoration of all things.

Hi Marylin,

As shown in your above response, it does not say Christ raptures (harpazo) the church prior to the tribulation.


I disagree that the beginning of the restoration of all things would "begin" with the 2nd coming of Christ. For Jesus clearly states that the restoration of all things began with John the Baptist.

mark 9:12-13 He replied, “Elijah does indeed come first, and he restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected? But I tell you that Elijah has indeed come, and they have done to him whatever they wished, just as it is written about him.”

Acts 3:21 whom heaven must receive until the time for the restoration of all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

The prophets had proclaimed "these days", which were the days of Peter in the 1st century. Notice Peter did not say "THOSE" days.

Acts 3:24 Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have proclaimed these days.

I would argue the coming of Christ consummates the restoration of all things, and is NOT the beginning of restoration.

The first restoration of all things is the worthy rulership in the third heaven.

`The Lord (Father) said to my Lord (Jesus), "Sit at my right hand til I make your enemies your footstool." The Lord shall send the rod of your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies!` (Ps. 110: 1 & 2)

Thus we know that the Lord Jesus Christ will have His `own throne` (authority and power) and begin ruling over His enemies and the overcomers will be with Him.

According to Peter, God fulfilled his oath to David having a descendent on throne at the resurrection of Christ. For Peter specifically states that when David spoke about THE RESURRECTION, he FORESAW that God would set a descendent on his throne. Thus the resurrection and ascension of Christ is the fulfillment of David having a descendant on the throne forever

Acts 2:30-31 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

And upon his resurrection ALL authoring in heaven AND ON EARTH had been given to Christ.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

For it was when Jesus ascended, not David, that he was seated at the right hand of God, until his enemies are made a footstool. Again, thus fulfilling a descendent to sit on the throne forever.

Acts 2:35-35 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’

And he IS REIGNING while his enemies are being made a footstool. "to reign" is present tense, NOT future tense.

1 Corinthians 15:25 It behooves for Him to reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

For just as Christ is ALREADY the firstborn of the dead, so to is he ALREADY the ruler of the kings on earth.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
 
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claninja

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First, the 10 Kings come after. The 7 heads plus the body which is an eighth of the 7.

The 7 heads were
Caesar. Augustus. Tiberius.
Caligula. Claudius. NERO 666
Galba Otho...

Possible interpretation

Jewish war resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified, AND the demise of the Julius Caesar Claudian Dynasty of emperors descended from Julius Caesar who is government had authorized the crucifixion.

I agree

After the dust settles, then the 10 additional Kings each rule for one hour. After 10 hours. The 11th King arises in the 11th hour. That's almost half of a biblical day. Arguably most of 400-500 years. If one biblical day equals 1000 years.

Scripture doesn't say the 10 kings each rule for 1 hour as in consecutively (10 hours). Scripture simply states that the 10 horns are 10 kings that rule for 1 hour WITH the beast, so that they have one mind.

Revelation 17:12-13 the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast.

The purpose of the 10 horns giving their authority to the beast in order to have one mind, is divinely planned by God in order to carry out his will: to destroy the woman/great city/Babylon the great.

Revelation 17:16-18 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out HIS purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

As we can see, it is a "single hour" in which judgment falls on the great city/the woman/Babylon. Thus, I would argue this 1 hour is the same as the 1 hour that the 10 horns given their authority to the beast to become one mind.

Revelation 18:10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, “Alas! Alas! You great city,
you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come.”

Revelation 18:19 And they threw dust on their heads as they wept and mourned, crying out,
“Alas, alas, for the great city where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth!
For in a single hour she has been laid waste.

Right after the woman/great city/Babylon is destroyed, a multitude in heaven rejoice that God has avenged the blood of his servants. Then multitude rejoices that the marriage of Lamb has come and the Bride has been made ready.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
and of all who have been slain on earth.”

Revelation 19:1-2 After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality,
and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.

Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;

Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that this event (beast with 10 horns destroying the woman/Babylon/great city) is, in fact, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. For Jesus stated that 1st century Jerusalem (this generation) would be responsible for all the righteous blood shed. Additionally, Jesus also stated that the wedding feast would occur after the original invited guests, who rejected the invite, were destroyed.

Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Matthew 22:7-9 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.

So we need to look centuries into the future from the first century.

In regards to revelation 17 to the first half of 19, I would disagree for reasons stated above.

fits the bill as the physical embodiment. Of Christ. Victory.

I disagree. I believe the types are found prior to Christ. Christ is the full embodiment (anti-type) of the types of the OT. I don't believe there is a future "type" of Christ, nor does scripture teach of a future "type" of Christ. Everything prior to Christ was the shadow. Now, Christ is the ever present reality.

As for receiving the Kingdom in the first century. Paul may have said that they were receiving the Kingdom but I doubt he said they had already received past tense the Kingdom?

Notice transferred is past tense. If you belong to his son, you belong to his kingdom.
Colossian 1:13 has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son.

Thus the time came when the saints were receiving the kingdom to be co heirs with Christ. Receiving is present tense in this passage
Hebrews 12:28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe.

Hebrews is dated as being written just before the Jewish Roman war, as the temple still stood. Thus, it would have been near for the kingdom being taken away from Israel and given to the saints.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment,and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;

In any event, the Kingdom is not the same as the Millennium. The Kingdom came with Christ the Millennium of the Kingdom in power came with the Council of Nicea. Demonium is a stage or phase. Or age. Or era or epok of the Kingdom. It's not the whole entire Kingdom itself.

I agree that the kingdom came with Christ. I disagree that it would come in power centuries later, for Jesus specifically states it would come with power during the generation of the 12 disciples

Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Hi mkgal,
Ok, however we wont have long to see it emerge. Yes I also see that God is reigning and in control, however I see that He is bringing the rebellious nations together for judgment.
Marilyn.
Actually God is bringing the Nations together for judgement against the great City/Harlot, 1st century Jerusalem........

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Why are the 10 horns and Beast hating the harlot?

Revelation 17:

15 And He is saying to me "These the Waters which thou saw, where the harlot is sitting,
are peoples and multitudes are being, and nations and tongues.
16 And the ten Horns which thou saw and the Beast,
These shall be hating the harlot,

and they shall be making Her desolated<2049> and naked,
and the fleshes of Her they shall be eating<5315>
and shall be burning<2618> Her in fire.

Revelation 18:
18 and they cried<2896>, observing the smoke of Her firing, saying, "What like to the great City?"
19 and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried<2896>, lamenting<2799>, weeping and mourning<3996>, saying,

Revelation 19:2
That true and righteous His judgings,
that He judges the great harlot who corrupts the earth in Her whoredom,
and avenges the blood of His bond-servants out of Her hand.
Possible interpretation

I agree

Scripture doesn't say the 10 kings each rule for 1 hour as in consecutively (10 hours). Scripture simply states that the 10 horns are 10 kings that rule for 1 hour WITH the beast, so that they have one mind.

Revelation 17:12-13 the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast.

The purpose of the 10 horns giving their authority to the beast in order to have one mind, is divinely planned by God in order to carry out his will: to destroy the woman/great city/Babylon the great.

Revelation 17:16-18 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out HIS purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

As we can see, it is a "single hour" in which judgment falls on the great city/the woman/Babylon. Thus, I would argue this 1 hour is the same as the 1 hour that the 10 horns given their authority to the beast to become one mind.

Revelation 18:10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, “Alas! Alas! You great city,
you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come.”

Revelation 18:19 And they threw dust on their heads as they wept and mourned, crying out,
“Alas, alas, for the great city where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth!
For in a single hour she has been laid waste.

Right after the woman/great city/Babylon is destroyed, a multitude in heaven rejoice that God has avenged the blood of his servants. Then multitude rejoices that the marriage of Lamb has come and the Bride has been made ready.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
and of all who have been slain on earth.”

Revelation 19:1-2 After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality,
and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.

Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;

Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that this event (beast with 10 horns destroying the woman/Babylon/great city) is, in fact, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. For Jesus stated that 1st century Jerusalem (this generation) would be responsible for all the righteous blood shed. Additionally, Jesus also stated that the wedding feast would occur after the original invited guests, who rejected the invite, were destroyed.

Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Matthew 22:7-9 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.



In regards to revelation 17 to the first half of 19, I would disagree for reasons stated above.



I disagree. I believe the types are found prior to Christ. Christ is the full embodiment (anti-type) of the types of the OT. I don't believe there is a future "type" of Christ, nor does scripture teach of a future "type" of Christ. Everything prior to Christ was the shadow. Now, Christ is the ever present reality.



Notice transferred is past tense. If you belong to his son, you belong to his kingdom.
Colossian 1:13 has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son.

Thus the time came when the saints were receiving the kingdom to be co heirs with Christ. Receiving is present tense in this passage
Hebrews 12:28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe.

Hebrews is dated as being written just before the Jewish Roman war, as the temple still stood. Thus, it would have been near for the kingdom being taken away from Israel and given to the saints.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment,and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;



I agree that the kingdom came with Christ. I disagree that it would come in power centuries later, for Jesus specifically states it would come with power during the generation of the 12 disciples

Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”
Good post...............I have a thread on those 10 kings if you and or others are interested:

Acts 1:6 Restore Kingdom to Israel/10 KINGS One Mind Reve 17
I was looking at the 10 kings w/o a kingdom in Revelation 17 and something just stuck out a me.
I then remembered the Apostles asking Jesus about restoring the kingdom of Israel to them.

The northern house/kingdom/nation of Israel was divorced by God and
that left Judah, Benjamin and the priestly tribe of Levi, forming the southern house/nation/kingdom of Judah.
Before I go any further, would anyone like to discuss this view of the 10 kings being 10 tribes of Israel [as far fetched as it may be]?

Acts 1:
6 Then they gathered around Him and asked Him, “Lord! are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority.

Revelation 17:12
And the ten horns which you perceived are ten Kings, who any a Kingdom not as yet received,
but authority as Kings one hour they are obtaining with the beast,

Jeremiah 3:8
She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce.
Yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the harlot/harlot.

.
 
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mkgal1

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Hi claninja,

Actually there is a scripture, Acts 3: 20 & 21.

`God.....may send Jesus Christ.....who heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

Marilyn.
Keep the context in mind of Acts. Here's some background for you - and the context:

Quoting N.T. Wright:
It’s pretty clear that what Luke is talking about throughout this book, and what he was talking about for much of the Gospel of Luke, is the kingdom of God. What does the kingdom of God look like? What does it mean for God to become king? What does it mean for God to take charge?​

Today people often say ‘Well, if God really was in charge, if God really did do something dramatic in and through Jesus, then surely God wouldn’t have just allowed the world to go to rack and ruin the way it seems to still be doing all the time!’.

But Jesus said again and again, in the Sermon on the Mount and in his parables, ‘This is what the kingdom of God is like. It’s quite different from what you’ve imagined’.

Likewise, Luke intends to say, ‘Actually, this is what it looks like when God takes charge. Jesus gives instructions to his chosen apostles. He equips them by his Spirit. This is what it looks like when Jesus himself is now the Lord of the world’.

It’s very surprising. Sometimes it’s actually shocking. Because things don’t work out as they want it to. Things don’t work out the way that we might want them to. But, by the end of the book, the full sweep from Acts Chapter 1 to Acts Chapter 28, we find that Paul is in Rome announcing the kingdom of God and the lordship of Jesus.


Covert Kingdom Strategy In the Book of Acts: The Kingdom Declared
 
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mkgal1

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Quoting from The Coming of Christ and the Restitution of all Things:


The term rendered "restitution" in Acts 3:21 is from the Greek verb apokaqisthmi (apokathistemai), Strong's #600: to reconstitute (in health, home or organization): - restore (again). The verb occurs in Matt. 17:11 in connection with John the Baptist:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist."

Here we find that John was to "restore all things," terminology almost identical with Peter's. The phrase harks back to Malachi's prophecy that "Elijah" (John) would turn "the heart of the fathers to the children, and heart of the children to the fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse" (Mal. 4:6). It describes in poetic terms the spiritual reformation of the people, calling them to repentance and faith in Christ. The prophecy does not imply that all men would receive John's message, for clearly they did not, but rather killed him and the Jewish nation at length fell under the curse pronounced by Malachi. This is clearly seen in Matthew's account of John's preaching:

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stone to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt. 3:7-12

John warned his countrymen that the coming of Christ would entail a time of sifting the wheat from the chaff, gathering the righteous into the kingdom of heaven - we believe by martyrdom under Nero and the Jews (II Thess. 2:1; Rev. 14:9-16) - but the wicked and disobedient to everlasting destruction in the wars and calamities that overtook the Jews and Romans in A.D. 66-70 (Lk. 21:21-24; I Thess.5:1, 2; II Thess. 7-10; Rev. 11:1,2; 14:17-20). They were not to trust in their lineal descent from Abraham for salvation, but were warned that true repentance and faith alone make men acceptable.

Just before Jesus' ascension, the disciples asked him "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" The word "restore" here is the same verb that occurs in Matt. 17:11, and which serves for the noun "restitution" in Acts 3:21. We believe restoring the kingdom to Israel refers to the glory days of Solomon, when he ruled over all the neighboring nations and Israel had world dominion.

"And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life." I Kng. 4:21

The glory and power of Solomon was typical of the dominion of Christ, who was to reign over earth's nations. It was this dominion the disciples had in mind when they asked Christ if he would then restore the kingdom (dominion) to Israel:

"Ask of me and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt rule them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel." Ps. 2:8, 9

Naturally, many supposed this would entail political and military dominion of national Israel over the Gentiles. However, Christ's kingdom was not of this world (Jn. 18:36). Christ would exercise his dominion from the right hand of God in heaven, not from earth:

"The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies." Ps. 110:1, 2

Daniel prophesied of the dominion of the saints in earth, placing it at the coming of Christ following the persecution under Nero (the "little horn"):

"And I beheld, and the same horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom…and the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him." Dan. 7:21, 22, 27

Jesus placed the coming of his kingdom "in power" - the time when he put his enemies (the Jews and Romans) beneath his feet and established his dominion over earth - within the disciples' lifetimes:

"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." Mk. 9:1; cf. Matt. 16:27, 28

Since this dominion would result from Christ's coming, and since he came in wrath upon the Jews and Romans in A.D. 66-70, restoring the kingdom/dominion to Israel naturally occurred at this same time. Restoring the kingdom/dominion therefore was consequent upon the restitution of all things; the one presupposes the other.

The relief Christ would bring to his persecuted church at his coming brings us to the next phrase in Peter's sermon, the "times of refreshing." ~ The Coming of Christ and the Restitution of All Things
 
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