A Corporeal Return? Says Who?

Neostarwcc

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Yea, so keep telling me if you wish.

When you do next time, will tell me what these unfulfilled prophecies are?

Forgive me I'm not really all that educated on the Old Testament so I don't know exactly where in the Old testament these prophecies are I just know they exist I know most of them are in the Book of Micah and the Book of Isaiah but exactly where, I don't know. This also isn't going to be a complete list there are probably many more prophecies that Christ didn't fulfill the first time around. If somebody could help me that would be greatly appreciated. The messiah is supposed to reunite Israel and bring about world peace. Christ did not fulfill that prophecy the first time around and instead came to die for humanity. The book of Revelation says that Christ will do that when he returns by creating a new Heavens and a New Earth and gesturing in a new Era of peace. The Messiah is supposed to be a conqueror like David. Christ was not a conqueror the first time he came which is one reason why the Jews don't think he's the Messiah. The Messiah is supposed to rebuild the Holy Temple and rebuild Jerusalem. Again, Christ destroyed the temple the first time and the rebuilding of the temple and the New Jerusalem is described in the book of Revelation. Also, the Prophet Elijah is supposed to return to the Earth before the coming of the Messiah. This is again fulfilled in Christ's return.

Most of the OT prophecies that Christ did not fulfill the first time around are "fixed" in the book of Revelation when Christ comes back the second time. The Jews think that the Messiah will fulfill all of the prophecies in one swoop and not in two swoops. But prophecy also says that the Jews will reject their Messiah and that one day all of them will accept the Messiah. So... yeah.
 
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Residential Bob

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Forgive me I'm not really all that educated on the Old Testament so I don't know exactly where in the Old testament these prophecies are I just know they exist I know most of them are in the Book of Micah and the Book of Isaiah but exactly where, I don't know. This also isn't going to be a complete list there are probably many more prophecies that Christ didn't fulfill the first time around. If somebody could help me that would be greatly appreciated. The messiah is supposed to reunite Israel and bring about world peace. Christ did not fulfill that prophecy the first time around and instead came to die for humanity. The book of Revelation says that Christ will do that when he returns by creating a new Heavens and a New Earth and gesturing in a new Era of peace. The Messiah is supposed to be a conqueror like David. Christ was not a conqueror the first time he came which is one reason why the Jews don't think he's the Messiah. The Messiah is supposed to rebuild the Holy Temple and rebuild Jerusalem. Again, Christ destroyed the temple the first time and the rebuilding of the temple and the New Jerusalem is described in the book of Revelation. Also, the Prophet Elijah is supposed to return to the Earth before the coming of the Messiah. This is again fulfilled in Christ's return.

Most of the OT prophecies that Christ did not fulfill the first time around are "fixed" in the book of Revelation when Christ comes back the second time. The Jews think that the Messiah will fulfill all of the prophecies in one swoop and not in two swoops. But prophecy also says that the Jews will reject their Messiah and that one day all of them will accept the Messiah. So... yeah.
Thank you. Nothing in the OT about the Messiah's second coming in the flesh. I wouldn't say this is entirely a non-answer, though. I'll address a couple things.

Christ destroyed the temple, you say. That was in 70 AD. That would have been his second coming, then. Not his first.

Also, Elijah has already returned (Mt 17:10-13). In John the Baptist lived the spirit and power of Elijah (Lk 1:17).

Elijah returned in spirit and power. So did Christ when the age ended, when he baptized in fire.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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A cloud surrounded him in the flesh? Is that so?

First, does a cloud surround him? Is that what the Bible says? Do clouds of heaven surround the Lord? Does He need such a vehicle?

When He comes to judge Egypt, He's on a cloud (Is 19:1). When He comes to judge Nineveh, clouds are the dust of His feet (Na 1:3). Clouds don't surround Him. Maybe in Acts, clouds did surround Him, but that's not what the Bible says.

This is a problem with futurism. It reads into the Bible what is not there, and yet insists that the Bible be read literally.

But I nitpick, and digress.

A cloud took him in the flesh, you say. He's human.

I, on the other hand, say he's divine.

Human beings don't resurrect; that is an act of divinity. Human beings don't appear through locked doors; that is an act of divinity. Human beings don't leave or appear in clouds of heaven; those are acts of divinity.

Or maybe you can provide examples of a human being doing any of theses of his own volition.

The resurrected Christ was transforming. He was taken out of the apostles' sight in power and glory.

They did not see a flesh-and-blood human being disappear in a cumulus cloud. They did not see a flesh-and-blood human being float up into space.

They saw the Lord taken out of their sight in power and glory.

Well first I am not a futurist but rather a partial Preterist Amillennial that being said, I don't see how Jesus being taken up in a cloud in flesh or spiritual form would have any impact on His ascension. Basically we really do not know what condition He was in. At that time the Apostles saw Him in the flesh so the assumption is He went away in the same manner.
Blessings
 
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mkgal1

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The messiah is supposed to reunite Israel and bring about world peace.
Are you referring to this futurist belief, that Israel will unwittingly be signing a seven-year peace treaty with the Antichrist?
 
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Bruce Leiter

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Jesus tells Caiaphas that he is coming in power in the clouds of heaven (Mt 26:64). Yes, clouds of heaven; not a stratus cloud, a cumulus cloud, or a fog hovering over a lake. Clouds of heaven.

Jesus also says that he will come “as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west.” (Mt 24:27) He comes as light from all directions. Also as the sound of the trumpet of God. (1 Thes 4:16). To repeat, a trumpet of God, not marching band brass.

The Bible does not describe a flesh-and-blood return of Christ.

When we consider all the ways that the Parousia is prophesied, we see that he comes everywhere. Lightning lights up the sky all around. The nature of his coming may elude us until we grasp it in the context of scripture. The way that Jesus comes—on clouds of heaven, as a call from God, as lightning—cannot be manifested in flesh and blood. A man cannot come in these ways. Christ’s advent is rather a return in power and spirit that the Scriptures corroborate. How much more glorious and momentous an advent that would be than to come in the body of a man.

Think about that for a moment, about limitations imposed on flesh and blood, even Christ’s. When in the flesh, Jesus performed miracles and amazed the crowds around him, and even some who heard by word of mouth. His miracles impacted locally. If he were to be a man again, what would change? What would his impact be globally and for all time? Would he really effect a worldwide utopia? Of course not. Even a return in power and spirit would not effect such an “idyllic” world. John the Divine says the wicked still live on the earth despite the presence of the kingdom. God’s kingdom does not vanquish evil from the world. It confronts evil and challenges it, but wickedness still persists outside the gates.

So where does the idea of a corporeal return come from? The church fathers? Dispensationalists? Who knows?

Certainly not from the Scriptures.
Go back to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. "The Lord himself" will come back. He was and is both fully God and fully human, as he demonstrated while he was on earth and before he went back to heaven. Look at Acts 1:11, where the angels tell the disciples that this same Jesus they see go will come back. He had crucifixion scares on that resurrection body. In Philippians 3:20-21, our resurrection bodies will be "like his glorious body."
The passages that you refer to have similies or comparisons. For example, his coming will be like a flash of lightning. Jesus will not come as a mere earthly man, but "every eye will see him." He comes as our divine-human Judge (Matthew 25). May we all be found "not guilty" because of his sacrifice on the cross.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Well first I am not a futurist but rather a partial Preterist Amillennial that being said, I don't see how Jesus being taken up in a cloud in flesh or spiritual form would have any impact on His ascension. Basically we really do not know what condition He was in. At that time the Apostles saw Him in the flesh so the assumption is He went away in the same manner.
Blessings

The Incarnation and Hypostatic Union are very important here. If the Lord ceased to be human, then we have a major problem. A non-human Jesus, quite simply, isn't Jesus at all. So to confess that the Lord Jesus will return in glory means it is actually Jesus, the same Divine-and-human Person that was conceived and born of Mary, lived, suffered, bled, died, was buried, rose again, ascended, and lives and reigns at the right hand of the Father.

Insisting on Jesus' return as Him bodily returning is done to insist on the reality that we confess that Jesus Christ is coming again, not anyone or anything else.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Jesus tells Caiaphas that he is coming in power in the clouds of heaven (Mt 26:64). Yes, clouds of heaven; not a stratus cloud, a cumulus cloud, or a fog hovering over a lake. Clouds of heaven.

Jesus also says that he will come “as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west.” (Mt 24:27) He comes as light from all directions. Also as the sound of the trumpet of God. (1 Thes 4:16). To repeat, a trumpet of God, not marching band brass.

The Bible does not describe a flesh-and-blood return of Christ.
Jesus always used the phrase "Son of the Man" in reference to His parousia.
I am going to take a stab here and say couldn't it be possible that he was referring to a flesh and blood man in the form of Titus in 70ad? [
First time phrase is used in Bible:
Num 23:19
God is not a man -- and lieth, And a son of man -- and repenteth! Hath He said -- and doth He not do it? And spoken -- and doth He not confirm it?

Last time used: what does it mean by "one like as a son of man"?
Rev 14:14
And I saw, and behold!a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;

Matthew 24:
3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'
27 for even as the lightning/star-flashes/astraph <796> comes-out from risings, and is appearing till of west, thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man;
37
For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man
39
and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted all! away. Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man.

The Jews actually asks Jesus who is this Son of Man?

Jhn 12:34
the multitude answered him, 'We heard out of the law that the Christ doth remain -- to the age; and how dost thou say, That it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up? who is this -- the Son of Man?'

Matthew 24:3

Yet of Him sitting upon the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us.....

After His ascension:

Act 1:12
Then did they return to Jerusalem from the mount that is called of Olives, that is near Jerusalem, a sabbath's journey;

Coincidentally, Titus and his elite 10th Legion encamped on the Mount of Olives with a direct clear view of the Temple on the east side of the City.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

This map shows the location of the 1st century Mount of Olives in relation to the Temple/Jerusalem to the east.

300321_fe76ada45ae387c4178052fe52f3f292.JPG


And just for info, this map shows the position of the Roman Legions under about 40 yrs later.
Titus and his 10th Legion is camped on the Mount of Olives.

300320_bd3c4a55a2acc9d0f36c50211f02864f.jpg


.................................
 
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JLHargus

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Or, the Catholic claim that Jesus returned spiritually, around the time of Constantine or Charlemagne. Effectively. They do not stand by this enough to have put it in their catechism, because it is terrible distortion of Revelation and all Prophecy.
Yes it is a terrible distortion of Revelation, Prophecy and Catholic teaching. The Church has never taught such a ridiculous teaching. Please if you want correct Catholic teaching use a Catholic source. Otherwise you are going to get this sort of non-sense that Catholic’s see and even hear on some Protestant TV programs all the time.
 
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Residential Bob

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Jesus always used the phrase "Son of the Man" in reference to His parousia.
I am going to take a stab here and say couldn't it be possible that he was referring to a flesh and blood man in the form of Titus in 70ad? [
First time phrase is used in Bible:
Num 23:19
God is not a man -- and lieth, And a son of man -- and repenteth! Hath He said -- and doth He not do it? And spoken -- and doth He not confirm it?

Last time used: what does it mean by "one like as a son of man"?
Rev 14:14
And I saw, and behold!a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;

Matthew 24:
3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'
27 for even as the lightning/star-flashes/astraph <796> comes-out from risings, and is appearing till of west, thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man;
37
For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man
39
and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted all! away. Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man.

The Jews actually asks Jesus who is this Son of Man?

Jhn 12:34
the multitude answered him, 'We heard out of the law that the Christ doth remain -- to the age; and how dost thou say, That it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up? who is this -- the Son of Man?'

Matthew 24:3

Yet of Him sitting upon the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us.....

After His ascension:

Act 1:12
Then did they return to Jerusalem from the mount that is called of Olives, that is near Jerusalem, a sabbath's journey;

Coincidentally, Titus and his elite 10th Legion encamped on the Mount of Olives with a direct clear view of the Temple on the east side of the City.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

This map shows the location of the 1st century Mount of Olives in relation to the Temple/Jerusalem to the east.

300321_fe76ada45ae387c4178052fe52f3f292.JPG


And just for info, this map shows the position of the Roman Legions under about 40 yrs later.
Titus and his 10th Legion is camped on the Mount of Olives.

300320_bd3c4a55a2acc9d0f36c50211f02864f.jpg


.................................
Titus may have been instrumental in the judgment. That was all.

God spoke to the patriarchs in a cloud, as for example, when the people were in the tent of meeting (Ex 33:8-10). In Numbers 14:14, we see a similar picture. When the Lord stands face to face with His people, He is not literally face to face with them. He is among them, invisible, in a cloud by day and perhaps a fire by night. To be face to face with His people, or among them as if in a cloud, is simply to be with them, in their midst.

God speaks face to face with His people, but not literally face to face, for no one could behold His glory and live (Ex 33:20). Not even the high priest could look directly at God’s face in the Holy of Holies and expect to live. He needed to enter it with a cloud thick enough to shield himself from God’s overpowering presence, hence his incense (Lv 16:13). God’s physical presence could overwhelm people, and a cirrus cloud is a physical presence.

Besides fellowship with the patriarchs, the Lord also comes on a cloud to judge Egypt (Is 19:1). Nahum refers to clouds as the dust of God’s feet when He judges Nineveh (1:3). The psalmist refers to clouds as the Lord’s chariot (104:3), a horse-drawn vehicle He uses in warfare. In all cases, of course, God judges a particular people and never the entire planet.

This is true of the final judgment, when Jesus tells Caiaphas that he is coming in power in the clouds of heaven (Mt 26:64). Judgment this time is against Judea. Epistolary passages written in the future tense are written in anticipation of the final judgment on Judea, when Jerusalem and the temple fall. James exhorts his brethren to endure this tribulation until the coming of the Lord (5:7-8). He is anticipating the coming judgment of Christ that the Romans are bringing, or the day that the Judeans go down in defeat.

Jesus then tells the high priest that from now on, he is seated at the right hand of power in the clouds. From now on. Has anyone seen the figure of a man on a cloud these last two thousand years? The phrase from now on also describes the fate of Judea. Judea lost its identity when judgment befell it, and still has not recovered it.

The old covenant has expired; the new is in place. The new creation is here. Hallelujah!
 
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JLHargus

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But I nitpick, and digress.

A cloud took him in the flesh, you say. He's human.

I, on the other hand, say he's divine.

I, on the other hand say he’s both God and man bodily in heaven.

[Lk24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.]

[Rv1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.]

The Word was God the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, my Lord and my God. The God man Jesus Christ savior of the world who was pierced on the cross and is the one to come the Almighty, our High Priest.

[Hb7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;]

[1Tm2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;]

[Hb10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;]

[Hb12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:]

[Rv5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;]

[Mt26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.]
 
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Pedra

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As I read scripture it's not either or. Jesus appeared to the disciples in His glorified body that can be seen as real and alive as the physical & interact, not as just a vaporous apparition nor just being transported around by a cloud. He appeared and ate recorded in Luke 24:42. He is obviously more than physical, & not just some apparition. When Jesus appears to His followers after the resurrection, the Lord is in His glorified body & can be seen, appear and interacts physically as HE chooses as the scriptures below indicate. Then there are the scriptures that tell of His fierce return as the Lion of Judah , His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives & split it, where His return will strike fear in hearts of the nations & all upon the earth will tremble as Zechariah 14:4 & Ezekiel 38:20 give account of the Lord's Return. He will sit on a throne in Jerusalem during His Millenial reign & rule with an iron rod as it is written Revelation 2:27.
Ezekiel 38:20
"The fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, every creature that crawls upon the ground, and all mankind on the face of the earth will tremble at My presence. The mountains will be thrown down, the cliffs will collapse, and every wall will fall to the ground."
Mark 16: 11-13 :11And when they heard that Jesus was alive and she had seen Him, they did not believe it. 12After this, Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them as they walked along in the country. 13And they went back and reported it to the rest, but they did not believe them either.…

John 20:19
It was the first day of the week, and that very evening, while the disciples were together with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them. "Peace be with you!" He said to them.
John 21:14
This was now the third time Jesus appeared to the disciples after He was raised from the dead.

Acts 1:3
After His suffering, He presented Himself to them with many convincing proofs that He was alive. He appeared to them over a span of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.
 
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claninja

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When Christ returns he will return in the same physical body that he has when he rose from the grave and every one will be able to see his return.

Paul states that the earth has one type of flesh and the heavens have another type of flesh. Thus when we rise, we are sown in a natural body (our current flesh) and risen in a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:39-44 Not all flesh is the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another, and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the splendor of the heavenly bodies is of one degree, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is of another. The sun has one degree of splendor, the moon another, and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

Paul states the spiritual body that we will be transformed into is like the glorious body of Jesus

Philippians 3:21 who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.


According to John, what we will be (spiritual body) has not been revealed yet. But when Christ appears will be like his glorious body


1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

**So if Jesus is still in his fleshly body upon his return, John is wrong, for that body was revealed to the disciples for 40 days post the resurrection until the ascension.

We were never promised that our flesh would not see decay. Only Jesus was prophesied to never see decay. Thus he was raised in his same fleshly body, with the same holes in his hands a side.
Acts 2:27 because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.

Then upon ascension into heaven he was glorified into a body that has not been completely revealed to us.


 
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Residential Bob

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Paul states that the earth has one type of flesh and the heavens have another type of flesh. Thus when we rise, we are sown in a natural body (our current flesh) and risen in a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:39-44 Not all flesh is the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another, and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the splendor of the heavenly bodies is of one degree, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is of another. The sun has one degree of splendor, the moon another, and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

Paul states the spiritual body that we will be transformed into is like the glorious body of Jesus

Philippians 3:21 who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.


According to John, what we will be (spiritual body) has not been revealed yet. But when Christ appears will be like his glorious body


1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

**So if Jesus is still in his fleshly body upon his return, John is wrong, for that body was revealed to the disciples for 40 days post the resurrection until the ascension.

We were never promised that our flesh would not see decay. Only Jesus was prophesied to never see decay. Thus he was raised in his same fleshly body, with the same holes in his hands a side.
Acts 2:27 because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.

Then upon ascension into heaven he was glorified into a body that has not been completely revealed to us.

That Jesus's body would not see corruption doesn't mean that his corporeal body would last forever. Human flesh decays. By definition, that's what it does. If Jesus' body did not decay, it was not human; it was divine.

When Paul sees Jesus on the road to Damascus, he does not see a human body; he sees light. Later, he sees even further transformation; he sees Christ's body as the church.

Like Elijah, Jesus returned in spirit and power. But more than Elijah, Jesus returned everywhere. Like lightening, visible from east to west, Jesus is everywhere.
 
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claninja

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That Jesus's body would not see corruption doesn't mean that his corporeal body would last forever. Human flesh decays. By definition, that's what it does. If Jesus' body did not decay, it was not human; it was divine.

When Paul sees Jesus on the road to Damascus, he does not see a human body; he sees light. Later, he sees even further transformation; he sees Christ's body as the church.

Like Elijah, Jesus returned in spirit and power. But more than Elijah, Jesus returned everywhere. Like lightening, visible from east to west, Jesus is everywhere.


As a fellow preterist, I agree RB. My point was that:

1.) Jesus' fleshly body, not our bodies, was prophesied to never see decay (acts 2:27). Jesus' earthly fleshly body, post resurrection, was no different than his earthly fleshly body pre resurrection, because of that promise (acts 2:27). He was able to do miraculous things pre resurrection and post resurrection with his same fleshly body.

2.) Paul makes it specifically clear that our resurrection is NOT from natural flesh to natural flesh like Jesus, but from natural body TO SPIRITUAL body (1 Corinthians 15:44).

3.) What we WILL be, this resurrection from natural body to spiritual, has not yet been revealed. But when it is, THEN WE WILL BE LIKE HIM (1 john 3:2).

Thus, IF Jesus, in heaven, is still in his earthly fleshly body, then our resurrection will make us like him: another earthly fleshly body. This belief contradicts points 2 and 3 above. if Jesus is still in his earthly fleshly body in heaven, then what we will be like has already been revealed, as it was revealed to the disciples in the 1st century prior to Jesus' ascension. AND if our resurrection is like Jesus and we will be like him, then we go from natural flesh to natural flesh, which directly contradicts Paul's teaching of natural to spiritual (1 Corinthians 15:44).

Thus the purpose of Jesus being resurrected in the same exact earthly flesh was to fulfill scripture (his flesh would never see corruption). I believe that upon entrance into the heavens, he was glorified and thus no longer has a fleshly body, but is spiritual. Thus, when we are resurrected from natural to spiritual, we will be like him.
 
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Residential Bob

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As a fellow preterist, I agree RB. My point was that:

1.) Jesus' fleshly body, not our bodies, was prophesied to never see decay (acts 2:27). Jesus' earthly fleshly body, post resurrection, was no different than his earthly fleshly body pre resurrection, because of that promise (acts 2:27). He was able to do miraculous things pre resurrection and post resurrection with his same fleshly body.

2.) Paul makes it specifically clear that our resurrection is NOT from natural flesh to natural flesh like Jesus, but from natural body TO SPIRITUAL body (1 Corinthians 15:44).

3.) What we WILL be, this resurrection from natural body to spiritual, has not yet been revealed. But when it is, THEN WE WILL BE LIKE HIM (1 john 3:2).

Thus, IF Jesus, in heaven, is still in his earthly fleshly body, then our resurrection will make us like him: another earthly fleshly body. This belief contradicts points 2 and 3 above. if Jesus is still in his earthly fleshly body in heaven, then what we will be like has already been revealed, as it was revealed to the disciples in the 1st century prior to Jesus' ascension. AND if our resurrection is like Jesus and we will be like him, then we go from natural flesh to natural flesh, which directly contradicts Paul's teaching of natural to spiritual (1 Corinthians 15:44).

Thus the purpose of Jesus being resurrected in the same exact earthly flesh was to fulfill scripture (his flesh would never see corruption). I believe that upon entrance into the heavens, he was glorified and thus no longer has a fleshly body, but is spiritual. Thus, when we are resurrected from natural to spiritual, we will be like him.
True enough.

To wait on a flesh-and-blood return is pointless. It's not even biblical.

And I, for one, am not waiting for him. I rejoice in his presence now.
 
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juvenissun

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Jesus tells Caiaphas that he is coming in power in the clouds of heaven (Mt 26:64). Yes, clouds of heaven; not a stratus cloud, a cumulus cloud, or a fog hovering over a lake. Clouds of heaven.

Jesus also says that he will come “as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west.” (Mt 24:27) He comes as light from all directions. Also as the sound of the trumpet of God. (1 Thes 4:16). To repeat, a trumpet of God, not marching band brass.

The Bible does not describe a flesh-and-blood return of Christ.

Yes, clouds of heaven, and lightening fast, and not in flesh-and-blood like we are. But all these do not exclude that we can see His coming.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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If he does not return in flesh and blood and fulfill the remaining prophesies that were not fulfilled the first time around then he is and was not the messiah.
Hello tampasteve.

The Jews believe their Messiah will accomplish ALL things the first time He comes.
Look at how they view the Christian response. [I debated Jews for a number of years until I realized the confusion with the Christian Church of God. Is it any wonder why it is difficult to get them to believe.

Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus
Messianic Predictions


The main predictions concerning the Messiah are that he will bring peace to the world, gather the Jewish people from their exile to the land of Israel and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.
After Jesus' appearance, the Temple was destroyed, the Jews were exiled all over the world and we have not even had one day of peace in the past 2,000 years. (Many of the wars in fact were started and fought by followers of Jesus) These events are enough to show that he was not the messiah.

The main Christian responses to these objections are:
  1. The Second Coming - First of all, we find this to be a contrived answer, since there is no mention of a second coming in the Jewish Bible.
  2. Second, why couldn't G-d accomplish His goals the first time round. Most importantly, the second coming idea is just an attempt at answering an obvious question but it certainly does not constitute proof of messianic claims.
===================================================
When He comes, wrath and vengeance immediately follows, which is what happened to the Jewish nation in 70ad

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohim, To comfort all mourners.[Luke 4:21 Luke 21:22]

Malachi 4:5
Behold! I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Yahweh comes.
Ezekiel 38:21
Then will I call against him every terror, declareth My Lord Yahweh.
The sword of every man against his brother shall be;
[Matt 10:34/Revelation 6:4]

Here is what Jesus says:

Matthew 10:
21"Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child. Children will rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death.

34 "No you should be supposing that I came to be casting Peace upon the land.
Not I came to be casting Peace, but a Sword [Ezekiel 38:21 Revelation 6:4]


Mark 13:12
'And brother shall deliver up brother to death
, and father child, and children shall rise up against parents, and shall put them to death,

Luke 12:51
Ye are supposing that Peace I came to give in the land?
Nay I am saying to ye, but rather Division:

Revelation 6:4

and there went forth another horse--red, and to him who is sitting upon it, there was given to him to take the peace from the land,
and that one another they may slay, and there was given to him a great sword.
[Ezekiel 38:21]
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Zechariah 14:3-4
Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

In 70ad, Titus and his legion camped on the Mount of Olives, where Jesus had given His Olivet Discourse 40yr earlier.........

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
Mark 13
3 And as He sat on the Mount of Olives over against the Temple,

https://www.bible-history.com/jerusalem/firstcenturyjerusalem_mount_of_olives.html

The closeness of the Mount of Olives to Jerusalem's walls made this series of hills a grave strategic danger. The Roman commander Titus had his headquarters on the northern extension of the ridge during the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. He named the place Mount Scopus, or "Lookout Hill," because of the view which it offered over the city walls.
The whole hill must have provided a platform for the Roman catapults that hurled heavy objects over the Jewish fortifications of the City.

In Revelation, it shows Jesus on Mt Zion

Rev 14:1
Then I looked, and behold! a Lambkin standing on Mount Zion,
and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having[fn] His Father's name written on their foreheads.
Heb 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
 
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