The Missing Piece of Our Christianity, the Key to Overcoming (Multi-part)

Gideons300

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The crucified life is not something that strikes a chord with the self-indulgent, carnal Church of today. Denying one's self, taking up one's cross and dying upon it, is not an attractive prospect for those who are looking for their "best life now." A pastor who wants to put as many butts in the seats on a Sunday as possible and so fill the church coffers, cannot preach death to Self. Such a doctrine repels the self-centered lost and the carnally-minded believer. But those who are desperate to know God, who long for Him and the holy, abundant, joyful life of fellowship with Him that He holds out to all in Christ, know that such a life only comes through being crucified with Christ.
Jesus said that unless we hate our own life we cannot be His disciples. So how, when our nature is a self loving nature, can we do that?

God has told us to be holy as He is holy, and our response is to try.... hard... and fail.... always. Why? It is our strength trying to fulfill the walk God has for us and it simply cannot do it. We are told that the law (self effort) is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Our attempting to obey and failing is what makes us finally see how fallen our old nature is and how exceedingly sinful sin really is.... yes, even the small ones.

It is this process that produces the brokenness in us to where we are finally ready to ‘only believe’. So satan’s Tactic is easy to see. Remove the need for holiness, make it unappealing, hard, impossible and people are never led to that crisis point where, like Paul in Romans 7, they truly see their problem is not a few major sins, their real problem is THEM.... their very nature and it must die.

And those who see this finally stop looking for either a way to lower the standard or.... to somehow try to fulfill it in their own strength. One puts the man on the road of greasy grace and th other makes the man a hard religious legalist.

But blessed are those who refuse to lower the standard and arrive at th place they see themselves as wretched men, and cry out to God to liberate them from their fallen nature.

Dying to see is not hard. Getting to that point where you are willing to fully surrender? That is the painful part. But oh, is it worth it. Satan has so lied to us that a life of full surrender is hard, painful, and unrewarding and as a whole we have bitten that apple. The truth is joy makes everything “that good and acceptable and perfect will of God”.

Thank you so much for your wisdom and insights.

Many blessings.

Gideon
 
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Gideons300

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"Somebody" replied to my request for the meaning of "holding up our shield of faith" and I am grateful.

I personally do as I suggested to another poster, I make up my mind to sin or not. I imagine it could take prayer at the moment, and/or rebuking Satan, and that some need to use whatever means they deem necessary it they have a tough time stopping there sin, and they should, but in the end, as I said earlier it's up to us of we sin or not.

There is no magical power that keeps us from sinning, and if something came close, it would be the fact, I'm a terrible sinner in Gods eyes, I thank God he understands and made a way for that, so I am grateful enough I don't want to do wrong. That, and it's simply against the rules to live in sin, and if we do, we go to hell. That in itself helps a lot.:eek:

God not only gives us an ultimatum, but loves and cares for us enough to make it pretty easy to want to please him.

Same exact thing if my earthly dad treated me very well/offered me good things for the future even though I messed up on occasion, or even often, he knew I was trying and sorry when I did mess up. And because he has been do good to me, I simply want to please him.

It's just so simple to me, and I'm afraid there are way to many "dramatics" passing the lips of preachers today, so many they make the simple sound complicated, especially to the new Christian.

Aside from the magic of love there is nothing mystical magical or complicated about it.
Brother, there are multitudes who are alcoholics, addicts, sexaholics who long to stop and simply cannot. There was an attempt to stem the drug invasion with the saying “just say no”. You are blessed that you are not found in one of the above categories, but what counsel can we give the opiate addict, the alcoholic when sin has them by the throat?

And as we dig deeper into holiness, where God examines the thoughts and intents of our hearts, there must come a time we realize our problem is not sinful acts, but the fact that our nature is the problem. When a man or woman arrives at that point, choosing God’s will over ours is another story altogether.

And until we see that, we will be content to have no major outer sins,
and think we are doing great, when the truth is that we are still ruled by self. In the days to come, that will simply not cut it. Sin, even the small ones, the little foxes who spoil the vine, must go. All willful sin is a recipe for judgment. But we have been fed a diet where we have concluded that small sins are somehow not offensive to God. We are wrong.

There is a way out, but it can only be seen when we come broken before God and cry out for full deliverance from US. That is the awakening I refer to and it is coming for us wherher we like it or not. It is called the valley of decision, and each one of us will decide who we want to reign over us.... Us with our bus pass to Heaven or Him indwelling us, keeping us from falling.

Blessings,

Gids
 
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Kenny'sID

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God has told us to be holy as He is holy, and our response is to try.... hard... and fail.... always. Why? It is our strength trying to fulfill the walk God has for us and it simply cannot do it.

They can if they make up their mind to. What you are indicating there is the very reason I asked you earlier if you had eradicated sin in your life, like you indicated we need to do. My guess is you have not anymore than the rest of us.

Now, by saying, after trying those things you mention we still "simply cannot do it", you imply you have a way that we can, and that is where you ere or that there is some misunderstanding, because none of us can do it. We can only strive to do better...all God expects of us.

Brother, there are multitudes who are alcoholics, addicts, sexaholics who long to stop and simply cannot. There was an attempt to stem the drug invasion with the saying “just say no”. You are blessed that you are not found in one of the above categories, but what counsel can we give the opiate addict, the alcoholic when sin has them by the throat?

Cannot? No, will not. And I have been in those categories, most of them, which brings me to my point. After having trouble with a paranoid pain manager, I went to another doctor, got a months supply of 175mci fentanyl, my normal dose ( a heapn' helpn' BTW) for almost 2yrs, and weened off it myself in 30days. The doctors generally remove 25mci per month, and would take 7 months to ween of that much, so they make it extremely easy as the norm. stopped smoking after around 45 yrs addicted, and am still working on other things but am way way better than I was.

Again, if you/anyone needs that, and it helps you to stop sinning, you should do it, but i'd suggest you not tell oters it absolutely cannot be done but just making up our mind because that is simply not true.

Your experience, as mentioned, and what more than one poster here has tried to get across to you is just that... your experience, but you seem to think its a revelation that we will never get unless we listen to you, when chances are we, or many of us, are already aware of these things, and have moved beyond that to other realities like "it's just not that complicated unless we make it that complicated".

By all means, help those who need what you are teaching, but the attitude, "No one or not too many know these thing but me, and you need my input or you just won't make it" is for the birds. And quite honestly it worries me when people do that.

And until we see that, we will be content to have no major outer sins, and think we are doing great, when the truth is that we are still ruled by self. In the days to come, that will simply not cut it. Sin, even the small ones,

Now you have made it so i have to ask again:

Have you eradicated sin in your life? Again, for you and the mods on the "goading" angle, no one is demanding an answer or badgering you, but 1), you keep bringing up the necessity to ask again. 2) if you do not answer, it shows there is a problem/something off in what you are teaching. Just so you understand how some here will react to how a question is handled in debate.
 
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Gideons300

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They can if they make up their mind to. What you are indicating there is the very reason I asked you earlier if you had eradicated sin in your life, like you indicated we need to do. My guess is you have not anymore than the rest of us.

Now, by saying, after trying those things you mention we still "simply cannot do it", you imply you have a way that we can, and that is where you ere or that there is some misunderstanding, because none of us can do it. We can only strive to do better...all God expects of us.



Cannot? No, will not. And I have been in those categories, most of them, which brings me to my point. After having trouble with a paranoid pain manager, I went to another doctor, got a months supply of 175mci fentanyl, my normal dose ( a heapn' helpn' BTW) for almost 2yrs, and weened off it myself in 30days. The doctors generally remove 25mci per month, and would take 7 months to ween of that much, so they make it extremely easy as the norm. stopped smoking after around 45 yrs addicted, and am still working on other things but am way way better than I was.

Again, if you/anyone needs that, and it helps you to stop sinning, you should do it, but i'd suggest you not tell oters it absolutely cannot be done but just making up our mind because that is simply not true.

Your experience, as mentioned, and what more than one poster here has tried to get across to you is just that... your experience, but you seem to think its a revelation that we will never get unless we listen to you, when chances are we, or many of us, are already aware of these things, and have moved beyond that to other realities like "it's just not that complicated unless we make it that complicated".

By all means, help those who need what you are teaching, but the attitude, "No one or not too many know these thing but me, and you need my input or you just won't make it" is for the birds. And quite honestly it worries me when people do that.



Now you have made it so i have to ask again:

Have you eradicated sin in your life? Again, for you and the mods on the "goading" angle, no one is demanding an answer or badgering you, but 1), you keep bringing up the necessity to ask again. 2) if you do not answer, it shows there is a problem/something off in what you are teaching. Just so you understand how some here will react to how a question is handled in debate.

Kenny, I want to walk in peace with you. You seem bent on trying to back me into a forner and make this about me, and not about God’s ability to keep us from falling into sin.

But you asked a question, so if it will placate you, I will tell you exactly what God has been able to do with a wretched man as I was that night He visited me.

I told you that I was a inappropriate content addict. I did not tell you to what extent. It controlled my life. I was the poster child for Romans 7. The things I wanted to do, I could not do. The things I so wanted to avoid, had me by the throat. There were times I masturbated 6-7 times a day. Ashamed to admit it? You bet. But that is what he had to work with that night twelve years ago. I had a temper, an anger at the church who could not see how far they had fallen, but the only answer I had was to try harder. If I was going to have to serve a God who demanded obedience but seemed to offer us no help, so was everyone else.

I did not like myself and was fully aware of my sad state, but after years, even decades of trying, I was in worse shape than at the beginning. I had fasted up to 21 days, memorized large portions of the New Testament, served as a home pastor for my church, started a jail ministry, went to church faithfully three times a week, and the result? A legalistic, angry, insecure, impatient religious man who desperately wanted to please His God with his full obedience but like Paul, found no way to become that man. Just say no? Yeah, right.

That night 12 years ago changed everything. My masturbation stopped....immediately. I went two full years before I offended my conscience and sinned. I had a lesson to learn. After two years of joy and total complete victory, I had come to interpret the words of John as backing sinless perfectionism, and that is not true at all. God had to teach me truth, even if it hurt, and but, did it.

You asked me if I had eradicated all sin in my life. Do you know how many sins I have overcome? Zero. Not one. You see, you are still looking at my sharing as something WE have to accomplish, and that is the exact opposite of how this works. We as the church have lost the entire concept that God can and will keep us from falling, and can and will actually cause us (His words) to walk in obedience. But when I spoke out truth with reckoning faith that the old me was dead.... God did what God promised.

For the past twelve years I have walked this path, and yes, there have been a few times I slipped into sin due to unbelief. The first time, after two years of solid abiding in Him, I fell into a darkness that lasted months. And in that time, with unbelief again in control, I sinned again, to my eternal shame.

I have walked this path alone as to fellowship in the faith, and have had only the Lord to teach and lead me, but I can say this with complete honesty. As I have raised my shield of faith when Satan attacked me with temptations or difficult situations, God has been faithful to His promises and these twelve years have not been without testing.

I am almost 70, and 5 years ago we adopted Jack, our youngest of eleven grandchildren. Two years ago, we adopted Gavin, our two and a half year old great grandson. There simply were only two options available.... turning these precious boys over to the state or take them in as our own. It was never a question in our minds, and to this day, I have not had one regret. Ever.

My golden years retirement now is to get up with two live wires, continue going to work building decks, and every day I get to come home to “Daddy’s home!”. I am blessed. By my calculations, should the Lord tarry, I will be 85 when Gavin graduates high school. God indeed has a sense of humor! LOL.

We have had to bury a son-in-law and than a daughter to drug overdoses, and two years ago, my beautiful wife was diagnosed with stage four cancer in both lungs (she never smoked) as well as kidney cancer. And in all that time, I have been able to trust that He had everything under control. Terry was declared cancer free six months ago, to the amazement of her oncologist. They had given her less than six months.

I have not only seen besetting sins disappear, lose their grip completely, but just as amazingly, I have seen fruits of the Spirit begin to sprout. Anger has been replaced with patience and kindness, and compassion replace judgment. Have I arrived? LOL, my wife will tell you no. I will agree. I started in such a dark place that I still have far to go, but I would be remiss if I did not glorify God for what He has done in me.

One last thing. I want to clarify our concept of the victory of which I speak. It is not instantaneous overcoming. It is based totally on our faith. The more our faith grows, the more victorious we become. Let’s remember, self control is a fruit of the Spirit.

I have not arrived, not even close. But as to willful purposeful sin? That is no more. Period. IF I slip, as I am becoming established in the faith, I call a spade a spade, confess it in deep shame, turn from it, but then I do one more thing..... I pick back up my shield of faith and confess that I am not in the flesh but in the Spirit, and that I owe the flesh nothing. Why? Because it is the truth.

I pray all this talk about my walk does not come off as any way prideful. You asked. I replied. That is all. But whatever changes I have seen in my walk, whatever victories I have been blessed with are due to one thing. God in me... with me dead. He gets the glory, for He has done the work.

Blessings to you.

Gideon
 
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Kenny'sID

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Kenny, I want to walk in peace with you. You seem bent on trying to back me into a forner and make this about me, and not about God’s ability to keep us from falling into sin.

But you asked a question, so if it will placate you, I will tell you exactly what God has been able to do with a wretched man as I was that night He visited me.

I told you that I was a inappropriate content addict. I did not tell you to what extent. It controlled my life. I was the poster child for Romans 7. The things I wanted to do, I could not do. The things I so wanted to avoid, had me by the throat. There were times I masturbated 6-7 times a day. Ashamed to admit it? You bet. But that is what he had to work with that night twelve years ago. I had a temper, an anger at the church who could not see how far they had fallen, but the only answer I had was to try harder. If I was going to have to serve a God who demanded obedience but seemed to offer us no help, so was everyone else.

I did not like myself and was fully aware of my sad state, but after years, even decades of trying, I was in worse shape than at the beginning. I had fasted up to 21 days, memorized large portions of the New Testament, served as a home pastor for my church, started a jail ministry, went to church faithfully three times a week, and the result? A legalistic, angry, insecure, impatient religious man who desperately wanted to please His God with his full obedience but like Paul, found no way to become that man. Just say no? Yeah, right.

That night 12 years ago changed everything. My masturbation stopped....immediately. I went two full years before I offended my conscience and sinned. I had a lesson to learn. After two years of joy and total complete victory, I had come to interpret the words of John as backing sinless perfectionism, and that is not true at all. God had to teach me truth, even if it hurt, and but, did it.

You asked me if I had eradicated all sin in my life. Do you know how many sins I have overcome? Zero. Not one. You see, you are still looking at my sharing as something WE have to accomplish, and that is the exact opposite of how this works. We as the church have lost the entire concept that God can and will keep us from falling, and can and will actually cause us (His words) to walk in obedience. But when I spoke out truth with reckoning faith that the old me was dead.... God did what God promised.

For the past twelve years I have walked this path, and yes, there have been a few times I slipped into sin due to unbelief. The first time, after two years of solid abiding in Him, I fell into a darkness that lasted months. And in that time, with unbelief again in control, I sinned again, to my eternal shame.

I have walked this path alone as to fellowship in the faith, and have had only the Lord to teach and lead me, but I can say this with complete honesty. As I have raised my shield of faith when Satan attacked me with temptations or difficult situations, God has been faithful to His promises and these twelve years have not been without testing.

I am almost 70, and 5 years ago we adopted Jack, our youngest of eleven grandchildren. Two years ago, we adopted Gavin, our two and a half year old great grandson. There simply were only two options available.... turning these precious boys over to the state or take them in as our own. It was never a question in our minds, and to this day, I have not had one regret. Ever.

My golden years retirement now is to get up with two live wires, continue going to work building decks, and every day I get to come home to “Daddy’s home!”. I am blessed. By my calculations, should the Lord tarry, I will be 85 when Gavin graduates high school. God indeed has a sense of humor! LOL.

We have had to bury a son-in-law and than a daughter to drug overdoses, and two years ago, my beautiful wife was diagnosed with stage four cancer in both lungs (she never smoked) as well as kidney cancer. And in all that time, I have been able to trust that He had everything under control. Terry was declared cancer free six months ago, to the amazement of her oncologist. They had given her less than six months.

I have not only seen besetting sins disappear, lose their grip completely, but just as amazingly, I have seen fruits of the Spirit begin to sprout. Anger has been replaced with patience and kindness, and compassion replace judgment. Have I arrived? LOL, my wife will tell you no. I will agree. I started in such a dark place that I still have far to go, but I would be remiss if I did not glorify God for what He has done in me.

One last thing. I want to clarify our concept of the victory of which I speak. It is not instantaneous overcoming. It is based totally on our faith. The more our faith grows, the more victorious we become. Let’s remember, self control is a fruit of the Spirit.

I have not arrived, not even close. But as to willful purposeful sin? That is no more. Period. IF I slip, as I am becoming established in the faith, I call a spade a spade, confess it in deep shame, turn from it, but then I do one more thing..... I pick back up my shield of faith and confess that I am not in the flesh but in the Spirit, and that I owe the flesh nothing. Why? Because it is the truth.

I pray all this talk about my walk does not come off as any way prideful. You asked. I replied. That is all. But whatever changes I have seen in my walk, whatever victories I have been blessed with are due to one thing. God in me... with me dead. He gets the glory, for He has done the work.

Blessings to you.

Gideon

Is there a direct answer to my question in there? If so, please point it out. I ask because if this it one of those answers that I'm suppose to see but is not direct, I'm simply not going to see it. The question was simple, but again, if you chose not to answer, that's up to you.

And no, I'm not trying to back you into a corner, and hope you will not end up there of your own accord.
 
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Gideons300

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Is there a direct answer to my question in there? If so, please point it out. I ask because if this it one of those answers that I'm suppose to see but is not direct, I'm simply not going to see it. The question was simple, but again, if you chose not to answer, that's up to you.

And no, I'm not trying to back you into a corner, and hope you will not end up there of your own accord.
Kenny, I am not going to do this with you. You simply want to tear down and I long to build up. Perhaps one day we can walk together in agreement but for right now, I think it best I will simply pass on your attempts to undermine the message God has asked me to share.

Blessings,

Gideon
 
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aiki

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There is nothing missing from the Gospel as the OP seems to think. And just that comment worries me as in we must have the OP in order to know what is missing from the gospel. Hate to say it but I still don't know what that is. :(

I have not heard Death to Self commonly included as a part of the Gospel. Especially these days, Matthew 16:24-25 is avoided like the plague by those urging people to faith in Christ. Inasmuch as this is so, Gideon is correct that the modern version of the Gospel is often deficient in its scope.

1)What exactly do you mean there by "on fire"?

I can't speak for Gideon, but the phrase "on fire" in reference to a believer's condition usually means something along the lines of "greatly excited or enthused about one's relationship with God" and/or "living in a radically obedient, totally Christ-centered way". You know: the opposite of spiritually apathetic and defeated.

You're assuming most here have not done as you say and are in the state you say they are.

Sadly, I must concur with Gideon that the identification and appropriation truths have largely disappeared from view in the modern Christian Church. And with their disappearance, vital elements in the believer's spiritual development have been lost. And so it is that when I look around at my brothers and sisters in the Lord, I see a huge number of them resigned to the sin>confession>sin>confession cycle, convinced that it is the normal Christian experience. Gideon is pointing out that this cycle is not the normal Christian life, though it is very common.

2) Since all through this I still don't know what it is you bring to us that most of us won't "accept", will you please give me a brief rundown of that? To be clear I'm talking about what you mention in the 2nd quoted paragraph of yours here earlier in this post, or your basic message of this thread...the short version, as much as you can anyway.

I can see very clearly what Gideon's points are. He hasn't been vague, though he has been a bit dramatic. He actually has put his main points forward very clearly:

1) The old you, the carnal you, the you we call self, is dead. Not dying. Not almost dead. It died when Jesus died. Like in D-E-A-D.

2) When Christ rose from the dead, so DID you. He made you a new creature. A ‘Christ IN you creature. You have been born again….. as in literally dead.


For scriptural ground for point one read: Romans 6:1-18; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 5:24; Galatians 6:14; Colossians 3:3.

For scriptural ground for point two read: 2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 7:4; Ephesians 2:7; Colossians 2:12; Colossians 3:1.

3) Also will you tell me what we need do more than simply try to be obedient to God after we accept Christ, you know the thing I mentioned earlier that you disagreed with me on as insufficient? I'm happy to be proven wrong but when you disagree without citing a reason, that does no one any good, and does not back up your claim.

Well, here's the problem with trying to be obedient:

Romans 7:18-19
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.


Paul recognized that within himself, from his own human resources, no consistently and spiritually good thing can come. Trying to be obedient leads inevitably to the same place: Doing what one knows one ought not to do. Why? Because such trying is to live by the strength of one's flesh, after the manner of the "old man," which cannot ever produce godliness (Romans 8:7-8). Like begets like, you see. A cat begets a cat, a dog begets a dog, and you can only beget more of you. To be a godly person requires God.

Galatians 3:1-3
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?


Paul rebuked the Galatian Christians for seeking to walk with God by fleshly, external means, like circumcision, rather than by the power of the Holy Spirit. Implicit in his words above is that a spiritual life must be lived by spiritual means, not by fleshly effort.

Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Paul here plainly states that the flesh is weak and cannot achieve perfect obedience to God's law. And so, God sent His Son, Jesus, to eradicate sin from the life of the believer through his atoning work on the cross of Calvary (Romans 6:6) and, by the indwelling, regenerating Spirit (Titus 3:5), enable every believer to live righteously. (Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13; Ephesians 3:16).

4) Have you eradicated all sin from your life?

Again, I can't speak for Gideon, but I can say that sin in my life has been on the decline for decades now. I am not the man I once was. Thank God! And as He leads me on, I will not be a year from now the man I am at the moment. Sin can - and ought to - become the exception rather than the rule in the life of a believer. It will never be utterly absent from the Christian person this side of the grave, but it's power is broken in their life, and they are always able, by faith, to live in the truth of Romans 6:1-2.
 
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Gideons300

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I have not heard Death to Self commonly included as a part of the Gospel. Especially these days, Matthew 16:24-25 is avoided like the plague by those urging people to faith in Christ. Inasmuch as this is so, Gideon is correct that the modern version of the Gospel is often deficient in its scope.



I can't speak for Gideon, but the phrase "on fire" in reference to a believer's condition usually means something along the lines of "greatly excited or enthused about one's relationship with God" and/or "living in a radically obedient, totally Christ-centered way". You know: the opposite of spiritually apathetic and defeated.



Sadly, I must concur with Gideon that the identification and appropriation truths have largely disappeared from view in the modern Christian Church. And with their disappearance, vital elements in the believer's spiritual development have been lost. And so it is that when I look around at my brothers and sisters in the Lord, I see a huge number of them resigned to the sin>confession>sin>confession cycle, convinced that it is the normal Christian experience. Gideon is pointing out that this cycle is not the normal Christian life, though it is very common.



I can see very clearly what Gideon's points are. He hasn't been vague, though he has been a bit dramatic. He actually has put his main points forward very clearly:

1) The old you, the carnal you, the you we call self, is dead. Not dying. Not almost dead. It died when Jesus died. Like in D-E-A-D.

2) When Christ rose from the dead, so DID you. He made you a new creature. A ‘Christ IN you creature. You have been born again….. as in literally dead.


For scriptural ground for point one read: Romans 6:1-18; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 5:24; Galatians 6:14; Colossians 3:3.

For scriptural ground for point two read: 2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 7:4; Ephesians 2:7; Colossians 2:12; Colossians 3:1.



Well, here's the problem with trying to be obedient:

Romans 7:18-19
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.


Paul recognized that within himself, from his own human resources, no consistently and spiritually good thing can come. Trying to be obedient leads inevitably to the same place: Doing what one knows one ought not to do. Why? Because such trying is to live by the strength of one's flesh, after the manner of the "old man," which cannot ever produce godliness (Romans 8:7-8). Like begets like, you see. A cat begets a cat, a dog begets a dog, and you can only beget more of you. To be a godly person requires God.

Galatians 3:1-3
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?


Paul rebuked the Galatian Christians for seeking to walk with God by fleshly, external means, like circumcision, rather than by the power of the Holy Spirit. Implicit in his words above is that a spiritual life must be lived by spiritual means, not by fleshly effort.

Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Paul here plainly states that the flesh is weak and cannot achieve perfect obedience to God's law. And so, God sent His Son, Jesus, to eradicate sin from the life of the believer through his atoning work on the cross of Calvary (Romans 6:6) and, by the indwelling, regenerating Spirit (Titus 3:5), enable every believer to live righteously. (Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13; Ephesians 3:16).



Again, I can't speak for Gideon, but I can say that sin in my life has been on the decline for decades now. I am not the man I once was. Thank God! And as He leads me on, I will not be a year from now the man I am at the moment. Sin can - and ought to - become the exception rather than the rule in the life of a believer. It will never be utterly absent from the Christian person this side of the grave, but it's power is broken in their life, and they are always able, by faith, to live in the truth of Romans 6:1-2.
Thank you my dear brother. That saved me a lot of typing. And to perhaps clarify the title of my OP, the gospel is not missing anything, but we as His church certainly are. And yet sadly, we are content to be healed only slightly, and are proud to declare that we have need of nothing.

How refreshing it is to hear the truth from you, my dear brother. Your way may not be as dramatic as mine, lol, but point for point, you were spot on. Blessings.

Gids
 
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Gideons300

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I have not heard Death to Self commonly included as a part of the Gospel. Especially these days, Matthew 16:24-25 is avoided like the plague by those urging people to faith in Christ. Inasmuch as this is so, Gideon is correct that the modern version of the Gospel is often deficient in its scope.



I can't speak for Gideon, but the phrase "on fire" in reference to a believer's condition usually means something along the lines of "greatly excited or enthused about one's relationship with God" and/or "living in a radically obedient, totally Christ-centered way". You know: the opposite of spiritually apathetic and defeated.



Sadly, I must concur with Gideon that the identification and appropriation truths have largely disappeared from view in the modern Christian Church. And with their disappearance, vital elements in the believer's spiritual development have been lost. And so it is that when I look around at my brothers and sisters in the Lord, I see a huge number of them resigned to the sin>confession>sin>confession cycle, convinced that it is the normal Christian experience. Gideon is pointing out that this cycle is not the normal Christian life, though it is very common.



I can see very clearly what Gideon's points are. He hasn't been vague, though he has been a bit dramatic. He actually has put his main points forward very clearly:

1) The old you, the carnal you, the you we call self, is dead. Not dying. Not almost dead. It died when Jesus died. Like in D-E-A-D.

2) When Christ rose from the dead, so DID you. He made you a new creature. A ‘Christ IN you creature. You have been born again….. as in literally dead.


For scriptural ground for point one read: Romans 6:1-18; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 5:24; Galatians 6:14; Colossians 3:3.

For scriptural ground for point two read: 2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 7:4; Ephesians 2:7; Colossians 2:12; Colossians 3:1.



Well, here's the problem with trying to be obedient:

Romans 7:18-19
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.


Paul recognized that within himself, from his own human resources, no consistently and spiritually good thing can come. Trying to be obedient leads inevitably to the same place: Doing what one knows one ought not to do. Why? Because such trying is to live by the strength of one's flesh, after the manner of the "old man," which cannot ever produce godliness (Romans 8:7-8). Like begets like, you see. A cat begets a cat, a dog begets a dog, and you can only beget more of you. To be a godly person requires God.

Galatians 3:1-3
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?


Paul rebuked the Galatian Christians for seeking to walk with God by fleshly, external means, like circumcision, rather than by the power of the Holy Spirit. Implicit in his words above is that a spiritual life must be lived by spiritual means, not by fleshly effort.

Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Paul here plainly states that the flesh is weak and cannot achieve perfect obedience to God's law. And so, God sent His Son, Jesus, to eradicate sin from the life of the believer through his atoning work on the cross of Calvary (Romans 6:6) and, by the indwelling, regenerating Spirit (Titus 3:5), enable every believer to live righteously. (Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13; Ephesians 3:16).



Again, I can't speak for Gideon, but I can say that sin in my life has been on the decline for decades now. I am not the man I once was. Thank God! And as He leads me on, I will not be a year from now the man I am at the moment. Sin can - and ought to - become the exception rather than the rule in the life of a believer. It will never be utterly absent from the Christian person this side of the grave, but it's power is broken in their life, and they are always able, by faith, to live in the truth of Romans 6:1-2.
What most do not yet understand is that we do not defeat sins from outside inward. That was the technique of the Pharisees. Jesus called them ‘whited sepulchers’, pretty (to them) on the outside, but inside? Dead men’s bones.

When we hold up our shields of faith that it is true that we are new creatures, we are recognizing that we are already pure and perfect on the inside. Thus we can abide in Him by faith and the ‘working out’ of that pureness proceeds. Fruits that were once dormant buds begin to appear and grow. The outside of us, that once looked a mess, slowly but surely reveals the beauty that was planted on us the day we came to Jesus. .Inside to outside!! Glory!

This is why Paul said what appears to be a contradiction. Fist he says that he is not yet perfect, and then immediately follows that up with the declaration that as many as be perfect be like minded. It only makes sense when we have put off our old nature by faith and clothed ourselves with our new nature.

So many what seems like contradictions are not at all. Paul’s faith alone and James faith plus works are in no way contradictory. I hope to tackle rhat conundrum soon.

Blessings,

Gideon
 
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Kenny'sID

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Again, I can't speak for Gideon, but I can say that sin in my life has been on the decline for decades now. I am not the man I once was. Thank God! And as He leads me on, I will not be a year from now the man I am at the moment. Sin can - and ought to - become the exception rather than the rule in the life of a believer. It will never be utterly absent from the Christian person this side of the grave, but it's power is broken in their life, and they are always able, by faith, to live in the truth of Romans 6:1-2.

Gideon was heading in a direction of eradicating sin, and never would comment on the question I asked. My point was, he was putting across, he had a way to do that, and he does not. And yes, I think all serious Christians sin much less than they did when they did before they let the old self die. My guess, the re4ason he didn't answer was, he knew sin cannot be eradicated, and that he was indicating it could, but we may never know for sure.

Well, here's the problem with trying to be obedient:

We are all aware of the problem of trying to be obedient, and we have been since we were a child. It's more fun to do what we want, and just like good parents manged to keep most of us on track because we chose to listen to them, either because they were good to us, or because of the threat of punishment, we can do the same with Gods rules. Obey or not, it's up to us. No need to over complicate an age old problem that we all know how to fix.

I feel that unnecessary complication of the scripture like some preachers do, only confuses some people. I don't even know what they are talking about half the time, and I've been doing this for a long time.

I can see very clearly what Gideon's points are. He hasn't been vague, though he has been a bit dramatic. He actually has put his main points forward very clearly:

Maybe I missed what his major point was because the build up made it look like something miraculous, a revaluation we'd never heard of. He presented it in the build up as if we were not aware of it, when fact is, all those things you mention he made clear, is very good teaching, but old news.

Sadly, I must concur with Gideon that the identification and appropriation truths have largely disappeared from view in the modern Christian Church.

You'll notice i said most "here" are aware of the truth, and never argued the condition of the rest of them. Yes, many are not aware of what's going on.

I have not heard Death to Self commonly included as a part of the Gospel.

Just to name a very few.

Romans 6:7
For he who has died is freed from sin

Romans 6:11
Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:24
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
*****************
The Gospel is missing nothing.

I think Gideon has a lot to share and hopefully we all learn something from what has been presented here over all, from both his message and the comments to his posts. :)
 
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Thank you all for your taking the time to read my posts. I pray as you continue reading, you will see what I am proposing as the missing piece of the gospel. That in itself will most likely offend some. I get that, I do. But ask yourself a question. “Am I experiencing the fulfillment of what God has promised those who follow Him? Am I victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil? Is my heart truly joyful, full of love for even my enemies? Am I walking as a stranger and pilgrim or is my life tied more to the things of this life? “ if you have to hesitate, then I pray you see that something is missing. Time alone will not fix it. Nor will study. Bible memorization. fasting. Service. Some ‘experience’. No, none is but a band-aid and our wound is festering.

What I am about to share is not some carefully woven blending of scriptures from various parts of the Bible, interpreted to fit my narrative. Neither is it my ‘opinion’, a conclusion of long study that will take someone halfway through seminary to grasp.

Some of you, when you first hear it, will say “That’s it? You are kidding. I knew that years ago.” Well guess what? So did I, lol. And Satan still had his foot on my neck.

What I am about to share here is not something you understand with your head. It is something seen with the heart, and the heart must be first come into a state of readiness to receive it. Hungry.

Again, let me be perfectly clear. 12 years ago, at my lowest, bound by inappropriate content and an angry judgmental spirit, longing to truly please God but out of options and more things to do in my attempts to walk with self truly crucified... 38 years of trying and miserably failing... our God appeared to me.... yes, yes, physically, and He spoke to me.... yes, audibly. That miraculous night, He shared with me what I am about to share with any who has ears to hear and finds themselves longing to be truly set free from trying to live a good Christian life in their own strength and failing.... and to actually live it with joy.

So with that in mind, before I tell you what God told me, I need to say something that will most likely rub some of you the wrong way. I do not mean it to. Many of you have written here that you are in basic agreement with what I have said concerning the state of the church at present. I so appreciate that. Some have proposed different things the church needs to do to be more effective. And there is much truth there.

But what is not seen is that it is ALL of us.. We ALL have been asleep. We all have been walking off the path called the highway of holiness. And victory has its beginning with just each one of us and Jesus. Before we can help others to awaken, we have to be awakened ourselves. I pray none assume since they have great zeal for the Lord, that surely, they do not need what I am about to share. You do. I do. We ALL do.

No, we ALL have been sleeping and unless each one of us comes before the Lord admitting that need, I fear that it will become a head knowledge thing, and I so pray you will see it as far, far more than that. It is nothing less than the key to the lock of walking as God has had planned for us for the last nineteen hundred years.

Will there be exceptions? Oh, I pray so. Some have already awakened and will bear witness with what I am about to make clear. To you, I covet your prayers.

Each one of us is tasked to get the beam out of our own eye, amen? And coming from one who had an entire lumber yard in his, lol, I can assure you it is imperative.

We often hear that verse, and think it is sort of a mandate to ‘mind our own spiritual business’, but it is not. It is a call from our Heavenly Father to first get free indeed ourselves so that we CAN go out and help others to obtain that same glorious freedom.

Do we see? If we do not possess it, we cannot help anyone else. Such as I have, give I you. And if I don’t have it, I can’t give it. Ah, but with it, (and it really is a Him), you will find it almost impossible to shut up.

One last thing before I share this ‘missing piece’ that activates the gospel IN US. I am nothing. I have no idea why God chose to miraculously reveal to me what I have now been sharing for 12 straight years. In my flesh, I am worse than all here, and that is no pious humility. It is the truth, to my shame.

This next move of God, this FINAL move of God, will not be man-centered. In times past, one man was greatly used and received adulation, and people flocked to hear him. No more. God will still, of course, use men, but He will share His glory with none, an$ once you understand with your heart what is being said, it will simply be impossible to even think of taking some credit for being ‘a great man of God’. This final awakening is going to be like a field of parched straw catching fire. Grass roots revival if you will.

I love what we are told about the new covenant. No one is going to have to tell you “Know ye the Lord, for ALL will know me, from the least to the greatest.” (and coincidently, in that order, lol).

Blessings,

Gideon

More to come. The best part! And if you know another who is a struggling believer, please ask them to read what is being shared.

Hi Gideon. So, when I was thinking yesterday about the "missing" piece that you were referring to, as I also fully believe the gospel to be complete by Itself like one of the posters pointed out, I came across Luke 8 last night. This passage below stands out vvv. Is this what you mean by "missing"? It seems this explains basically the underlying issue behind something missing.

Luke 8:10
And He (Jesus) said, "Unto you (the disciples who asked Him about the sower parable) it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand..."

BTW, this entire thread is an answer the Lord has been providing to me - in addition to messages I came across by Tim Conway of Grace Community Church and some Francis Chan (while I already listen to Paul Washer regularly even though I'm not a Calvinist). I had been praying differently for a while because I as a born-again believer saw flaws in myself that had been rooted in defeat, complacency, and comfort. And I know the gospel tells us to lose our lives for His sake. Modern Christianity has given me encouragement in a number of ways to keep being the way I am. But, a little time before and certainly after discovery of my "Christian" husband's affair and how pampered he was by the church that did not fully require him to show fruits of his repentance (as John the Baptist explained), I realized and said repeatedly statements like this: "Something is wrong among us." And I certainly meant myself as well because of my reaction in aftermath, my memory of how apathetic I was toward hurting people in the past, and how different we look from the red letters overall. In too many churches here in America, we're materialistic, comfortable, plush, stingy, cold, apathetic, and self-righteous nonetheless. A call for holiness gets branded as "legalistic", a term I often agree with when it identifies Pharisee attitudes but I also feel like gagging at its overuse every time obedience to Jesus' teachings comes into question.

A very major example of modern Christendom enabling spoiled attitudes that practically dismiss the true gospel on self-denial is the result of people hurting people and the church not really caring enough. For example, we watch adulterous leaders in the churches, give them a few weeks to sit out and then put them right back in the pulpit with no evidence of true change no matter how much such action reaffirms the skeptics who choose to stay far away from the church as a result. This is just an example.

Among us, there are a plethora of "Christian-like" ideals, authored by the believers (due to erroneous Bible interpretation or just making up our own standards) that wreck havoc our calling to live abide in Jesus. And I've been convicted about my part in it. So, lately, messages have been coming my way for my own correction, calling attention to such messages how ever I can (usually through blogs and books), and conveying to whomever when I speak on them or when I witness the gospel to others.

I'm so tired of the synthetic.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Think I got it. Yup...



Let me first ask each of you a question. We all suffer temptation in one or more areas of our lives, right? Temptation is not sin. It is the doorway to it. So….. how do we keep the door closed? Is it possible? Every time? Jesus promised us that we would not be tempted above our ability to resist. He even went further and promised us that He would never fail to make a way of escape, so that we may be able to bear it and not succumb to it, right? So what gives? There is a reason, and that is the crux of what we have all been missing.

We need to all understand. This is no small thing. In fact it is HUGE! Sure, we can be forgiven if we confess it to the Lord and truly repent, turning away from it, but here is what happens if we continue over and over again to find ourselves falling back into the sin we long to be free from.

Sin hardens our hearts. Our faith shrinks. Slowly but ever so surely, sins we long to be freed from become willful ones, as we begin to accept them as unavoidable. Christ dwells in our hearts by faith. We overcome the word, the flesh and the devil by faith. We are exhorted to grow in faith, to become established in faith. And none of this can happen if sin is still ruling us, even if those sins seem small. Listen, I beg you. There is no small sin.

God has told us His will for us is that we be sanctified fully, body, soul and Spirit. Let’s remember that He is NOT the God who reaps where He does not first sow. If He desires we walking in holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our lives, and it is not thorough our diligent self-effort, then there must be a way to see that accomplished in our lives, amen?

So, again, when you are tempted, what do you do to not give into it? And….. does it work? All the time? We both know the answer to that if we are brutally honest with ourselves.

You see, something is badly amiss. We serve a God who cannot lie. His promises are sure. Yet we have gutted them with our reasoning that we are only human. Was God not aware of that fact when He made the promise? LOL? Of course He was! And yet, He STILL promised to make us free indeed! Glory!

Somewhere there is a disconnect, amen? Let us nail this down. The gospel works, every single promise. And if we discover it is not doing so, we need to examine why this is so. The problem is not with God. We have missed something…. a key element that activates all the promises of God so that we can finally walk pleasing to Him, victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil. Our birthright as children of God is to walk as true overcomers, taking the promised land He has bought for us. No more unending wandering in circles in the wilderness. God is even now awakening us to what we have all been blinded to and trust me, it is flat out glorious and within reach of even the weakest among us. In truth, these are the ones who will see it first!

What God revealed to me in my miraculous visitation is the missing element I am referring to. It will sound simple…. to our heads. But understand, the solution must be grasped with our hearts. And to do that, we must finally admit that we are not walking in all he fullness God has promised us, and be found desperate to find the hinderance. Hunger for walking closer to Him, pleasing Him is absolutely indispensable. So, if you are one who longs for more and is tired of Satan stealing your lunch money, read on, for you are about to have your minds blown.

Ok, if you truly love the Lord in sincerity, here is a true statement. Well, TWO true statements.

1) The old you, the carnal you, the you we call self, is dead. Not dying. Not almost dead. It died when Jesus died. Like in D-E-A-D.

2) When Christ rose from the dead, so DID you. He made you a new creature. A ‘Christ IN you creature. You have been born again….. as in literally dead.

But here is the problem, and there is no other way to say it than to be blunt. We have accepted this theologically with our heads, but our hearts have not believed it for us, right here, right now, this very minute. And therein is the issue in a nutshell.

Why? Why when we are clearly told it to be true, do we not accept it as truth? Easy. We do not feel new. We do not see any outer changes. We look the same as we always have. But you see, deep in our core is the seed of our new nature. It is pure. It is perfect. But it has been hidden through unbelief deep in the soul of our hearts. Satan’s last stand. He knows it is a perfect seed, and contains the very life of God. But it has not germinated because unbelief has kept it but a seed. Thank God that time of deception is ending.

Regardless of what we have believed, or what we feel, or how we see ourselves, it matters not a whit. The truth is it who we now are…..new creatures?

So how do we get it to germinate? How do we go from being overcome to walking as overcomers? That is coming next!

Blessings,

Gideon
We are dead as we die daily and only then can we walk in the newness of life.

If we walk in darkness and say we are in the light we lie and do not the truth (1 John 1).

We are not in a legal fiction in our new life but a real spiritual new creation in Christ as we abide in him and he in us

2 Corinthians 4:10,12 “Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.”

Luke 9:23,24 “And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.”
 
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Gideons300

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We are dead as we die daily and only then can we walk in the newness of life.

If we walk in darkness and say we are in the light we lie and do not the truth (1 John 1).

We are not in a legal fiction in our new life but a real spiritual new creation in Christ as we abide in him and he in us

2 Corinthians 4:10,12 “Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.”

Luke 9:23,24 “And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.”
Thank you so much for writing. May I comment on your first point? You said “We are dead as we die daily and only then can we walk in newness of life.”

If we actually look at this verse in context where Paul says ‘I die daily.” we find he is not talking about death to self at all, but the many pitfalls that have daily befallen him as an apostle. He then lists those....shipwrecks, wild beasts, wild men. We have been taught that it means that we too must die daily. So, if we skip a day, are we alive again to us?

And how do we go about dying to self, or even denying self? When most hear that, it immediately brings up negative connotations, doesn’t it? Do we not allow ourselves to have dessert? Limit our TV and assign ourselves so many chapters to read? We talk about dying to self as something WE do, and that is not the truth.

What is the truth? We ARE already dead? The old us, our carnal nature died when Christ died. BUT, our enjoyment of that truth is dependent fully on our believing it to be a fact.

What is amazingly wonderful about this is, IF we do slip into sin after holding up our shield of faith, we are still dead. Our enjoyment of its blessings may be interrupted, but we are still dead!

We are told to yield ourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead! He does not want our old crummy nature. He wants faith in what His Son accomplished. That is what pleases Him and that is what allows the connection to flow between us.... the branches.... and Him.... the vine

Why? Because He dwells in our hearts by faith! Glory! Dying to self is as easy as confessing that it is so. We do not die when we are serious enough about it. We do not die when we deprive ourselves enough. We die when our spiritual eyes finally see that WE ARE ALREADY DEAD!

Why does it seem so hsrd, so elusive, so impossible? Because we are thinking it is something WE have to accomplish! What a joyous day when we realize that it is already done and that we can stop trying to do it. What is generally the last thing in us to die? Self effort.

I pray this helps.

Many blessings,

Gideon
 
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aiki

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The Gospel is missing nothing.

I agree: The Gospel is missing nothing. However, those who share/preach it often leave out very important parts of it - like Matthew 16:24-25 and the means to living it: Romans 6 and Romans 8:13.

My guess, the re4ason he didn't answer was, he knew sin cannot be eradicated, and that he was indicating it could, but we may never know for sure.

Well, this is the thing: The source of all our sin, Self (aka "the old man"), has been crucified with Christ and thus rendered powerless in the life of every genuinely born-again person. So, it is correct to say that, for the believer, Sin has been destroyed. And this is why Paul wrote:

Romans 6:2
2 ...How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?


Romans 6:7
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.


Romans 6:11
11 ...reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Romans 6:14
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you...


Romans 6:18
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.


The question I always hear when I present these verses to a new believer I'm discipling is, "How can these verses be true of me when I'm sinning all the time?!" They'll often also add, "I don't feel dead to sin! I feel strong impulses to sin a lot!" The new believer can get quite in knots about what to believe when it comes to the matter of death to Self. They're used to going with what they experience and feel, but doing so in this instance puts them at direct odds with the declaration of God's word. I often use the story of the pauper-millionaire to illustrate how one can be dead to sin and alive unto God and at the same time be feeling and behaving sinfully. You know, the story about the homeless guy in St. Louis who had inherited many millions from a distant uncle in England but didn't know it. A long search was made for this guy, but before he could be found by the executors of the rich uncle's will, the homeless man died, frozen to death in the winter snow. Though the truth about this man was that he was a millionaire, he lived as a pauper, scraping about in alleys and garbage cans for sustenance.

Christians do much the same thing, often. They are spiritual millionaires but live like spiritual paupers. They have been given a spiritual Promised Land in Christ but wander endlessly in the wilderness of ignorance, doubt and sin. Part of the believer's spiritual inheritance is their co-crucifixion with Christ and the freedom from sin that is accomplished through it. But they either don't know anything about Romans 6, or they are so used to going with what they feel and experience that they don't stand by faith on the truths of Romans 6 and so begin to discover in their daily, practical experience that they are true.

Essentially, the Christian life is bringing into my daily condition those things that are true of me in my spiritual position in Christ. I am dead to sin but I have to learn to live out this fact in my life. I have to appropriate by faith (2 Corinthians 5:7) the "riches" that are mine in Christ - sort of like the pauper must do on discovering he is a millionaire by going down to the bank and withdrawing money from his account. He'll only do this if he first knows he's a millionaire and then believes he can make a withdrawal on his newfound wealth, right? It's the same for me as a Christian. It's not enough to know I'm "rich" in Christ; I have to take by faith those riches and by faith live in the light and power of them every day. Until I do, I'll live like a spiritual pauper, endlessly mired in the garbage cans and alleys of sin, scraping about in the muck, thinking it is all there is to the Christian life.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Well, this is the thing: The source of all our sin, Self (aka "the old man"), has been crucified with Christ and thus rendered powerless in the life of every genuinely born-again person. So, it is correct to say that, for the believer, Sin has been destroyed. And this is why Paul wrote:

Romans 6:2
2 ...How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?


Romans 6:7
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.


Romans 6:11
11 ...reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Romans 6:14
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you...


Romans 6:18
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Then you are saying he was wrong or right in claiming he could show us how sin could be eradicated?

Sin no longer has dominion over us, would be the best way to put it, but it will never be eradicated.
 
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Gideons300

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Then you are saying he was wrong or right in claiming he could show us how sin could be eradicated?

Sin no longer has dominion over us, would be the best way to put it, but it will never be eradicated.
Would you please share the quote from the post you are referring to? That way, in context, I will be glad to try to explain it. Thanks Kenny.

Gids
 
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Gottservant

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I think I see a way to clarify, the foregoing.

You are essentially or not, basically talking about "doing Justice to Jesus".

First, we must deliberately "prefer" not to sin (that is consider the relationship between the soul and the body that sin affects) - this brings our conscience into agreement with our flesh.

Second, we must praise God that our preference not to sin, is something He upholds in Heaven or in some way make the connection with the Justice we are trying to do more apparent (to both God and us). *this is about as far as I think the OP has got, which is commendable in and of itself - a point the OP is free to make instead of me, if you would rather stop there*

Third, we need to look at how we are holding that preference and that praise together - in other words, we need to look at the arm holding the shield of faith, or something God created or something God has said, something, anything that will remind us of the strength we were driven by God to have faith in - for me, I am really encouraged when I see the strength behind the scenes doing the work (the main reason I have persisted with this thread from the beginning).

What we choose to cut off and let die, from the point that we understand which way it was that we chose to do righteousness to our faith,, we cut off and let die for eternity - this is a mystery in the end, if you can grasp it, that God seals us off in Heaven, with His seal of approval, that we no more return to this world or the way of it once we reach Heaven (in principle). Thus our root in heaven is able to grow.

We are not able to grow completely in Heaven yet, but we are certainly remiss of our calling if we do not at least a little consistently cut off the old man in this life (sic!).
 
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Gottservant

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Something it might help to grasp:

God's design is such that it is impossible to do it, with one hundred percent justice.

Justice is different from perfecting something - I am not saying something cannot be perfected.

I am saying once perfected, it is next to impossible to do what is already perfected the justice you might have imagined was possible, before you perfected it.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Would you please share the quote from the post you are referring to? That way, in context, I will be glad to try to explain it. Thanks Kenny.

Gids

I could go back and search for it, but then you'd probably claim you didn't say that, not exactly, then I'd answer, you implied it, that is if you didn't say it out right (I don't remember) and it's just not going to do anyone any good to nit pick or waste the time looking it up.

Is the real, or one of the reasons you want the quote, is to claim, as I mentioned, you didn't say it?
 
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Gideons300

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I could go back and search for it, but then you'd probably claim you didn't say that, not exactly, then I'd answer, you implied it, that is if you didn't say it out right (I don't remember) and it's just not going to do anyone any good to nit pick or waste the time looking it up.

Is the real, or one of the reasons you want the quote, is to claim, as I mentioned, you didn't say it?
Brother, why are you so determined to somehow undermine what should be good news? First I have clarified that I eradicate nothing. I have not overcome one sin. In the promises of the gospel, the weight of seeing change, of freeing us from the power of darkness, of delivering us from evil, of keeping us from falling, of causing us to will and to do of His offs pleasure, is on HIS shoulders.

The hardest thing about entering into His promises is finally accepting that we have NO ability to stop sinning. We, in our old nature ARE sin.

As to seeing sin eradicated, I have been clear that willful sin can.... and must be overcome. All of it. Here I am talking about sin that the Spirit of God has convicted us of, chastened us over, and yet we still choose to do it, thinking that grace will somehow cover us. It will not.

If that puts a man on the wrong side of judgment, he can either continue, refusing to budge or he can try as hard as he can to stop.... and fail. That is the crisis point of which I have spoken.

When we finally see that we have need of a grace that not only forgives, but also teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live soberly, righteously and justly, we are finally prepared to put off our old impotent nature, and to put on the brand new nature Jesus bought for us.

So, are you disputing that willful sin is somehow still ok with God, or somehow, by supreme effort or by the power of God, it must be eradicated?

Kenny, again, it seems you are trying to paint me as saying that I am somehow espousing sinless perfectionism. I am not, and I can make it no clearer. At the same time, however, as a man continues to abide in Him, and fruits of the Sprit begin to sprout and grow, and he truly becomes established in the faith of who he is in Christ, he will discover that sin.... all sin.... is repulsive.

We are still housed in fleshly bodies, but we no longer have fleshly spirits. We are new. Our job is not to “clean up” our old nature. It is impossible. Our job is to recognize that impossibility and then to seek God as to how to get rid of it. There is a way.... and it works! But until a man or woman is desperate enough, until he or she finally hates his old nature and the sin fountain that it is, they are not yet ready to ONLY believe.

Blessings,

Gideon
 
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