The Free Will of Pharaoh--- Exodus---Did he have a choice?

redleghunter · Feb 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Romans 9 says Pharaoh was a vessel made for destruction. Personally I believe God had foreseen that Pharaoh would not repent so He used Pharaoh to show His might and glory. I don’t believe God would do such a thing with a person who would’ve otherwise repented.

Your point is God had foreknowledge of what Pharaoh would act and then decided to harden him?

redleghunter · Feb 6, 2019

roman2819 said:
Too many of us read the Scripture factually. But there are times to be factual and literal, and there are verses that are not meant to be taken literally. Eg: “If someone slap you on right cheek, turn your left too” is not literal.

Is done hardening of Pharoah one of these instances?

redleghunter · Feb 6, 2019

FutureAndAHope said:
God uses some people to fulfil his grand purpose. If they are good, he has mercy on them, if they are evil he hardens them. The ones He uses for evil purposes, like Pharoah, are people who have resisted his drawing, He "has endured [these] with much patience" the vessels of wrath.

The Apostle Paul tells us in Romans 3 there are none righteous no not one. That we are all condemned before a Holy God.

So how are there good who merit God’s Mercy?

gordonhooker · Feb 6, 2019

JackRT said:
God hardening pharaoh's heart may very well be a metaphorical because, if factual, it makes God to blame for the whole thing. On the other hand, the Exodus, is looking more and more like a tribal mythology.

That is a great response Jack - I find the response of some of the literalist in here quite interesting from time to time. I asked a similar question of my parish priest when I was about 11 years old, his response was pretty much the same as yours.

redleghunter · Feb 6, 2019

David Cabrera said:
The "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy" comes from Exodus 33:19 which talks about God allowing some Israelites to live and others to die, in no way it talks about salvation or predestination.

Yet Paul correlates Pharaoh with this statement and other examples too.

David Cabrera said:
The whole thing about the vessel is based in Jeremiah 18 which talks about God deciding to destroy the Kingdom of Judah for its apostasy.
It seems like someone else is the one who misinterprets Paul's interpretation.

Once again Paul in his argument correlates the OT passage. He does so to explain how a partial hardening of Israel has occurred.

Cement · Feb 6, 2019

Pharaoh's heart was in Gods hands up until he let Moses go after the last Plague was finished and he freed the Israelite's. Afterword he became very bitter of the ordeal and decided to chase Moses down. It was not Gods original intent on destroying Pharaoh in the Red Sea that was his(Pharaoh) choice alone.

Oldmantook · Feb 7, 2019

redleghunter said:
In Exodus chapter 3 Moses is confronted by YHWH and told the following:

Exodus 3: NASB
17“So I said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, to a land flowing with milk and honey.”’ 18“They will pay heed to what you say; and you with the elders of Israel will come to the king of Egypt and you will say to him, ‘The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. So now, please, let us go a three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.’ 19“But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. 20“So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. 21“I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. 22“But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.”

This demonstrates Israel will be let go but the king of Egypt (Pharaoh) would not permit such except under compulsion. Seems Pharaoh is going to have a 'battle of wills' with YHWH and lose. This stated well before the events occur. Stated again in chapter 6:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” (Exodus 6:1)

Continuing in Exodus...

Exodus 7: NASB
1Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2“You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. 3“But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4“When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments. 5“The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the sons of Israel from their midst.” 6So Moses and Aaron did it; as the LORD commanded them, thus they did. 7Moses was eighty years old and Aaron eighty-three, when they spoke to Pharaoh.

Here we see YHWH will harden Pharaoh's heart so that God's signs and wonders will multiple in the land thus glorifying God. At this point, we see the compulsion mentioned in chapters 3 and 6 is accomplished by God hardening Pharaoh's heart. This continues for each plague brought upon by God on the land of Egypt:

Exodus 8: NASB
16Then the LORD said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the earth, that it may become gnats through all the land of Egypt.’” 17They did so; and Aaron stretched out his hand with his staff, and struck the dust of the earth, and there were gnats on man and beast. All the dust of the earth became gnats through all the land of Egypt. 18The magicians tried with their secret arts to bring forth gnats, but they could not; so there were gnats on man and beast. 19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Mission accomplished, right? God said Pharaoh would not let the people go without compulsion, God said He would harden Pharaoh's heart and we see above he acted as such as his heart was hardened.

So the question is what kind of free will did Pharaoh exercise during the deliverance of Israel by God chapters of the book of Exodus?

If one wants to answer this a different way...Did Pharaoh choose to do what he did?

Western thinking is linear thus we tend to see the situation with Pharaoh and God as either one or the other. Hebrew thinking is block oriented which can accommodate both man's will and God's sovereignty thus whether Pharaoh exercised his free will is not even an issue for the Hebrew mindset.

gordonhooker · Feb 7, 2019

Cement said:
Pharaoh's heart was in Gods hands up until he let Moses go after the last Plague was finished and he freed the Israelite's. Afterword he became very bitter of the ordeal and decided to chase Moses down. It was not Gods original intent on destroying Pharaoh in the Red Sea that was his(Pharaoh) choice alone.

You may want read Exodus 14:1-4 and you will see that scripture does say God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

Exodus 14:1–4 (NRSV): 14 Then the Lord said to Moses: 2 Tell the Israelites to turn back and camp in front of Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, in front of Baal-zephon; you shall camp opposite it, by the sea. 3 Pharaoh will say of the Israelites, ‘They are wandering aimlessly in the land; the wilderness has closed in on them.’ 4 I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them, so that I will gain glory for myself over Pharaoh and all his army; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. And they did so.

Cement · Feb 7, 2019

gordonhooker said:
You may want read Exodus 14:1-4 and you will see that scripture does say God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

Exodus 14:1–4 (NRSV): 14 Then the Lord said to Moses: 2 Tell the Israelites to turn back and camp in front of Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, in front of Baal-zephon; you shall camp opposite it, by the sea. 3 Pharaoh will say of the Israelites, ‘They are wandering aimlessly in the land; the wilderness has closed in on them.’ 4 I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them, so that I will gain glory for myself over Pharaoh and all his army; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. And they did so.

I have a question for you. Doesn't God already have all the Glory? What more Glory is there then being God? I think none.

gordonhooker · Feb 7, 2019

Cement said:
I have a question for you. Doesn't God already have all the Glory? What more Glory is there then being God? I think none.

Exactly, but I was responding to your post where you said God didn’t harden pharaoh’s heart which was not the case according to scripture.

Radagast · Feb 7, 2019

redleghunter said:
If one wants to answer this a different way...Did Pharaoh choose to do what he did?

Yes, in the sense that he had compatibilist free will.

No, in the sense that he did not have libertarian free will.

Radagast · Feb 7, 2019

Oldmantook said:
Western thinking is linear thus we tend to see the situation with Pharaoh and God as either one or the other. Hebrew thinking is block oriented

Rubbish! There's no such thing as "block oriented."

Oldmantook said:
which can accommodate both man's will and God's sovereignty

All theology on this topic involves combining some view of man's free will with some view of God's sovereignty. Personally, I think Calvinism gets it right, biblically speaking, but everybody else (apart from the people who reject God's sovereignty) are trying to get it right too.

Radagast · Feb 7, 2019

Cement said:
It was not Gods original intent on destroying Pharaoh in the Red Sea

And this is revealed where?

Cement · Feb 7, 2019

Radagast said:
And this is revealed where?

I stand corrected.

royal priest · Feb 7, 2019

FutureAndAHope said:
God uses some people to fulfil his grand purpose. If they are good, he has mercy on them, if they are evil he hardens them. The ones He uses for evil purposes, like Pharoah, are people who have resisted his drawing, He "has endured [these] with much patience" the vessels of wrath.

This is not a sound conclusion of Paul's argument, 'It is not of him who wills or runs, but of God who has mercy'.
Paul argues that God determines the recipients of His mercy before they even have an opportunity to will or run. Verses 11-13:
before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated"

Hammster · Feb 7, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Romans 9 says Pharaoh was a vessel made for destruction. Personally I believe God had foreseen that Pharaoh would not repent so He used Pharaoh to show His might and glory. I don’t believe God would do such a thing with a person who would’ve otherwise repented.

I guess it’s good for not only Israel, but for God’s plan, that He got lucky in that Pharaoh acted the way he did. Otherwise, God’s plan of redemption would have went right out the window.

Hammster · Feb 7, 2019

Cement said:
Pharaoh's heart was in Gods hands up until he let Moses go after the last Plague was finished and he freed the Israelite's. Afterword he became very bitter of the ordeal and decided to chase Moses down. It was not Gods original intent on destroying Pharaoh in the Red Sea that was his(Pharaoh) choice alone.

What was God’s intent? How would the Passover occur otherwise?

Hazelelponi · Feb 7, 2019

JackRT said:
So you disagree with the Bible and God didn't really harden his heart.

No. I meant what I said.

If we want to understand a concept it behooves us to look elsewhere in scripture for the definition.

Scripture interprets scripture... so that's what I do.

If I don't understand something I look for the definition in scripture. It often takes a couple of instances of a concepts use to understand it, but I imagine that is why God explains to us the same things several times - so we can see various concepts from all sides.

FutureAndAHope · Feb 7, 2019

redleghunter said:
The Apostle Paul tells us in Romans 3 there are none righteous no not one. That we are all condemned before a Holy God.

So how are there good who merit God’s Mercy?

God is good, and he likes to think the best of us. As the bible says "Love hopes all things", God see our fallen state but has mercy on us. We are not perfectly good, for "none are good but God", yet there are those who are justified by virtue of their acceptance of God's mercy. And those who are damned for refusing it.

2Th 2:10-12 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

FutureAndAHope · Feb 7, 2019

royal priest said:
This is not a sound conclusion of Paul's argument, 'It is not of him who wills or runs, but of God who has mercy'.
Paul argues that God determines the recipients of His mercy before they even have an opportunity to will or run. Verses 11-13:
before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated"

This is election for God's plan. Not election for salvation. As we see from the following verse it is our choices that determine our salvation. God's election ensures that His plans will not fail. God may determine who will serve who, who will carry out His purpose. But God does not determine who will be a sinner and who will not.

2Th 2:10-12 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The Free Will of Pharaoh--- Exodus---Did he have a choice?

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