Debate-For MJ's Only The rapture - what happens, and when?

visionary · Feb 3, 2019

gadar perets said:
I was thinking Yeshua himself fulfills the wave sheaf since he is the firstfruit, but I suppose it is possible that those resurrected in Matthew 27 could fulfill it.

We know He is before His Father, but are those who were resurrected that day, just going to lay down and die again. I thought you only die once then the resurrection.

gadar perets · Feb 3, 2019

visionary said:
We know He is before His Father, but are those who were resurrected that day, just going to lay down and die again. I thought you only die once then the resurrection.

I doubt they died again. However, Lazarus did. The thing about it is, anyone who was resurrected prior to Yeshua being resurrected was not resurrected unto eternal life. Yeshua had to be the firstborn from the dead. Since he resurrected before those in Matthew 27, they could be resurrected unto eternal life.

visionary · Feb 3, 2019

gadar perets said:
I doubt they died again. However, Lazarus did. The thing about it is, anyone who was resurrected prior to Yeshua being resurrected was not resurrected unto eternal life. Yeshua had to be the firstborn from the dead. Since he resurrected before those in Matthew 27, they could be resurrected unto eternal life.

How would you like to be one of those who is resurrected just to turn around and die again, waiting for THE RESURRECTION.

gadar perets · Feb 3, 2019

Mercy74 said:
Where is it written that they went to heaven? Revelation pertains to a vision. Again they went into the city. They "united together with those that were alive in the city" .

Where does it say they died again? I know I am assuming they resurrected unto eternal life and ascended to heaven, but we are not told they didn't. The vision of the 24 elders was fulfilled prior to any seals being opened. They are men that were resurrected and are now in heaven. How did they get there prior to the resurrection at the last trump (the 7th trumpet of Revelation)?

gadar perets · Feb 3, 2019

visionary said:
How would you like to be one of those who is resurrected just to turn around and die again, waiting for THE RESURRECTION.

You should be posting that for Mercy74, not me.

visionary · Feb 3, 2019

gadar perets said:
Where does it say they died again? I know I am assuming they resurrected unto eternal life and ascended to heaven, but we are not told they didn't. The vision of the 24 elders was fulfilled prior to any seals being opened. They are men that were resurrected and are now in heaven. How did they get there prior to the resurrection at the last trump (the 7th trumpet of Revelation)?

That makes sense to me too

Mercy74 · Feb 3, 2019

gadar perets said:
Where does it say they died again? I know I am assuming they resurrected unto eternal life and ascended to heaven, but we are not told they didn't. The vision of the 24 elders was fulfilled prior to any seals being opened. They are men that were resurrected and are now in heaven. How did they get there prior to the resurrection at the last trump (the 7th trumpet of Revelation)?

It is appointed for a man to die once, after this the judgment (Hebrews 9:27). I never said any man die more than once, please be careful with my words. We walk by faith and not by sight or vision (2 Corinthians 5:7) 1Thessalonians 4 :17 is about being joined together with those saints that are DEAD in Christ, this occurred after the graves were opened because of the earthquake (Matthew 27:52-53). I am glad you admitted that you assumed they ascended into heaven.

Mercy74 · Feb 3, 2019

gadar perets said:
I doubt they died again. However, Lazarus did. The thing about it is, anyone who was resurrected prior to Yeshua being resurrected was not resurrected unto eternal life. Yeshua had to be the firstborn from the dead. Since he resurrected before those in Matthew 27, they could be resurrected unto eternal life.

Where is it written, Lazarus died more than once? The Pharisees wanted to kill Lazarus , John 12:9-11. They apparently we're unsuccessful. Judas conspired only against Yeshua for payment.

gadar perets · Feb 4, 2019

Mercy74 said:
It is appointed for a man to die once, after this the judgment (Hebrews 9:27). I never said any man die more than once, please be careful with my words. We walk by faith and not by sight or vision (2 Corinthians 5:7) 1Thessalonians 4 :17 is about being joined together with those saints that are DEAD in Christ, this occurred after the graves were opened because of the earthquake (Matthew 27:52-53). I am glad you admitted that you assumed they ascended into heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 has nothing to do with Matthew 27:52-53. The events take place hundreds, if not thousands, of years apart. Are you suggesting that those resurrected in Matthew 27 are still alive on earth?

gadar perets · Feb 4, 2019

Mercy74 said:
Where is it written, Lazarus died more than once? The Pharisees wanted to kill Lazarus , John 12:9-11. They apparently we're unsuccessful. Judas conspired only against Yeshua for payment.

Again, are you suggesting that Lazarus is still alive on earth somewhere?

Mercy74 · Feb 4, 2019

gadar perets said:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 has nothing to do with Matthew 27:52-53. The events take place hundreds, if not thousands, of years apart. Are you suggesting that those resurrected in Matthew 27 are still alive on earth?

You have made many assumptions built on the foundation of presumption. I Thessalonians 4 pertain to the words of Yeshua, verse 15. Paul is speaking about those events that already occurred, his premise "Yeshua and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:2). You fail to understand the words of Paul like many, Paul seeks the know Yeshua and the power of his resurrection (Philippians 3:10).

gadar perets · Feb 4, 2019

You didn't answer my questions. Are you saying the saints of old resurrected in Matthew 27 and Lazarus are still alive today and never died?

Also, your last post brings up new questions. Are you saying the resurrection of 1 Thessalonians 4 has already occurred? How am I misunderstanding Paul?

Mercy74 · Feb 5, 2019

gadar perets said:
You didn't answer my questions. Are you saying the saints of old resurrected in Matthew 27 and Lazarus are still alive today and never died?

Also, your last post brings up new questions. Are you saying the resurrection of 1 Thessalonians 4 has already occurred? How am I misunderstanding Paul?

Your question sounds like the Saducees questioning for Yeshua, they truly did not believe in the resurrection (Matthew 22:23-28). How did Yeshua answer them? At the resurrection people neither marry nor are they given in marriage, they will be like the angels in heaven. Do the angels in heaven die? My dear friend, we are told some have entertained angels unaware (Hebrews 13:2).

gadar perets · Feb 6, 2019

Mercy74 said:
Your question sounds like the Saducees questioning for Yeshua, they truly did not believe in the resurrection (Matthew 22:23-28). How did Yeshua answer them? At the resurrection people neither marry nor are they given in marriage, they will be like the angels in heaven. Do the angels in heaven die? My dear friend, we are told some have entertained angels unaware (Hebrews 13:2).

We are not discussing the validity of the Resurrection. We're discussing your statement that after certain people were resurrected, they did not die. If I have misunderstood you, then-state more clearly what you meant. If you do believe those people never died again and are still alive, then show us some sort of scriptural proof.
Angels were never resurrected. They were created to not die. Once believers in Messiah Yeshua are resurrected from the dead unto eternal life at the sound of the last trumpet, then they too will no longer die. But anyone resurrected prior to Yeshua resurrecting had to die again. Otherwise Yeshua would not be the firstborn from the dead.

Mercy74 · Feb 6, 2019

gadar perets said:
We are not discussing the validity of the Resurrection. We're discussing your statement that after certain people were resurrected, they did not die. If I have misunderstood you, then-state more clearly what you meant. If you do believe those people never died again and are still alive, then show us some sort of scriptural proof.
Angels were never resurrected. They were created to not die. Once believers in Messiah Yeshua are resurrected from the dead unto eternal life at the sound of the last trumpet, then they too will no longer die. But anyone resurrected prior to Yeshua resurrecting had to die again. Otherwise Yeshua would not be the firstborn from the dead.

Did you read any of the scriptures I provided? You must not contradict scripture with your assertions.

gadar perets · Feb 6, 2019

Mercy74 said:
Did you read any of the scriptures I provided? You must not contradict scripture with your assertions.

Of course I read them. the Matthew reference teaches there is a resurrection. I agree. The Hebrews verse teach us that we might entertain angels without knowing it. I agree. What did I write that contradicts those verses? The problem is, you did not read my words, nor seek to understand them.

Mercy74 · Feb 6, 2019

gadar perets said:
Of course I read them. the Matthew reference teaches there is a resurrection. I agree. The Hebrews verse teach us that we might entertain angels without knowing it. I agree. What did I write that contradicts those verses? The problem is, you did not read my words, nor seek to understand them.

Pleaae read Hebrews 9:27.

gadar perets · Feb 6, 2019

Mercy74 said:
Pleaae read Hebrews 9:27.

Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this comes judgment;

This verse teaches us that every person must physically die once. It does not teach a person cannot die twice. The natural order YHWH put in motion is that every human being will die a physical death. However, in Lazarus' case, for example, YHWH broke the natural order by resurrecting him. That is the nature of miracles. Therefore, Lazarus could die again to put things back in their natural order. He died again so he could later be resurrected unto eternal life through faith.

What happens to all unbelievers? Do they all die a physical death? Yes. Will they be resurrected and judged? Yes. Since they are not resurrected unto eternal life to then be judged, they are simply resurrected, but not unto eternal life. Once they are judged guilty they will die a second physical death in the lake of fire (the second death). Therefore, Hebrews 9:27 only refers to the first physical death prior to judgment day.

Mercy74 · Feb 6, 2019

gadar perets said:
Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this comes judgment;

This verse teaches us that every person must physically die once. It does not teach a person cannot die twice. The natural order YHWH put in motion is that every human being will die a physical death. However, in Lazarus' case, for example, YHWH broke the natural order by resurrecting him. That is the nature of miracles. Therefore, Lazarus could die again to put things back in their natural order. He died again so he could later be resurrected unto eternal life through faith.

What happens to all unbelievers? Do they all die a physical death? Yes. Will they be resurrected and judged? Yes. Since they are not resurrected unto eternal life to then be judged, they are simply resurrected, but not unto eternal life. Once they are judged guilty they will die a second physical death in the lake of fire (the second death). Therefore, Hebrews 9:27 only refers to the first physical death prior to judgment day.

You must listen to Hebrews 9:27 and obey it in your understanding. The latter does not negate the former. The wages of sin is death, the payment for sin is death. Do you get paid twice for the same sin? The second death pertains to judgment for an autumn tree (uprooted). The tree was already DEAD, it does not die again (Jude 1:12). You love using imagery or "clever visions" to explain foundational truths without establishing the truth. Therefore your house or tabernacle is built on sand. You must build your dwelling place on a solid rock. Yeshua explains this very simple truth in a parable concerning the fig tree that may be uprooted (John 13:6-8). Every tree that does not bear fruit must be cut down and thrown in the fire, second death or judgment ( Matthew 7:19).

Mercy74 · Feb 6, 2019

gadar perets said:
Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this comes judgment;

This verse teaches us that every person must physically die once. It does not teach a person cannot die twice. The natural order YHWH put in motion is that every human being will die a physical death. However, in Lazarus' case, for example, YHWH broke the natural order by resurrecting him. That is the nature of miracles. Therefore, Lazarus could die again to put things back in their natural order. He died again so he could later be resurrected unto eternal life through faith.

What happens to all unbelievers? Do they all die a physical death? Yes. Will they be resurrected and judged? Yes. Since they are not resurrected unto eternal life to then be judged, they are simply resurrected, but not unto eternal life. Once they are judged guilty they will die a second physical death in the lake of fire (the second death). Therefore, Hebrews 9:27 only refers to the first physical death prior to judgment day.

Hebrews 11:5 and John 11:26

Debate-For MJ's Only The rapture - what happens, and when?

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