Is a 3rd future Temple needed to fulfill Bible prophecy?

Choose Wisely · Feb 6, 2019

claninja said:
The current state of Israel has not been in exile for the last 70 years: different than Ezra 3

the current state of Israel built and altar and had it inaugurated in December of 2014. The foundation for the temple was not built a couple of months later: Different than ezra 3

Still not following your logic.

There was no sacrifice that I'm aware of in 2014. I'm not sure what exactly was put in the fire recently.

claninja said:
The branch is Jesus

Sorry, that went over your head.

claninja said:
There is no scripture in the entire Bible that specifically states the church/believers will be "raptured" prior to the tribulation. There is, however, scripture that states to "flee" to mountains when the tribulation occurs.

Matthew 24:15-21 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak. How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

claninja said:
How do they "escape all these things" if Jesus tells them they will experience them?

The only thing Jesus tells them to escape is the tribulation on Jerusalem.

Luke 21:20-21 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city

Jesus is telling those in Jerusalem to flee to the mountains. Those that flee will be the remnant that goes through the tribulation.

The rest of the believers in the world have a change to escape all the things that are going to come to pass during the wrath of God.
Luke 21
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

claninja said:
Where does it say that?

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

claninja said:
While faithful servant does not know when he master returns, he is not surprised at the return for he knew it would happened and remained ready.

Matthew 24:46-47 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the others their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

But if that same servant was wicked and wasn't ready for the return, he would be surprised when the master returned.

Matthew 24:48-50 But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day he does not anticipate and at an hour he does not expect

Thus it is very clear, that those who are faithful and always ready are not surprised that the master will return. And those that are wicked and not ready are surprised when the master returns.

Matt 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

claninja said:
So in other words, even though in post 182, you used 1 Thessalonians 4 as evidence for a pre trib rapture, you can't actually show us where in 1 thessalonians 4 it specifically mentions a rapture prior to the tribulation.

I know there are 3 harvest feasts and I know that no harvest has occurred. I also know that Noah is in the ark 7 days BEFORE the flood......and the ark doors are closed when Noah and his family enter. I also know that the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. I also know that God declares the end from the beginning. There are just countless scriptures that point to a pre trib rapture of the Gentiles and a prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes.

claninja said:
Jesus mentions more false prophets during the great tribulation

Matthew 24:21-25 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand

There is a clear contradiction in this, which you have not addressed, on one hand Jesus says "you" will hear of wars and rumors of war, see to it that no one deceives "you", "you" will be persecuted. But on the other hand, Jesus states pray that "you" may have the strength to escape "all these things". So how do we reconcile this?

No contradiction, two different circumstances. Those that are in Jerusalem are instructed to flee when they see the abomination of desolation. They are the remnant that goes through the wrath of God in a place of protection........wings of an eagle.

Those that are worthy to escape......escape ALL THE THINGS that will come to pass.....the tribulation. That's one of the many reasons there will be a pretribulation rapture. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

And then God deals with the 12 tribes. The 144,000 first fruits are a guarantee of a harvest, therefore the harvest is the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. The very day Lot leaves Sodom, destruction comes. That is immediately after the tribulation of those days the wrath of God comes......see matt 24 and rev 6 as previously posted.

claninja said:
Additionally, it's interesting that Jesus states all these things are "about to" take place.
Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Again......get a proper translation and you won't be so confused.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

BABerean2 · Feb 7, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
Jesus is telling those in Jerusalem to flee to the mountains. Those that flee will be the remnant that goes through the tribulation.

Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

Luk 19:41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.
Luk 19:43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side,
Luk 19:44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation."

......................................

From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "

Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.

The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.

Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.

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mkgal1 · Feb 7, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Could you point out Judea for me on a modern-day map?

claninja · Feb 7, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
There was no sacrifice that I'm aware of in 2014. I'm not sure what exactly was put in the fire recently.

Again, still not following your logic as to why you believe the temple will be built in 1-2 years based on ezra 3, as nothing in Ezra 3 matches up with the current situation.

Choose Wisely said:
Sorry, that went over your head.

Do you believe Jesus is the branch? If so, do you believe Jesus builds the temple?

Zechariah 6:12 And you are to tell him that this is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘Behold, a man whose name is the Branch, and He will branch out from His place and build the temple of the LORD.

Choose Wisely said:
then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Correct, Jesus said this.

Now can you provide even 1 scripture that specifically states believers will be "raptured (harpazo)" prior to the tribulation?

Choose Wisely said:
Jesus is telling those in Jerusalem to flee to the mountains.

I agree, Jesus said that, as scripture specifically states that:

Matthew 24:16-18 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.

Choose Wisely said:
Those that flee will be the remnant that goes through the tribulation.

Choose Wisely said:
No contradiction, two different circumstances.

Meaning, the tribulation is different than the signs (wars, famines, persecution, false prophets) leading up to the tribulation?

If so I agree, because the disciples were specifically told that would see and possibly experience some of the signs, but that they were to flee Jerusalem when tribulation occurred.

Choose Wisely said:
The rest of the believers in the world have a change to escape all the things that are going to come to pass during the wrath of God.
Luke 21
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
an.

Luke 21:35 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the all earth (ge)

Luke 21:35 (ylt) for as a snare it shall come on all those dwelling on the face of all the land (ge)

The greek word for ge doesn't necissarily always mean the planet earth as a whole. It can mean the land or the soil. Considering the context is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the signs leading up to it, I would argue "land" would be a better interpretation.

Luke 4:3 Getting into one of the boats, which was Simon’s, he asked him to put out a little from the land (ge). And he sat down and taught the people from the boat.

Mark 6:47 when evening came, the boat was out on the sea, and he was alone on the land (ge)

Mark 4:5 seed fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil (ge).

Now if the greek word "kosmos" was there, then you would have a much better argument for "kosmos" is translate as world.

Choose Wisely said:
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That's not an accurate translation, as mentioned in my previous post to you, a better translation is:

Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength (katischuó) to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

katischuó is NOT defined as "accounted worthy", nor is ever used in any other instance in the bible to mean "accounted worthy". It is defined: to overcome, or overpower

There is a greek word for "accounted worthy" it is kataxioó

Luke 20:35 but those who are considered worthy (kataxioó) to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,

It would do you well to brush up on your greek.

Choose Wisely said:
Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

No where does this say peace and safety AFTER the tribulation followed by the wrath of God.

Try again.

Choose Wisely said:
Matt 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I agree scripture states this, and it supports my argument.

Choose Wisely said:
I know there are 3 harvest feasts and I know that no harvest has occurred.

You are entitled to your opinion, but providing scripture to support you opinions helps. As of yet, you have provide no scripture that interprets those 3 harvest feasts as the rapture or resurrection.

Choose Wisely said:
I also know that Noah is in the ark 7 days BEFORE the flood

I agree, as scripture explicitly states this:

Genesis 7:4-5 For in seven days I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and every living thingc that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground.” And Noah did all that the Lord had commanded him.

it's interesting that the SAME DAY that Noah is saved from the Flood, everyone else is destroyed by the flood. they are not 2 separate events.

Choose Wisely said:
I also know that the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

I agree as scripture explicitly states this

Genesis 19:22-24 Hurry! Run there quickly, for I cannot do anything until you reach it.” That is why the town was called Zoar. When the sun had risen over the land, Lot had reached Zoar. Then the LORD rained down brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens

It's interesting that the SAME DAY Lot is spared from wrath, Sodom and Gomorrah is destroyed. They are not 2 separate events

Choose Wisely said:
I also know that God declares the end from the beginning.

I agree, as scripture clearly states this:

Isaiah 46:10 I distinguish the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come,

Choose Wisely said:
There are just countless scriptures that point to a pre trib rapture of the Gentiles and a prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes.

In fact, there is not even 1 scripture that states a pre tribulation rapture. If there was, you would have posted by now with a feeling of ahah!

Choose Wisely said:
Those that are worthy to escape......escape ALL THE THINGS that will come to pass.....the tribulation.

It's not "worthy to escape" its "strength to escape". Look up the greek word.

But otherwise, it seems we agree here "ALL THE THINGS" refer to the tribulation.

Choose Wisely said:
They are the remnant that goes through the wrath of God in a place of protection........wings of an eagle.

No scripture states that those that flee to the mountain go through the wrath of God.

Choose Wisely said:
And then God deals with the 12 tribes. The 144,000 first fruits are a guarantee of a harvest,

The 144,000 first fruits were already sealed in the 1st century, when the spirit was poured out at pentecost

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us, placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come

James 1:1,18 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

The sealing by the spirit guaranteed the resurrection/harvest

2 Corinthians 5:5 And God has prepared us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a pledge of what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13-14 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

Choose Wisely said:
Again......get a proper translation and you won't be so confused.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You would do well to brush up on the Greek.

claninja · Feb 7, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
But is significant amount of time elapses before the beast is destroyed. IE the Pagan Roman Empire is converted. And after that there is another 1000 years of Millennium. And after that there is still a little time of gog and Magog.

So assuming that all New Testament Scripture is correct. Then the Olivet discourse. Must be stretched over. The ask at a logical timeline of Revelation. Some events clearly correlate with the fall of Babylon. Symbolizing apostate Jerusalem. The rest, obviously applies to final judgment. At the end of earth time in revelation 20:9+

The last vision of Daniel associates the resurrection with great tribulation

Daniel 12:1-2 At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The angel tells Daniel that all things (tribulation, resurrection of just and unjust, shining of the righteous) will be finished by the time the holy people power is shattered.

And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the power of the holy people as been completely shattered, all these things will be finished.

Even Jesus associates the harvest and destruction of Jerusalem at the end of the age with Daniel 12

Daniel 12:3 those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever

Matthew 13:41-43 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near

That means that those who sleep in the dust awaking, some to life and some to contempt, occurs when the holy people's (Israel) power is shattered. This is consistent with the son of man coming immediately after the great tribulation of Jerusalem (holy's people's power shattered). This is also consistent with coming of the vineyard owner to destroy the wicked tenants (destroying the power of the holy people) and giving the kingdom to the saints. Interesting to note, the when the little horn of Daniel 7 is destroyed, the kingdom is given to the saints.

Matthew 21:40-43 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:“‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;d this was the Lord’s doing,and it is marvelous in our eyes’? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”e

Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;

What that means is that the beast of revelation is most likely not pagan Rome. Additionally scripture does not define the beast as pagan Rome. The beast of revelation does correlate with the little horn of Daniel 7, for both the beast and little horn blaspheme God and wear out the saints

Daniel 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,

Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words
Revelation 17:3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names

Revelation 13:7 it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them
Revelation 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”

While IN THE VISION, the beast's body is destroyed, IN THE INTERPRETATION, it is not the beast that is destroyed, but the little horn. Thus it is not Rome that was destroyed in 70 AD, but the little horn.

Daniel 7:11 I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.

Daniel 7:24-26 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings.He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.

Interesting to note that the 4th beast had 10 horns leading up to the saints receiving the kingdom. There 10 kings of the roman empire leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem upon which the saints would receive the kingdom.

3 of those kings were plucked up during the Jewish Roman war

Erik Nelson · Feb 7, 2019

claninja said:
The last vision of Daniel associates the resurrection with great tribulation

Daniel 12:1-2 At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The angel tells Daniel that all things (tribulation, resurrection of just and unjust, shining of the righteous) will be finished by the time the holy people power is shattered.

And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the power of the holy people as been completely shattered, all these things will be finished.

Even Jesus associates the harvest and destruction of Jerusalem at the end of the age with Daniel 12

Daniel 12:3 those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever

Matthew 13:41-43 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near

That means that those who sleep in the dust awaking, some to life and some to contempt, occurs when the holy people's (Israel) power is shattered. This is consistent with the son of man coming immediately after the great tribulation of Jerusalem (holy's people's power shattered). This is also consistent with coming of the vineyard owner to destroy the wicked tenants (destroying the power of the holy people) and giving the kingdom to the saints. Interesting to note, the when the little horn of Daniel 7 is destroyed, the kingdom is given to the saints.

Matthew 21:40-43 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:“‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;d this was the Lord’s doing,and it is marvelous in our eyes’? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”e

Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;

What that means is that the beast of revelation is most likely not pagan Rome. Additionally scripture does not define the beast as pagan Rome. The beast of revelation does correlate with the little horn of Daniel 7, for both the beast and little horn blaspheme God and wear out the saints

Daniel 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,

Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words
Revelation 17:3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names

Revelation 13:7 it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them
Revelation 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”

While IN THE VISION, the beast's body is destroyed, IN THE INTERPRETATION, it is not the beast that is destroyed, but the little horn. Thus it is not Rome that was destroyed in 70 AD, but the little horn.

Daniel 7:11 I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.

Daniel 7:24-26 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings.He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.

Interesting to note that the 4th beast had 10 horns leading up to the saints receiving the kingdom. There 10 kings of the roman empire leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem upon which the saints would receive the kingdom.

3 of those kings were plucked up during the Jewish Roman war

think you are running scripture through a time warp

all the beasts of Daniel were part of the same vision, same statue, same geographic region Middle east, same time period BC, same size million square miles

Assyria Babylon Alexander the great's empire, Caesar's empire

the statue topples when the rock of the church bowls it over in the early centuries ad

leading to the millennium

your Daniel statue is elastic man with shins and ankles 5x longer than the rest of the body

Choose Wisely · Feb 8, 2019

keras said:
Do you really think you are good enough to be taken to heaven; before the Lord sends His wrath to test everyone?

Luke 18
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

I am unaware that I need to be good enough. Please provide scripture to back up your claim that a person must be "GOOD ENOUGH" to get to heaven. Are you good enough?

keras said:
BTW, I am not on the Forum Board or a moderator. If I was you would have been banned long ago.

I never meant to imply that you were a forum moderator. You are part of a small group of people that gang up on other posters, and run them off. There is no interest in truth. Those that come here seeking the truth......soon leave.

claninja · Feb 8, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
That's like saying can you find a sentence that tells the whole story.

The pretrib rapture is not the "whole story". It still appears you cannot produce even 1 verse that shows the rapture occurs before the tribulation.

Choose Wisely said:
All scripture is profitable for teaching, reproof and training in righteousness.

I agree. But if you want to specifically teach, train, or reproof on the pretrib rapture, maybe you should have an actual scripture to show for it.

Choose Wisely said:
Well, we can see the signs of the sun, moon and stars immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24.

I agree, as scripture clearly teaches that, unlike the pretrib rapture:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

Choose Wisely said:
We see this same event occur in Rev 6 which occurs just before the wrath of God.

I agree, as scripture clearly states that, unlike the pretrib rapture

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man,

revelation 6:12-17 and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Additionally, we see Jesus applying this same prophecy to Jerusalem
Luke 23:28-30 But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’ At that time

‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!”
and to the hills, “Cover us!”’

Choose Wisely said:
1 Thes 5
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Considering, the signs in heaven (sun, moon, stars) and the coming of the son of Man occur immediately after the tribulation, I would argue the "peace and safety" is prior to the tribulation.

Choose Wisely said:
I know, I know, I do not have one scripture that says peace and safety is after the tribulation just before the wrath of God.

At least you admit it

Choose Wisely said:
You seem very, very, very weak in the deductive reasoning department.

Just because you don't have scriptural evidence for your beliefs, doesn't mean you need to be rude.

Choose Wisely said:
So you read a news story and it says....... The man struck a match and set it on a log pile. The log pile caught fire and spread to the house, and that was fire that caused the smoke that shut down highway I10. Then later on you read the obits and see that 5 people were killed by a house fire near highway I10 on the same day. Later on someone comes to your house and says that a match was responsible for the death of 5 people. I can see you jump up and say no where does it say that a match killed 5 people. Maybe a private tutor could help, but I don't know.

This in no way is an appropriate representation of your personal belief in the pretrib rapture, and my asking for you to provide specific evidence to support it.

Here is a better example.

A man comes to your door to sell you a pill. He says it can cure all types of ailments. You ask for evidence that this pill is really a cure all. He says there is no specific evidence that it does work but his personal understanding that it does works is all you need. The more you ask for evidence, the more the pill salesman declines and instead insults your intelligence.

Would you buy the pill? I know I wouldn't.

Choose Wisely said:
Maybe this will help, but don't write off the tutor.

Wow, you took the time to look up a deductive reasoning video and attach it to your post in order to insult my reasoning skills, instead of posting scripture to support you argument. Cheers.

Choose Wisely said:
Matt 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It's more interesting that they were eating and drinking UNTIL THE DAY that Noah entered into the ark. Seven days later the flood destroyed them all. I know this again takes deductive reasoning. Just do the best you can for now.

So let's use some deductive reasoning.

So if people were eating and drinking UNTIL Noah entered the ark, that means you believe people stopped eating and drinking for 7 days prior to the start of the flood? If this is the case, I would disagree.

The greek word for "until" in this passage is achri. It's usages include: as far as, up to, until, during. It's not always used as a point of cessation. Sometimes it's used as a point of reference; for example:

Did the Israelites stop multiplying when a new king arose who did not know Joseph?
Acts 7:17-18 But as the time of the promise drew near, which God had granted to Abraham, the people increased and multiplied in Egypt UNTIL (achri) there arose over Egypt another king who did not know Joseph

No, in fact they multiplied even more when the new Egyptian King oppressed them.
Exodus 1:8-12 Then a new king, who knew nothing of Joseph, came to power in Egypt. 9“Look,” he said to his people, “the Israelites have become too numerous and too powerful for us. 10Come, we must deal shrewdly with them, or they will increase even more; and if a war breaks out, they may join our enemies, fight against us, and leave the country.” So the Egyptians appointed taskmasters over the Israelites to oppress them with forced labor. As a result, they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh. But the more they were oppressed, the more they multiplied and flourished; so the Egyptians came to dread the Israelites.

Choose Wisely said:
That is interesting. Lot leaves Sodom the very day destruction comes. And yet Noah is in the ark 7 days before destruction comes.

Choose wisely, if you believe in Jesus, you have already entered the ark, and you have already been saved from the wrath of God.

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

1 Peter 3:20-21 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Choose Wisely said:
No, my ahah moment came when I noted the constant failure in the deductive reasoning department.

nicely done Choose Wisely. Insulting my reasoning skills really helps your case.

Choose Wisely said:
That's true. And no brick and stick is a house. However, if you take many bricks and sticks and put them in the right place, you will have your house.

The key is the right place, and it doesn't appear that you have put them together in the right place. you are also missing the brick that states there will be a pretrib rapture.

Choose Wisely said:
No scripture says that 144,000 first fruits occurred in the 1st century.

Correct, there is no specific scripture that specifically states 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes lived specifically in first century.

But there is specific scripture that states the first fruits of the 12 tribes of Israel existed in the 1st century.

James 1:1,18
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion. Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Choose Wisely said:
And for you might I recommend using a Bible with a proper translation...........and a four year deductive reasoning course. In all seriousness, you really seem to be struggling in that area.

I always try to use multiple translations when reading, as well as looking at the original greek. I find this gives the best picture in understanding scripture.

I have provided arguments of why your translation is and may not be not as accurate. You have to yet to rebuttal them. Instead you decided to insult my deductive reasoning skills. Interesting debate tactic, but fruitless for us and the readers.

So Instead, I'll give you another chance to rebuttal my argument:

That's not an accurate translation, as mentioned in my previous post to you, a better translation is:

Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength (katischuó) to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

katischuó is NOT defined as "accounted worthy", nor is ever used in any other instance in the bible to mean "accounted worthy". It is defined: to overcome, or overpower

There is a greek word for "accounted worthy" it is kataxioó

Luke 20:35 but those who are considered worthy (kataxioó) to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,

Luke 21:35 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the all earth (ge)

Luke 21:35 (ylt) for as a snare it shall come on all those dwelling on the face of all the land (ge)

The greek word for ge doesn't necissarily always mean the planet earth as a whole. It can mean the land or the soil. Considering the context is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the signs leading up to it, I would argue "land" would be a better interpretation.

Luke 4:3 Getting into one of the boats, which was Simon’s, he asked him to put out a little from the land (ge). And he sat down and taught the people from the boat.

Mark 6:47 when evening came, the boat was out on the sea, and he was alone on the land (ge)

Mark 4:5 seed fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil (ge).

Now if the greek word "kosmos" was there, then you would have a much better argument for "kosmos" is translate as world.

claninja · Feb 8, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
think you are running scripture through a time warp

Not following you, my position has it fulfilled by 70 AD. not stretched out.....

Erik Nelson said:
all the beasts of Daniel were part of the same vision, same statue, same geographic region Middle east, same time period BC, same size million square miles

I agree

Babylon-head of Gold (Daniel 2) - 1st beast (Daniel 7)
Persia/Mede -Arms and chest of silver (Daniel 2) - 2nd beast (Daniel 7)
Greece - Belly and thighs of Bronze (Daniel 2) - 3rd beast (Daniel 7)
Rome - Legs of Iron/Feet of Clay/Iron (Daniel 2) -4th beast with 10 horns (Daniel 7).

Erik Nelson said:
Assyria Babylon Alexander the great's empire, Caesar's empire

I would disagree with Assyria, as Daniel 2 makes no mention of Assyria. I would make the argument it was Babylon, Persia/Mede, Greece, and Rome

Erik Nelson said:
the statue topples when the rock of the church bowls it over in the early centuries ad

I would argue, the rock is Christ, the mountain it grows into, his body.

Matthew 21:44-45 He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.” When the chief priests and Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew He was speaking about them.

Daniel 2:44 In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, and this kingdom will not be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever.

Erik Nelson said:
your Daniel statue is elastic man with shins and ankles 5x longer than the rest of the body

I feel like I'm doing the opposite of stretching it out (futurism), as I believe it fulfilled by 70AD. Maybe you misunderstood me, and that could be my fault, so I apologize. So let me clarify.

I believe the 4 kingdoms of the statue and beasts are Babylon, Persia/Mede, Greece, and Rome. Jesus preached the kingdom was at hand during the 4th kingdom (Rome).

Mark 1:14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand;e repent and believe in the gospel.”

Daniel is told the 4th Beast (Rome) has 10 horns, which are kings. There were exactly 10 kings of the Roman empire leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem (Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Cladius, Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian).

Daniel 7:7,24 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise,

Daniel is specifically told the other horn that arises after the 10 kings is different from the 10 kings, meaning the little horn doesn't necessarily have to be a roman king.

Daniel 7:24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them;he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings.

Daniel states the kingdom will be taken away from the little horn and given to the saints

Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him

Jesus states the kingdom will be taken away from unfaithful Israel and given to the saints (true Israel)

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits

I also believe the little horn of Daniel 7 and the beast of Revelation to be the same entity. As they both blaspheme God and persecute the saints. Thus, Just as the beast is multiple entities (7 heads = 7 kings and 10 horns = 10 kings), and yet 1 entity (the beast is the 8th king), I believe the little horn to be multiple entities and yet one entity, that was under the influence of satan, for the little horn is 'different' then 10 human kings.

Therefore, when the little horn was destroyed during the time of the 10 roman kings, the kingdom was given to the saints around 70AD.

Hebrews 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe

2 timothy 4:18 And the Lord will rescue me from every evil action and bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom.

Choose Wisely · Feb 8, 2019

claninja said:
The pretrib rapture is not the "whole story". It still appears you cannot produce even 1 verse that shows the rapture occurs before the tribulation.

A) Please provide one verse that says there is not a pretribulation rapture.
B) I have provided multiple verses that show there is a pre tribulation rapture. If you take these verses and apply deductive reasoning you should be able to arrive at the correct conclusion, if you so choose.
C) Jesus tells us that we will not know when he will come. He will come in a hour that we think not. I believe Him. Are you expecting Him to make that statement and then provide you with a scripture of exactly when He is coming.

claninja said:
I agree. But if you want to specifically teach, train, or reproof on the pretrib rapture, maybe you should have an actual scripture to show for it.

Okay. Here's some scriptures that should help.

Starting in Rev 5 we see 24 elders and the throne. They say they are redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Since 24 elders can't come out of kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, there is obviously others there that they are speaking for. This event occurs before any seals are opened. Therefore the tribulation has not started. That's one of the many reasons there will be a pretribulation rapture.
Rev 5
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Look at Matt 24 and 1 Thes 5. How is it that Jesus tells us the Goodman will not know when He is coming and yet Paul says that day won't take the believers unaware. How is it that Jesus tells us that things happen on the earth and there will be signs in the sun and the moon and stars. He says look up, your redemption draws nigh, and yet he then says that the Goodman will not know when he is coming. That has to mean He is coming more than once. He is coming Pre Trib and then He is coming immediately after the tribulation, Pre wrath.
Matt 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

1 Thes 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

In 1 Thes 4 he says those that are asleep He will bring with Him. They will rise again.......likely on a harvest feast. Jesus will bring them with Him in the clouds. When the pretribulation rapture occurs those that are alive will be caught up......with those in the clouds........to meet the Lord in the air. At this point both the barley and wheat harvest would have occurred.
1 Thes 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Church will be gone pretrib as proven in Rev 5. Then the tribulation occurs. After the tribulation is over Jesus is coming for the fall fruit harvest. The 144,000 that are first fruits are a guarantee of a harvest. The harvest will be the twelve tribes. We can see the Matt 24 event "immediately after the tribulation" occurring in Rev 6. Then the wrath of God begins.
Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is the fall fruit harvest. The righteous are gathered in the clouds. The unrighteous go through the wrath of God.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Salvation comes to the Gentiles pretrib. Then the eyes of 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth are opened. They go through the tribulation, but not the wrath of God. This is proven by their being 144,000 1st first fruits. Those in the nation of Israel that were not killed during the tribulation will go through the wrath of God. Those that run to the mountains as instructed when the abomination of desolation is set up will flee to a place of protection.
Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The fall fruit harvest begins at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. Summer is near when the pretribulation rapture occurs.
1 Cor 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

BABerean2 · Feb 8, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
Please provide one verse that says there is not a pretribulation rapture.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb, and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found in the book.

.

mkgal1 · Feb 8, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
A) Please provide one verse that says there is not a pretribulation rapture.

It's typically a ridiculous request - to ask to prove a negative - but, in this case, there actually IS a verse that I can think of that destroys the idea of a pretribulation rapture (and the idea that the tribulation is future as well):

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ

The First Persecution, Under Nero, A.D. 67 - Fox's Book of Martyrs

Quoting Philip Mauro :
There was also an Egyptian false prophet, who got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him. These he led about from the wilderness to the mount which is called the mount of Olives. This, according to Josephus, was in the days when Felix was governor. Consequently it was at the time of Paul's last visit to Jerusalem, which calls to mind that the chief captain before whom Paul was taken after the disturbance in the Temple, supposed that he was that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers (#Ac 21:38). It also brings to mind the definite warning of Christ, Wherefore, if they shall say to you, Behold, He is in the desert, go not forth (#Mt 24:26).

Josephus likens the social conditions at that time to those of a body which is thoroughly diseased, in that when trouble subsided in one place it broke out immediately in another. For, says he, a company of deceivers and robbers got together, and persuaded the Jews to revolt, and exhorted them to assert their liberty (id. 6).

About this time Felix was succeeded by Festus (as is also recorded in (#Ac 24:27), and he by Florus, who was the most wicked of all the Roman governors, and the immediate occasion of the war. This was in the twelfth year of Emperor Nero, A.D. 66. Josephus relates that when Cestius Gallus came to Jerusalem at the passover season the people came about him not fewer in number than three millions (II 14:3). This shows the immense numbers which gathered in Jerusalem at that season.

Josephus relates with much detail the atrocities and barbarities which the people suffered at the hands of the soldiers, and describes their agonies and lamentations. On one occasion the soldiers, after plundering the citizens, crucified many of them, the number of those slain (including women and children) being about 3600 on that single occasion. It appears to have been the deliberate purpose of Florus to goad the Jews into a revolt, so that thereby his own acts of plunder and other crimes might be covered up (II 14, 9) ~ The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation - Philip Mauro

Choose Wisely · Feb 8, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb, and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

Okay, that's good. But that is certainly not proof there will not be a pre tribualtion rapture. We already know He is bringing both Jews and Gentiles.
John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Once the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, He will deal with the 12 tribes.....But you already know that.
Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

BABerean2 said:
The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found in the book.
.

So are you saying that these individual churches were not part of God's Church? I can't agree with that.

BABerean2 · Feb 8, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
So are you saying that these individual churches were not part of God's Church? I can't agree with that.

I am saying no such thing.
They are a part of the same New Covenant Church as those found in Revelation 12:11, and those now found all over the world.

.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 8, 2019

mkgal1 said:
It's typically a ridiculous request - to ask to prove a negative - but, in this case, there actually IS a verse that I can think of that destroys the idea of a pretribulation rapture (and the idea that the tribulation is future as well):

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ
The First Persecution, Under Nero, A.D. 67 - Fox's Book of Martyrs

Good catch..

One thing I found peculiar when harmonizing the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple discourse was the complete absence of the word "tribulation" in Luke's Gospel, zilch, nada.

Luke uses "distress" and "wrath" concerning the 1st century Jews.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:
9 - “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation<2347> and kill you,
and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
[Revelation 2:9-10 "False Jews of Satan/Devil]

21 for then shall be great tribulation<2347>, such as was not from the beginning of world till now, no, nor may be becoming [the last chance for the Jewish Christians to be out of Judea/Jerusalem 70ad]

29 “Immediately after the tribulation<2347> of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Mark 13:19
For in those days shall be tribulation<2347> such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress<318> in the land and wrath upon this people.

Revelation mentions #2347 in just 5 vs in the entire book of Revelation.

Rev 1:9
I, John, who also am your brother, and fellow-partner in the tribulation, and in the reign and endurance, of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ;

False Jews vs 9

Revelation 2:10: thrown in prison, tribulation 10 days
The Devil casting Saints to a prison for "10 days" vs10

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
And Queen Jezebel v22
The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches

Rev 2:
9
I have known thy works and tribulation and poverty -- yet thou art rich --
and the blasphemy of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are a synagogue of the Satan.
10
'Be not afraid of the things that thou art about to suffer; lo!
the Devil is about to cast of you to prison, that ye may be tried,
and ye shall have tribulation ten days;
become thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of the life.
22
lo, I will cast Her into a couch, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation -- if they may not repent of their works,
Rev 7:14
and I have said to him, 'Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me, 'These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb;

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 8, 2019

mkgal1 said:
The First Persecution, Under Nero, A.D. 67 - Fox's Book of Martyrs

Quoting Philip Mauro :
There was also an Egyptian false prophet, who got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him. These he led about from the wilderness to the mount which is called the mount of Olives. This, according to Josephus, was in the days when Felix was governor. Consequently it was at the time of Paul's last visit to Jerusalem, which calls to mind that the chief captain before whom Paul was taken after the disturbance in the Temple, supposed that he was that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers (#Ac 21:38). It also brings to mind the definite warning of Christ, Wherefore, if they shall say to you, Behold, He is in the desert, go not forth (#Mt 24:26).
The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation - Philip Mauro

Have you checked out this article?

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70

===================================
Everyone is anxious for this guy to release part 4 his 70ad Jerusalem series.

[This is a list of historic videos he has produced.......awesome ]

Classical Antiquity (Documentaries) - YouTube

..............................

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION.............
========================

Erik Nelson · Feb 9, 2019

claninja said:
Babylon-head of Gold (Daniel 2) - 1st beast (Daniel 7)
Persia/Mede -Arms and chest of silver (Daniel 2) - 2nd beast (Daniel 7)
Greece - Belly and thighs of Bronze (Daniel 2) - 3rd beast (Daniel 7)
Rome - Legs of Iron/Feet of Clay/Iron (Daniel 2) -4th beast with 10 horns (Daniel 7).

yes

and the 4th beast of Daniel = Beast [of Sea] of Revelation

Daniel's Vision is essentially linear in time, the heights of the various body sections of the statue correspond to almost exactly analogous amounts of time

all points to the "little horn" = Diocletian, "rock" ushering in Millennium = Church victory under Constantine in 312 AD

In another thread, people were claiming the 4th Beast is modern times, which would require the following:

Marilyn C · Feb 9, 2019

claninja said:
There is no scripture in the entire Bible that specifically states the church/believers will be "raptured" prior to the tribulation.

Hi claninja,

Actually there is a scripture, Acts 3: 20 & 21.

`God.....may send Jesus Christ.....who heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

Marilyn.

Marilyn C · Feb 9, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
yes

and the 4th beast of Daniel = Beast [of Sea] of Revelation

Daniel's Vision is essentially linear in time, the heights of the various body sections of the statue correspond to almost exactly analogous amounts of time

all points to the "little horn" = Diocletian, "rock" ushering in Millennium = Church victory under Constantine in 312 AD

In another thread, people were claiming the 4th Beast is modern times, which would require the following:

Hi Erik,

So are you saying that the Gentiles are NOT ruling today? For that is what the Great Image is all about, - the times of the Gentiles ruling the world.

Marilyn.

Erik Nelson · Feb 10, 2019

Marilyn C said:
Hi Erik,

So are you saying that the Gentiles are NOT ruling today? For that is what the Great Image is all about, - the times of the Gentiles ruling the world.

Marilyn.

insofar as "Gog & Magog" are non-faithful, non-believing, non-Chosen-by-God-in-heaven "non-spiritual-Israel" so-called "gentiles"... then maybe i guess so

but the "gentiles" of the Statue were bowled over by the Rock of Christ's Church in the 3rd-4th centuries AD

Christianity governed society for the next thousand years... until the conquest of Constantinople, Reformation & Renaissance (which explicitly sought to resurrect Classical Greco-Roman paganism, through Science, which is why we gave pagan names to all newly discovered planets, e.g. Uranus, Neptune, Pluto)

Is a 3rd future Temple needed to fulfill Bible prophecy?

Is a future Temple in Jerusalem needed to fulfill Bible prophecy?

No. We are now the Temple/Sanctuary of God: 1 Corinthians 3:16

Yes. It is needed for the future "Man of Sin" to sit in: 2 Thess 2:4

Other

Forgiven

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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Forgiven

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Forgiven

Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Forgiven

Newbie

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Pre-tribulation.

Pre-tribulation.

Well-Known Member

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