Why Believers Are Guiltless for Profaning the Sabbath

klutedavid said:

That is not true Oldmantook, the Pharisees knew the law down to the very letter. Paul was a Pharisee and an expert in respect of the law. Sure they added traditions to the law but they knew Exodus and Leviticus by rote.

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They knew the "letter of the law" but misunderstood how it was to be applied. The fact is they created their own man-made rabbinical traditions to enforce the law. Thus their blind obedience to their own traditions obliterated their understanding and adherence to the Law itself.

klutedavid said:

But the problem you have here is that Jesus did not mention in the text (Matthew 12), anything about extra Sabbath tradition. Jesus accepted the accusation of the Pharisees as a valid accusation. Please read the text again and carefully.

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That is an argument of silence which is one of the weakest forms of argumentation. Moreover, Jesus did not need to mention their extra Sabbath tradition. He merely had to point out to them the examples of the priests and David in the OT to demonstrate that their own traditions contradicted Scripture itself.

klutedavid said:

Yes He did Oldmantook, but this passage is talking about what the disciples were doing not what Jesus was doing.

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The point is MERCY. Jesus was merciful as he worked on the Sabbath doing miracles. In the same way it is merciful to allow hungry disciples to pick and eat grain on the Sabbath.

klutedavid said:

David and his followers were indeed lawless in the temple but so were the disciples. That is exactly why Jesus spoke of David breaking the law.

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The disciples were not lawless. The biblical scholar Alfred Edersheim, himself a Jewish convert to Christianity wrote that the disciples’ conduct “was not a breach of the Biblical, but of the Rabbinic Law” (1947, 56).

klutedavid said:

One greater than the temple was in their midst, so the disciples were in the presence of God Himself. That is how the Sabbath breach can be understood, the disciples did not need to honor the Sabbath while God was present with them.

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So one can sin in the presence of God? Not honoring the Sabbath can occur whether one is in or not in the presence of God. God certainly does not allow sin to dwell in his presence does he?

Oldmantook said:

They knew the "letter of the law" but misunderstood how it was to be applied.

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This statement is very true and what JESUS was teaching in the NEW COVENANT.

JESUS came to magnify the LAW from the INSIDE OUT quoting MATTHEW 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *ISAIAH 42:21. This is to show that unless our RIGHTOUESNESS EXCEEDS the RIGHTOUESNESS of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. EVIL begins in the HEART. BREAKING GOD's 10 COMMANDMENTS from the heart defile a man *MATTHEW 15:18-19. JESUS is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *MATTHEW 23:27-28. JESUS magnified the LAW to the INSIDE OUT. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and that sin originates in the HEART (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have the NEW COVENANT promise and need to be BORN AGAIN by Faith in God's WORD for salvation to be free from SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *HEBREWS 8:10-12; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

If we are not BORN AGAIN into the NEW COVENANT promise and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 2:3-4. ALL those who KNOWINGLY break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. All those who KNOWINGLY CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into God's KINGDOM *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripure that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

RIGHTESOUSNESS comes from LOVE because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW and the very expression of what LOVE is *ROMANS 13:8-10. He that does not LOVE does not KNOW GOD for GOD IS LOVE * 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are BORN AGAIN have a NEW HEART TO LOVE and FOLLOW GOD *1 JOHN 4:7. This is the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Those who are BORN AGAIN do not practice SIN (breaking God's Commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9. This is why JOHN finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 JOHN 5:3 and is why JESUS says IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments *JOHN 14:15. UNLESS we are BORN AGAIN under the NEW COVENANT to LOVE we will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *JOHN 3:3-7. We need to be changed from the INSIDE OUT.

God bless.

Oldmantook said:

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<OMT>As in everything scriptural, context determines interpretation.
“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
I think this passage states that James was referring to the "minimum" requirements necessary for the gentiles as it was his intention to not make it difficult for the gentiles to turn to God. This is confirmed by his concluding statement in v.21 where he stated that the law of Moses - not the law of Noah - is preached every Sabbath. So in conclusion, the gentiles were initially required to abstain from foods to idols, sexual immorality and strangled meet and blood but as they continued to attend synagogue on the Sabbath they would learn more by the preaching/reading of the law of Moses and make further changes in their lives according to the Law.<OMT>

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That is not what Jesus said.
Jesus did not say that His followers would be worshiping side by side with Jews in the synagogues. Jesus said His followers would be put in prison, persecuted, beaten, scourged and even killed but not one word about His followers worshiping in the synagogues.
.....Some folks bring their assumptions/presuppositions to Acts 15:21. If Paul had intended for gentiles to attend synagogues and become Torah observant, he would have specifically written that, otherwise gentiles would not know to do so.
.....The list of minimum requirements for gentiles is repeated two more times in Acts 15:28-29 and 21:25. Nothing is ever mentioned about gentiles attending synagogues and keeping the law. In fact, twice Paul specifically states that gentiles were not given any commandment to keep the law Acts 15:24 and 21:24-25.
Although Paul was a circumcised Torah observant Jew he was persecuted everywhere he went because he was also a follower of Jesus, Acts 9:16, 23-24, 13:50-51, 14:5-6, 16:16-24, 17:1-15, 19:20, 19:23-41, 19:27-28, 30. It is highly unlikely that uncircumcised gentiles would be welcome in the synagogues as Jesus said.

Oldmantook said:

They knew the "letter of the law" but misunderstood how it was to be applied. The fact is they created their own man-made rabbinical traditions to enforce the law. Thus their blind obedience to their own traditions obliterated their understanding and adherence to the Law itself.

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You are partly mistaken on this point. Paul was a Pharisee and blameless as far as the law was concerned.

Philippians 3:5-6
Circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Paul was letter perfect in the application of the law in his own words.

That is an argument of silence which is one of the weakest forms of argumentation. Moreover, Jesus did not need to mention their extra Sabbath tradition.

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You are struggling here, you need to quote where the Pharisees held to added Sabbath tradition from chapter twelve, to support your argument. Your not really reading what the text states are you.

He merely had to point out to them the examples of the priests and David in the OT to demonstrate that their own traditions contradicted Scripture itself.

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There is nothing in this chapter that mentions Sabbath traditions. Why do you keep promoting your fictional interpretation.

The fact is David broke the law and so did the disciples.

The point is MERCY. Jesus was merciful as he worked on the Sabbath doing miracles. In the same way it is merciful to allow hungry disciples to pick and eat grain on the Sabbath.

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Ultimately love is what God is all about. So the Lord of the Sabbath will decide whether a violation of the Sabbath is lethal or not.

The disciples were gathering wheat and that is not lawful on the Sabbath. You cannot evade this as the breach of the Sabbath is what this passage is all about.

The disciples were not lawless. The biblical scholar Alfred Edersheim, himself a Jewish convert to Christianity wrote that the disciples’ conduct “was not a breach of the Biblical, but of the Rabbinic Law” (1947, 56).

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Sticks or wheat, you cannot gather either on the Sabbath. Please do not debate me on this as I know what the fourth commandment states.

So one can sin in the presence of God? Not honoring the Sabbath can occur whether one is in or not in the presence of God. God certainly does not allow sin to dwell in his presence does he?

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The Pharisees were dreadful sinners but so were the disciples. Why try to paint the disciples as holy folk when we know they were not.

I don't know where your getting your ideas from but the disciples were not good men.
Peter never claimed to be a good person rather Peter confessed to being a law breaker, a sinner.

Der Alter said:

<OMT>As in everything scriptural, context determines interpretation.
“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
I think this passage states that James was referring to the "minimum" requirements necessary for the gentiles as it was his intention to not make it difficult for the gentiles to turn to God. This is confirmed by his concluding statement in v.21 where he stated that the law of Moses - not the law of Noah - is preached every Sabbath. So in conclusion, the gentiles were initially required to abstain from foods to idols, sexual immorality and strangled meet and blood but as they continued to attend synagogue on the Sabbath they would learn more by the preaching/reading of the law of Moses and make further changes in their lives according to the Law.<OMT>
That is not what Jesus said.

Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
John 16:2
(2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.​

Jesus did not say that His followers would be worshiping side by side with Jews in the synagogues. Jesus said His followers would be put in prison, persecuted, beaten, scourged and even killed but not one word about His followers worshiping in the synagogues.
.....Some folks bring their assumptions/presuppositions to Acts 15:21. If Paul had intended for gentiles to attend synagogues and become Torah observant, he would have specifically written that, otherwise gentiles would not know to do so.
.....The list of minimum requirements for gentiles is repeated two more times in Acts 15:28-29 and 21:25. Nothing is ever mentioned about gentiles attending synagogues and keeping the law. In fact, twice Paul specifically states that gentiles were not given any commandment to keep the law Acts 15:24 and 21:24-25.

Acts of the apostles 15:24
(24) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Acts of the apostles 15:28-29
(28) For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
(29) That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Acts of the apostles 21:24-25
(24) Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
(25) As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.​

Although Paul was a circumcised Torah observant Jew he was persecuted everywhere he went because he was also a follower of Jesus, Acts 9:16, 23-24, 13:50-51, 14:5-6, 16:16-24, 17:1-15, 19:20, 19:23-41, 19:27-28, 30. It is highly unlikely that uncircumcised gentiles would be welcome in the synagogues as Jesus said.

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These scriptures indicate otherwise:
From Acts 13
26 “Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent."
42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. 43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.
From Acts 18:
4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Based on the above scriptures it is apparent that gentiles were allowed in synagogue on the Sabbaths to hear Paul's teachings on the faith.

Oldmantook said:

These scriptures indicate otherwise:
From Acts 13
26 “Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent."
42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. 43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.
From Acts 18:
4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
Based on the above scriptures it is apparent that gentiles were allowed in synagogue on the Sabbaths to hear Paul's teachings on the faith.

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Verse 26 does not say "God fearing gentiles"
οι εν υμιν φοβουμενοι τον θεον
"the [plural] in you [plural] who fear God."
Vs. 42 Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue evidently the gentiles were outside.
Verse 44 did the entire city fit into the synagogue?
Even if correct one incident in one city does not show that gentiles were generally welcomed in all synagogues. Let us remember when we first encounter Paul he was wreaking havoc in the church putting people in prison, just as Jesus said, which you seem to have conveniently ignored.
Your argument ignores what Jesus said and virtually everything I said in my previous post.
Vs. 45 doesn't look like the Jews accepted Christian teaching. Gentile converts must have had to reject Jesus to enter the synagogue.
Why were people at a riverside praying on the Sabbath?
I would appreciate it if you would extend me the courtesy of addressing the bulk of my post instead of only 1-2 verses.

LoveGodsWord said:

Where in ROMANS 14 do the scriptures say here that they are talking about God's 4th commandment *EXODUS 20:8-11? The Chapter of ROMANS 14 is talking about FOOD, and eating and not eating (fasting) connected to DAYS that MEN ESTEEM over other days not what days God esteems. The things that men esteem are an abolination in God's eyes *LUKE 16:15.

Let's look at ROMANS 14?

Some points to consider in Romans 14:1-15

[1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking (fasting).

[2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on

[3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem:

LUKE 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]

[4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments

[8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

[9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin:

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

[10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

[11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14

[12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.

[13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).

[14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14

[15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".

[17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day

[18] anyone who quotes Romans 14, has in mind 'restrictions', rather than allowances

.........

CONCLUSION: Nope nothing about God's 4th Commandments Sabbath. Romans 14 is about eating and not eating (fasting) connected to days that men esteem over other days and judging others. When you look at all the scriptures used to support your claims in detail. They do not support your interpretation of God's WORD.

Hope this helps.

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Sabbath is more sacred than the other days. It is literally set apart. Paul said in Christ, we are free to consider every day alike. Romans 14:5-8 therefore nullifies insistence on Sabbath keeping for every Christian by default.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hello brother, you mix up your Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 with God's ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS in the NEW COVENANT *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172.

Besides God's 4th Commandment which is the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH written on stone, there were "SPECIAL" annual ceremonial Sabbath connected to the annual Jewish festivals in the OLD COVENANT written in the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT.

These ceremonial Sabbath were not God's 4th Commandment of the 10 Commandments but were connected to annual festivals and could fall on ANY DAY of the week depending on the yearly cycle (please read LEVITICUS 23;24-39).

These ceremonial "SPECIAL" Sabbath were connected to..

* Annual festival of The blowing of trumpet (Leviticus 23:24)
* Annual Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:32)
* Annual Feast of tabernacles (Leviticus 23:39)

These "SPECIAL" Sabbath could fall on any day and were connected directly to these festivals that were prophetic in nature pointing to Jesus and God's plan of Salvation in the NEW COVENANT.

You have your Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT mixed up with God's ETERNAL LAW that give us a KNOWLEDGE of sin (Romans 3:20).

DETAILED SCRIPTURE SUPPORT COLOSSIANS 2 LINKING THE NEW TESTAMENT TO OLD

Hope this helps.

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It is not limited to "special Sabbaths," it just says Sabbaths.

LoveGodsWord said:

More of the same brother.

HEBREWS 4:9 SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

In the NEW TESTAMENT.....

1. Jesus taught that it is lawful to do GOOD on the Sabbath? (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)

2. Jesus taught that God's Sabbath was made for mankind and not man for the Sabbath rebuking the tradtions of the Jew in regards to their traditions and interpretation around Sabbath keeping? (Mark 2:27-28; Matthew 12:8)

3. Jesus taught that he was the maker and creator of the Sabbath and the God of creation? (Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1-3; 14; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16-17; Mark 2:27)

4. Jesus is our example who kept the Sabbath as well as all those who followed him (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matt 16:24; Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Rev 1:10)

5. Jesus taught that break God's Commandments and teach others to do so will not enter God's Kingdom? (Matt 5:19)

6. Jesus taught that not a jot or tittle will pass from God's LAW until heaven and earth pass away? (Matthew 5:18)

7. Jesus taught that on the two great commandments of LOVE to GOD and MAN hang ALL the LAW and the prophets (Matthew 22:36-40)

8. Paul warns us that those who do NOT believe and follow GOD do not enter into God's Sabbath rest because of their SINS and UNBELIEF (Hebrews 3-4)

9. Jesus, Paul, James, John and Peter taught there is 10 Commandments including the Sabbath and not 9 commandments and if you break one of God's Commandments you stand guilty before God of breaking all of them (James 2:8-12).

10. Timothy teaches that ALL SCRIPTURE (OLD AND NEW Testament) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16). Jesus teaches we are to live by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4)

Why would Jesus and the Apostles give us further instruction in relation to Sabbath keeping building on the OLD TESTAMENET scriptures if we no longer need to keep it? (Point 1, 2, 3, 6)

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What Jesus didn't teach was that Gentiles have to live like Jews. Paul didn't teach that either, he vehemently opposed such teaching. The logical case you are building here is that Gentiles need to follow the whole law, because these quotes are addressing the law as a whole, and the law is a package deal (James 2:10). Yet, we have the Holy Spirit telling us in Acts 15 that Gentiles are not bound to the whole law. And we have Paul in the passages I quoted (and in the entire book of Galatians) saying the same thing. I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are in agreement, and the Holy Spirit made it clear that Gentile believers are not bound by the entire law, and that includes Sabbath. I'm going to go with the Holy Spirit on this.

Sketcher said:

It is not limited to "special Sabbaths," it just says Sabbaths.

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Nope not at all. Sabbath here is plural (FEASTIVAL Sabbaths) it is not the Sabbath singular. The withing scripture and chapter CONTEXT is the the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7. Here let's look at both the within scripture and chapter context and examine your claims. Let's start by looking at the within chapter context.

COL 2:11-17 CHAPTER CONTEXT
[11], In whom also you are CIRCUMCISION with the CIRCUMCISION made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12], Buried with him in baptism, in which also you are risen with him through the faith of the working of God, who has raised him from the dead.
[13], And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[14], BLOTTING OUT the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[15], And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[16], Let no man therefore judge you in FOOD AND DRINK, or in respect of a HOLY DAY [FESTIVAL], or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS:
[17], Which are a SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; but the body is of Christ.

CHAPTER CONTEXT OF COL 2:14 AND SUBJECT MATTER (COL 2:11-17)

V11. Shadows of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing to CIRCUMCISION of the HEART MADE WITHOUT HANDS by the CIRCUMCISION of Christ.

THE SHADOW LAWS FORETOLD IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES….

DEUTERONOMY 10:16 [16] CIRCUMCISE THERFORE THE FORESKIN OF YOUR HEART, and be no more stiff-necked.

DEUTERONOMY 30:6 [6] And the LORD your God will CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEART AND THE HEART OF YOUR DECENDENCE, TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITHYOU’RE YOUR SOUL, THAT YOU MAY LIVE.

JEREMIAH 4:4 [4] CIRCUMCISE YOURSELF TO THE LORD, AND TAKE AWAY THE FORESKINS OF YOUR HEART, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

NOTE: NEW COVENANT FULFILLMENT of the SHADOWS of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing the CIRCUMCISION of the HEART through faith in Christ…

ROMANS 2:25-29 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

1 CORITHIANS 7:19 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

This is the operation of GOD in the NEW COVENANT…

HEBREWS 8:10 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS [NOTE: THE SHADOW OF CIRCUMCSION]: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

CONCLUSION; The CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION is a Shadow law from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT pointing to a NEW HEART to LOVE and OBEY GOD in the NEW COVENANT. The SHADOW laws of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION from the Mosaic BOOK of the Covenant are the within CHAPTER CONTEXT BEFORE COL 2:14

Let's continue on through the chapter...

COL 2:14 SCRIPTURE SUBJECT MATTER AND CONTENT.

14, Blotting out the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

GREEK WORD MEANINGS AND WORD USE

14, “BLOTTING OUT” < G1813 ἐξαλείφω exaleipho (ex-a-lei'-fō) v. means to rub out, i.e. obliterate, erase> the “HANDWRITING” < G5498 χειρόγραφον cheirographon (chei-ro'-gra-fon) n. means something hand-written (“chirograph”), a manuscript specially, a legal document > of “ORDINANCES” < G1378 δόγμα dogma (d̮og'-ma) n. means ordinance; CIVIL, CEREMONIAL or ECCLESIASTICAL LAWS> that was against us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The GREEK WORD meanings here in this scripture show that it follows the same CONTEXT of v11-13 in relation to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7.

V14 Blotting out or erasing the legal MANUSCRIPT or document of ORDINANCES referred to here are those of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

The GREEK word for ORDIANACE is DOGMA meaning THE CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL ORDINANCES once again only found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant *EXODUS 24:7

This scripture cannot be referring to the abolishing of the 10 commandments of God’s LAW as God’s 10 Commandments are not ORDINANCES and they are not written in a MANUSCRIPT they are written on two tables of stone (Exodus 31:18). Also the chapter CONTEXT is in reference to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION once again from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT. These were all SHADOWS ALONG WITH THE ORDINANCES OF v17 pointing to Christ and the plan of SALVATION.

ORDINANCES that were against us is referring to the also referring to the PENALTY of SIN (breaking God’s Commandments which is death) and the ORDINANCES of curses written once again in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant.

What is the penalty for sin that was against us in the OLD and NEW COVENANT?

ECCLESIASTES 18:20 20, The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.

ROMANS 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

DEUTERONOMY 31:26 [26] Take this Book of the Law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there FOR A WITNESS AGAINST THEE.

DEUTERONOMY 30:19 [19] For GOD has said, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, BLESSINGS AND CURSES: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: [20] That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest OBEY his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

The death penalty is against us. So were all the ceremonial laws from the OLD COVENANT that were required to seek God's forgiveness *LEVITICUS 16. In the NEW COVENANT we are forgiven by FAITH through confession and repentance for our sins *1 JOHN 1:9; MATTHEW 3:2 . No more animal sacrifices required.

(See the list of ORDINACES for curses of breaking Gods’ Law in DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68)

CONCLUSION; COL 2:14 is talking about the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the MOSIAC BOOK of the Covenant which are SHADOW laws pointing to Jesus and God’s plan of SALVATION. This is supported also by the within CHAPTER CONTEXT and SUBJECT matter of v16 which are all CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the MOCAIC BOOK of the COVENANT and not referring to ABOLISHING God’s 10 Commandments.

That is the within chapter context of COLOSSIANS 2:11-17 let's look at the within scripture context of COLOSSIANS 2:16 next....

The within scripture and chapter CONTEXT is where we then must determine the correct application and meaning of COLOSSIANS 2:16-17 which is in reference to the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures.

COLOSSIANS 2:16 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an HOLYDAY [FEASTIVALS], or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS <plural>:

PAUL'S within scriptures CONTEXT and use of COLOSSIANS 2:16-17 is in reference to the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures.

EZEKIEL 45:17 [17] And it shall be the prince's part to give BURNT OFFERINGS, and MEAT OFFERINGS, and DRINK OFFERINGS, in the FEASTS, and in the NEW MOONS, and in the SABBATHS, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

NUMBERS 28 [9] And on the Sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a MEAT OFFERING, mingled with oil, and the DRINK OFFERING thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of EVERY SABBATH, beside the continual BURN'T OFFERING, and his DRINK OFFERING.

ISAIAH 1:10-14 [10] Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I AM FULL OF THE BURNT OFFERINGS of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[13] BRING NO MORE VAIN OBLATIONS; incense is an abomination unto me; THE NEW MOONS AND SABBATHS, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[14] Your NEW MOONS and your APPOINTED FEASTS my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

LEVITICUS 23:4 [4] These are THE FEASTS OF THE LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is THE LORD'S PASSOVER. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread…… [13] And the MEAT OFFERING thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the DRINK OFFERING thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

HOSEA 2:11 [11], I will also cause all her mirth to CEASE, HER [ISRAEL'S] FEAST DAYS, her NEW MOONS, and HER SABBATHS, and all HER [ISRAELS] SOLEMN FEASTS.

wait for it back to the NEW...

HEBREWS 9:1-12 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.... [9] WHICH WAS A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

HEBREWS 10:1-9
[1], FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, AND NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THE THINGS, CAN NEVER WITH THOSE SACRIFICES which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3], But in those SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4], For it is not possible that THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS should take away sins.
[5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS YOU WOULD NOT BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME:
[6], IN BURN'T OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE HAD NO PLEASURE.
[7], Then said I, See, I come in the VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, to do your will, O God.
[8], Above when he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, neither had pleasure therein; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;
[9], Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.

NOTE; the LAW in reference here is NOT God's 10 Commandments but the law of sin offereings from the SHADOW laws of the MOSAIC BOOK of the LAW *DEUTERONOMY 31:24-26 from the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 (Please look at the attached scriptures)

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CONCLUSION: COLOSSIANS 2 is not talking about God's 10 commandments. It is talking about the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7. No more sin offereings, and ordinances in FEAST days and Levitical Priesthood.

Sketcher said:

Sabbath is more sacred than the other days. It is literally set apart. Paul said in Christ, we are free to consider every day alike. Romans 14:5-8 therefore nullifies insistence on Sabbath keeping for every Christian by default.

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Nope. No he didn't your just repeating yourself brother and reading into the scriptures something they are not even talking about.

Where in ROMANS 14 do the scriptures say here that they are talking about God's 4th commandment *EXODUS 20:8-11? The Chapter of ROMANS 14 is talking about FOOD, and eating and not eating (fasting) connected to DAYS that MEN ESTEEM over other days not what days God esteems. The things that men esteem are an abolination in God's eyes *LUKE 16:15.

Let's look at ROMANS 14?

Some points to consider in Romans 14:1-15

[1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking (fasting).

[2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on

[3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem:

LUKE 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]

[4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments

[8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

[9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin:

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

[10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

[11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14

[12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.

[13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).

[14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14

[15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".

[17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day

[18] anyone who quotes Romans 14, has in mind 'restrictions', rather than allowances

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CONCLUSION: Nope nothing about God's 4th Commandments Sabbath. Romans 14 is about eating and not eating (fasting) connected to days that men esteem over other days and judging others. When you look at all the scriptures used to support your claims in detail. They do not support your interpretation of God's WORD.

Hope this helps.

Sketcher said:

What Jesus didn't teach was that Gentiles have to live like Jews. Paul didn't teach that either, he vehemently opposed such teaching. The logical case you are building here is that Gentiles need to follow the whole law, because these quotes are addressing the law as a whole, and the law is a package deal (James 2:10). Yet, we have the Holy Spirit telling us in Acts 15 that Gentiles are not bound to the whole law. And we have Paul in the passages I quoted (and in the entire book of Galatians) saying the same thing. I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are in agreement, and the Holy Spirit made it clear that Gentile believers are not bound by the entire law, and that includes Sabbath. I'm going to go with the Holy Spirit on this.

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Rubbish. The scriptures and the post you ignored simply prove that JESUS and all the Aposltes kept the SABBATH (Paul with JEWS and GENTILES) and they taught others to do so.

HEBREWS 4:9 SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

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ACTS 15 says nothing about new Gentiles believers not having to obey God's 10 commandments. That was never the issue in contention. The question they were all discussing can be found when reading the scriptures CONTEXT which was; IS CIRCUMCISION a requirement of salvation? It was this question that was being discussed not wheather God's people were required not to SIN (break God's Commandments).

God's WORD does not teach lawlesness (breaking God's LAW). All those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN (breaking God's LAW) will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. According to God's WORD, ALL those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD *PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

No one is going with God's SPIRIT while KNOWINGLY breaking God's Commandments. Those who KNOWINGLY BREAK God's LAW do not KNOW God and need to be BORN AGAIN *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:6-9.

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to UNKNOWINGLY break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day. Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now, <when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

Der Alter said:

Verse 26 does not say "God fearing gentiles"
οι εν υμιν φοβουμενοι τον θεον
"the [plural] in you [plural] who fear God."
Vs. 42 Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue evidently the gentiles were outside.
Verse 44 did the entire city fit into the synagogue?
Even if correct one incident in one city does not show that gentiles were generally welcomed in all synagogues. Let us remember when we first encounter Paul he was wreaking havoc in the church putting people in prison, just as Jesus said, which you seem to have conveniently ignored.

Acts of the apostles 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
Acts of the apostles 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.​

Your argument ignores what Jesus said and virtually everything I said in my previous post.

Acts of the apostles 13:45
(45) But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.​

Vs. 45 doesn't look like the Jews accepted Christian teaching. Gentile converts must have had to reject Jesus to enter the synagogue.

Acts of the apostles 16:13
(13) And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.​

Why were people at a riverside praying on the Sabbath?
I would appreciate it if you would extend me the courtesy of addressing the bulk of my post instead of only 1-2 verses.

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Why do you cite Acts 8 for? Paul did persecute the church previously but by the time we reach Acts 13 which I cited, Paul had already been converted so I do not ignore your objection but instead find it to be quite irrelevant. Moreover, despite your claim to the contrary, "God-fearing gentiles" is an appropriate translation as φοβούμενοι is a present tense participle translated as "fearing." Paul is addressing the sons of the family of Abraham and/kai you/plural φοβούμενοι/fearing God. Thus Paul is addressing both Jews and those non-Jews who are God fearing = God-fearing gentiles. You also ignore Acts 18:4 which states that Paul reasoned with both the Jews and Greeks IN the synagogue.
Acts 14:1-2
Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed. (2) But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Acts 17:1-4
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. (2) And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, (3) explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” (4) And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.

Regarding Acts 13:45, of course the Jews were jealous and didn't accept Christian teaching. In this particular instance, Gentile converts to Judaism were the proselytes/προσηλύτων referred to in v. 43 who were allowed to enter into the synagogue precisely because they were already converted to Judaism. Some of the Jews and these gentile proselytes however were now showing an interest in Paul's message/teaching which of course made the other Jews jealous/upset.

Regarding Acts 16:13, are you claiming that people can only pray at a certain place on the Sabbath? Does prayer always have to take place in a synagogue? Is prayer forbidden at a riverside? I find your objection to be vague.

Oldmantook said:

Why do you cite Acts 8 for? Paul did persecute the church previously but by the time we reach Acts 13 which I cited, Paul had already been converted so I do not ignore your objection but instead find it to be quite irrelevant. Moreover, despite your claim to the contrary, "God-fearing gentiles" is an appropriate translation as φοβούμενοι is a present tense participle translated as "fearing." Paul is addressing the sons of the family of Abraham and/kai you/plural φοβούμενοι/fearing God. Thus Paul is addressing both Jews and those non-Jews who are God fearing = God-fearing gentiles. You also ignore Acts 18:4 which states that Paul reasoned with both the Jews and Greeks IN the synagogue.
Acts 14:1-2
Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed. (2) But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Acts 17:1-4
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. (2) And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, (3) explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” (4) And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.
Regarding Acts 13:45, of course the Jews were jealous and didn't accept Christian teaching. In this particular instance, Gentile converts to Judaism were the proselytes/προσηλύτων referred to in v. 43 who were allowed to enter into the synagogue precisely because they were already converted to Judaism. Some of the Jews and these gentile proselytes however were now showing an interest in Paul's message/teaching which of course made the other Jews jealous/upset.
Regarding Acts 16:13, are you claiming that people can only pray at a certain place on the Sabbath? Does prayer always have to take place in a synagogue? Is prayer forbidden at a riverside? I find your objection to be vague.

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I think I stated my points quite clearly if you choose to misunderstand them, that is not my problem.
You are correct proselytes were formerly non-Jews. Being proselytes of course they would be allowed in the synagogues. My argument that uncircumcised, unconverted gentiles would not have been regularly permitted in the synagogues still stands unscathed. I base that on the incessant persecution of Paul, the fact that he persecuted Jews before Damascus road and the words of Jesus.
Jesus did not say that His followers would be worshiping side by side with Jews in the synagogues. Jesus said His followers would be put out of the synagogues, put in prison, persecuted, beaten, scourged and even crucified and killed but not one word about His followers worshiping in the synagogues. Was Jesus lying or did He not know what He was talking about?
I also base my position on the writings of the Jews themselves.

For me.. in 57 years.. The Father and Yeshua/Jesus and the sweet sweet Holy Spirit have NEVER said a word about SUNDAY. Never. Now MAN has...and those that do not believe in Jesus (jewish) will tell you how wrong and the sin you are doing by not keeping it on Saturday. To that I say.. praise GOD.

Hey..if you know you are to be keeping it on Sat then you BETTER do it! I have read His word.. and never get the thought the idea I am keeping the wrong day. Again GOD never said word..and YES He does talk. MAN has told us.. man will make sure you feel guilty bad evil wrong sinful.. all things GOD never does.

Reading above I wonder.. do people really " choose to misunderstand". that's the 1st thought? I know the classic "its you not me".. it really can be you not them. Maybe went to deep... maybe some are weak in the faith.. maybe some REALLY TRULY do not understand.. maybe look at the GOOD 1st. Not that I AM RIGHT YOUR WRONG its just text..

Der Alter said:

My argument that uncircumcised, unconverted gentiles would not have been regularly permitted in the synagogues still stands unscathed. I base that on the incessant persecution of Paul, the fact that he persecuted Jews before Damascus road and the words of Jesus.

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I pointed out to you that Paul did those things before he converted. That has nothing to do with his actions after his conversion in Acts 13. Either I misunderstand you or you are avoiding my counter reply.

Der Alter said:

Jesus did not say that His followers would be worshiping side by side with Jews in the synagogues. Jesus said His followers would be put out of the synagogues, put in prison, persecuted, beaten, scourged and even crucified and killed but not one word about His followers worshiping in the synagogues. Was Jesus lying or did He not know what He was talking about?

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Of course Jesus knew what he was talking about. But your interpretation demonstrates that you do not know what he was talking about. Please explain to me how Jesus' followers would be put out of the synagogues if as you claim that they were not in the synagogues? How is it then possible for them to be put out if they were never in the synagogue to begin with? Your logic is illogical.

Der Alter said:

I also base my position on the writings of the Jews themselves

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You have missed the point of Acts 15:20-21. I have cited a few scriptures in Acts which plainly state that Greeks, gentiles, proselytes were either in the synagogue or outside the synagogue as you pointed out that a whole city cannot fit into a synagogue. Nevertheless, they were either in or at the synagogues. You have not addressed those scriptures. I also previously wrote that the requirements cited in v.20 are the minimum requirements. V.20 is linked v.21 by the coordinating conjunction "For." Thus the reason for the minimum requirements in v.20 is linked to the continued teaching of the Law of Moses n v.21 where those in attendance at the synagogue would continue to grow in their understanding and application of the Law on every Sabbath. In Acts, Paul is still preaching to a Jewish audience as he had not yet turned his back on them and had not yet directed his missionary efforts as an apostle to the gentiles. Thus he taught at their natural place & time which is the synagogues on the Sabbaths. However his audience was not only Jews, but gentile proselytes, Greeks and even the "whole town." Thus James' statement in v.21 makes sense as it comes with the understanding that they should not make it too difficult and overbearing at first for the gentiles to come to faith as a result of too many restrictions initially placed upon their lives but over time through synagogue attendance (whether it be inside or outside) they will come to better understand what else is required of them.

Oldmantook said:

I pointed out to you that Paul did those things before he converted. That has nothing to do with his actions after his conversion in Acts 13. Either I misunderstand you or you are avoiding my counter reply.

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You missed the point. The persecution of Christians was going on before Paul's conversion and nothing indicates that it ever stopped. See e.g. Jewish Encyclopedia. 1-2 verses does not make an overall practice.

Of course Jesus knew what he was talking about. But your interpretation demonstrates that you do not know what he was talking about. Please explain to me how Jesus' followers would be put out of the synagogues if as you claim that they were not in the synagogues? How is it then possible for them to be put out if they were never in the synagogue to begin with? Your logic is illogical.

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You are doing what virtually all heterodox groups do, cherry picking scripture which support your assumptions/presuppositions Since you think I'm wrong why don't you explain to me all those verses I quoted. How was it possible for Christians to be thrown out of the synagogues? You must have missed the verse where Jesus said His followers would be dragged before the synagogues. Also you are missing the fact that the people Paul had been persecuting were Jews who had become Christians. They were in fact being thrown out of the synagogues. So if Jews were being widely persecuted and killed before Damascus road for being Christians why would gentiles be welcomed in those same synagogues? You are contradicting yourself you say that gentiles regularly attended synagogues then you acknowledge that Jesus said they would be thrown out. So which is it? You can't have it both ways.
Jesus did not say that His followers would be worshiping side by side with Jews in the synagogues. Jesus said His followers would be put out of the synagogues, put in prison, persecuted, beaten, scourged and even crucified and killed but not one word about His followers worshiping in the synagogues.

You have missed the point of Acts 15:20-21. I have cited a few scriptures in Acts which plainly state that Greeks, gentiles, proselytes were either in the synagogue or outside the synagogue as you pointed out that a whole city cannot fit into a synagogue. Nevertheless, they were either in or at the synagogues. You have not addressed those scriptures. I also previously wrote that the requirements cited in v.20 are the minimum requirements. V.20 is linked v.21 by the coordinating conjunction "For." Thus the reason for the minimum requirements in v.20 is linked to the continued teaching of the Law of Moses n v.21 where those in attendance at the synagogue would continue to grow in their understanding and application of the Law on every Sabbath. In Acts, Paul is still preaching to a Jewish audience as he had not yet turned his back on them and had not yet directed his missionary efforts as an apostle to the gentiles. Thus he taught at their natural place & time which is the synagogues on the Sabbaths. However his audience was not only Jews, but gentile proselytes, Greeks and even the "whole town." Thus James' statement in v.21 makes sense as it comes with the understanding that they should not make it too difficult and overbearing at first for the gentiles to come to faith as a result of too many restrictions initially placed upon their lives but over time through synagogue attendance (whether it be inside or outside) they will come to better understand what else is required of them.

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If your conclusions are correct 1-2 instances does not make an overall policy. Since according to you I am, wrong please inform me what Jesus"really meant" when He said His followers would be persecuted, beaten, scourged, crucified, killed etc? And explain to me why Jesus never said anything about gentile Christians going to synagogues? Also please explain why all that would be going on if gentiles were regularly attending all synagogues? You keep ignoring the fact that in Acts 15 Paul said twice that they gave no such command for Gentiles to keep the law. And you keep ignoring the fact that Paul was constantly being persecuted throughout his ministry, yet you insist that gentiles were accepted in all the synagogues. Big disconnect there.
Only the gentiles needed to be given the 4 minimum requirements the Jews were taught the law every week in the synagogues from the earliest times.

Blade said:

For me.. in 57 years.. The Father and Yeshua/Jesus and the sweet sweet Holy Spirit have NEVER said a word about SUNDAY. Never. Now MAN has...and those that do not believe in Jesus (jewish) will tell you how wrong and the sin you are doing by not keeping it on Saturday. To that I say.. praise GOD.
Hey..if you know you are to be keeping it on Sat then you BETTER do it! I have read His word.. and never get the thought the idea I am keeping the wrong day. Again GOD never said word..and YES He does talk. MAN has told us.. man will make sure you feel guilty bad evil wrong sinful.. all things GOD never does.
Reading above I wonder.. do people really " choose to misunderstand". that's the 1st thought? I know the classic "its you not me".. it really can be you not them. Maybe went to deep... maybe some are weak in the faith.. maybe some REALLY TRULY do not understand.. maybe look at the GOOD 1st. Not that I AM RIGHT YOUR WRONG its just text..

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You seem to be talking to me. If so please quote my post or specific statements you disagree with. The Sabbath was given specifically to the children of Israel. Those who choose to may observe the Sabbath but it is not a club to beat people over the head with because some folks choose to observe the Sabbath.

Der Alter said:

You missed the point. The persecution of Christians was going on before Paul's conversion and nothing indicates that it ever stopped. See e.g. Jewish Encyclopedia. 1-2 verses does not make an overall practice.

You are doing what virtually all heterodox groups do, cherry picking scripture which support your assumptions/presuppositions Since you think I'm wrong why don't you explain to me all those verses I quoted. How was it possible for Christians to be thrown out of the synagogues? You must have missed the verse where Jesus said His followers would be dragged before the synagogues. Also you are missing the fact that the people Paul had been persecuting were Jews who had become Christians. They were in fact being thrown out of the synagogues. So if Jews were being widely persecuted and killed before Damascus road for being Christians why would gentiles be welcomed in those same synagogues? You are contradicting yourself you say that gentiles regularly attended synagogues then you acknowledge that Jesus said they would be thrown out. So which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
John 16:2
(2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.​

Jesus did not say that His followers would be worshiping side by side with Jews in the synagogues. Jesus said His followers would be put out of the synagogues, put in prison, persecuted, beaten, scourged and even crucified and killed but not one word about His followers worshiping in the synagogues.

If your conclusions are correct 1-2 instances does not make an overall policy. Since according to you I am, wrong please inform me what Jesus"really meant" when He said His followers would be persecuted, beaten, scourged, crucified, killed etc? And explain to me why Jesus never said anything about gentile Christians going to synagogues? Also please explain why all that would be going on if gentiles were regularly attending all synagogues? You keep ignoring the fact that in Acts 15 Paul said twice that they gave no such command for Gentiles to keep the law. And you keep ignoring the fact that Paul was constantly being persecuted throughout his ministry, yet you insist that gentiles were accepted in all the synagogues. Big disconnect there.

Act 15:21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." ​

Only the gentiles needed to be given the 4 minimum requirements the Jews were taught the law every week in the synagogues from the earliest times.

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Evidently, your aging eyes (like mine) betray you. I directly asked you how can the followers of Christ get thrown out of the synagogues if they were not in the synagogues as you so claim?? I suggest you put on your thinking cap since you were the one who brought it up and I pointed out your faux pas. Please answer my question as your argument rests upon your presumption. Shall I keep awaiting your response to my question or will you continue in avoidance?